Jade posts on old house web dot com. Yes, she is inMA, but she knows restorers all over New England

Here is a link that might be useful: Heartwood

I would be extra cautious of lead paint. Restoring old windows can generate lots of lead dust and your children are a suseptible age.

See it this link helps

Here is a link that might be useful: Old Home Restoration

I have a house of similar age and number of windows as yours. I recommend prioritizing them and spreading the cost over a multiyear period, since some windows may need attention more urgently than others. For example, in my house we are doing the windows on the south side first because they are the most deteriorated.

On the replace vs. repair/restore issue, I'd lean toward repair and restoration (in a house of our houses' ages), even if it cost as much or more than replacement. A previous owner replaced some of our windows in the 60's, and they are all rotting now; the originals from 1887 need to eventually be reglazed and painted, etc, but the wood is all sound. Old growth wood--gotta love it. Even if there is some damage, if you look at restoration websites like ConServe epoxy in CT, you'll see that a lot can be done to restore something even if it looks pretty far gone.

I would get good storm windows first. Harvey tru-channel storms are (i'm pretty sure) mfg. in New England and frequently recommended. Once you've got good storms, that buys you some time to deal with your other window issues.

I know you said you don't want to do the work yourself, but I'd still look at John Leeke's website, and flip through a copy of Working Windows (by Meany), so that you know what to specify in your RFQ's, and what to ask when you interview restorers.

Also in researching what to do for my windows, I looked at a lot of youtube videos, and the one linked below really knocked my socks off. If I were hiring someone to do my windows, I'd want them to do it this way. Flawless results.

Best of luck with your windows. Please post back and let us know how it goes. I'm lucky--I only have 35 to do :-)!

Here is a link that might be useful: most efficient and neat window glaze and painting job ever

Wow....that guy has done that a few times.

Nice link.

10-4, I agree and duly noted next time I am asked the same question.

Thanks for all of the help! And the video was FANTASTIC! Can I kidnap those guys and get them to work on my house??
I wonder how much it would be to get someone in to just reglaze and paint the exteriors of the windows--do you think it would be more than, say, $150-175/window?
It's not a matter of us actually being able to do the job--I'm sure with the videos my husband and I could handle it--we're moderately handy. Problem is, I don't really want to spend my summers scraping, painting, and glazing windows. I know that sounds lazy, but with three little kids, and several side jobs on top of us both teaching full time, I feel like I'm going to miss my kid's childhood while I live in my painting clothes up on scaffolding!!
As of now, my plan is to save the windows and get rid of old aluminum storms, replacing with white vinyl storms. Then, since I'm pretty sure the wood siding is in not-so-great shape underneath the 1950's aluminum siding, to go over with decent looking vinyl siding, adding similar architectural details that we have from a picture of the house from the 40's.
We'll see how this changes over time!!

I hear you! They are only young once. Heck, last summer I did the bare minimum to stabilize/maintain my basement windows and sills, and it still took more time than I wanted (and dragged into the fall). Hire it out, and go to the beach with your kids! :-)

Glad some of the info was helpful. I bet Jade will have some references in your area.

Sarah,
we did a window rehab job this spring/summer that involved removing the sash, taking out the putty and the glass, stripping the exterior paint, priming, re-glazing, and reinstalling. The house had 37 double-hung windows, large 2-over-2's, and the charge was $700 per pair of sash.
No-one could do a thorough job for just $150. Can't happen. Too many hours involved.
Casey

If you take the sashes out it goes even faster, ad there is no reason to use tape.

It is just adding steps.

Cough....showoff...cough.

brickeyee...if I didn't use tape, it would probably look like a 3 year olds finger painting project.

You are the authority when it comes to the older windows and their restoration.

(This is why my husband tells me that the only people who should buy old houses are people without kids or people with $$$! We do not fit into either of those categories, having neither time nor money on our hands...very frustrating!)

With that rant-and-rave being said, I have gone around to almost all of the windows, and I don't think they're in terrible condition. Could they use reglazing and a new coat of paint? Sure. Is the glass falling out and are there rotten sashes? No. One window is painted shut (but we have two others in the master bedroom). Maybe 10 windows have broken ropes.
I drove around to a pricier neighborhood that has a ton of old Victorians, and admittedly, most had original windows with storms. So I think this is the route we are going.

I am still hoping to get some quotes from local people, if only for the windows on the 2nd floor--I really don't feel like living on scaffolding for the summer. As for paint, my brother-in-law is a Sherwin-Williams rep, so it's nice that we get a hefty discount there.

Thanks for all of the advice and links--I really love/hate our old house!!
-s

If there is a large enough market you should be able to find someone locally.

Expect to pay around what a replacement window would cost though.

When I do restoration I put up the storms (often with some new weatherstripping) and remove the sashes.

It is easier and faster to work on separate sashes on a bench than trying to deal with them in a window in a customer's house.

Things like epoxy and filler for consolidating old wood have pretty strong irritating smalls.
Once cured they are safe (and odor free) but the separate ingredients and curing material can make a pretty good stink.

This also reduces the lead paint issue to my workshop mainly.

When the sashes are restored they are reinstalled, and any weight or balance issues addressed at that time.

The storm provides enough weatherproofing, and a layer of heavy plastic covers the inside.
If you tape to the window casing (and not the wall) you can avoid spreading the repair 'damage.'

Thanks again, everyone!!
This may be a dumb question, but when you remove the original windows to repair, do you take them out from the inside? Popping off the almost 2" trim to get the windows out makes me nervous--I'm afraid since it's so old, it will crack!
Several of the window replacement companies said they would replace the windows from the interior, and others said the exterior. Now that I'm on a repair rather than replace course, I'm not sure if we can repair them in situ or if we have to take them out--especially those that need the ropes and weights redone.

Leaning towards storm window replacement to get rid of the gross 1950's silver aluminum storms--but am 90% sure I'm keeping original windows. My husband thinks I'm crazy, but I feel like replacing these original windows is like gouging out the eyes of the house!

--Sarah

I would not use white vinyl storms, aluminum is still the preferred material for storms. I would check out Larson's Gold Series storms. These are a nice storm for the money and Menards has them on sale frequently. Hate to repeat but since you have young children hire someone who knows how to handle lead properly. Even though working on the windows off-site on a bench would obviously reduce the exposure there would still be a dangerous amount generated on site.

Not a dumb question at all, Sarah. I didn't know this until I lived in my current house.

The windows are removed from the inside. Remember that these windows were made to be repaired and not replaced, like most things years ago. The link has a pretty good photo of how the side stops (wood strips that hold the sash in place) are removed. Just work the stops loose slowly and gently. There are lots of videos on YouTube, too. Some of them are actually worthwhile. :)

A good book on the subject is Working Windows by Terry Meany. It's available on Amazon for about $12. You'll learn a lot and even if you don't do the work yourself, you'll be able to communicate with your restorer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Removing a sash

Here's a video of someone removing the stops (at about 1:15). These stops had screws easily visible, but yours may be nailed in place.

Here is a link that might be useful: Window restoration video

Sarah, you can find all the information and support you'd ever want over at John Leeke's Historic Homeworks invaluable windows forum.

They have an active roster of professionals who have been marvelously helpful over there as we've rehabbed our entire house of old windows + storms + screens. Many excellent videos and discussions of tools and techniques. And if you really want to hire someone to do them instead, they can likely recommend someone in your area.

Here is a link that might be useful: historic homeworks windows & doors forum

Thanks again! Looking at both Larson storms (from Lowe's) and Harvey storm windows. We cannot afford wood (and frankly, don't want to add anything else that takes more maintenance since we're trying to save the original wood siding and wood windows!).
You are correct--the storms are not vinyl, they are aluminum. Probably not historically accurate, but it will make the outside look neater/cleaner than the current silver color and will provide new screens and windows for the exterior.
Any opinions on which is better? Seems like the going rate to buy and have them installed is about $170-180 per window. Does that sound about right?
--Sarah

Our research led us to the Harvey Tru Track. They are the top of the line. We got them in a bronze finish, which looks really nice.We've had them for about 8 - 10 years now, and not a single problem.

Secret: You can buy the Harveys direct and $ave from a single source that has a special agreement w/ Harvey for DIY homeowners: Boston Building Resources. They are a co-op. We ordered from them and then Harvey shipped the storms directly to us in RI. On smaller orders, you can pick them up at the closest Harvey facility.

They are easy to DIY, but even if you'd rather not, you shouldn't have to pay much to have a handyman put them up.

P.S. You definitely want to restore your windows, not replace. Once you have your storms in, take a few windows out every year. Do them yourself, or drop them off for someone to do them. Not a big deal if you pace yourself.

Lead paint has been around for generations. You have to be careful, but it's not radioactive. Ingestion is the big no no with your kids. Keep all areas clean of chips and dust where little hands can wander. You'll be fine.

Here is a link that might be useful: Boston Building Resources

OK--update--
Bought Larson Gold Series Storms in white (might regret that, but house is white and trim is white...kind of wish I had gotten a dark color but oh well!)

I think they were about $125 with a military discount and rebate at Lowe's.

Have been finding out that if you want something done right on your old home in a timely and cost-efficient manner...you really just have to do it yourself :(

Just spent the last two months working on glazing windows...think I'm up over 30 windows now!!! I'm quite the expert at this point and thinking of hiring out my services! Finding it somewhat cathartic and relaxing...my guess of what it's like to knit or crochet? Tedious but not difficult?

Have not died from lead ingestion yet. Will have my husband keep you updated if I do ;)

Sarah from Albany

Great update and even better sense of humor.

I love it!!

I agree 100% with WoW, great update.

The fact that you can keep your sense of humor and find the positives as you are working on your project says alot about you.

Kudos Sarah!

This post was edited by oberon on Fri, Dec 7, 12 at 9:23

Hey Sarah, how bout a photo or two of your window work in progress?

Did you take them out or work on them in place?

One thing I go back and forth on is whether to do the further step of removing the glazing points, removing the glass, and removing the old tiny glazing putty bed for the glass, and rebedding the glass in fresh glazing putty, then reglazing the window. It really complicates the job, but from a weatherproofing/value standpoint, it's defintely a good thing for me to do after 130 years. Otoh, it increases the risk of glass breakage, and is a ton of additional work.

Which way did you go?

If you are using the Larson flush mounts back caulking is very important especially at the head. If not done they are very prone to leakage.

I think it is foolish to keep the old windows, and add useless storm windows, when new double paned, low-E glass windows would be vastly superior, and you don't need storm windows, nor do they have window weights (with air spaces that 'leak' cold air).

Replacement windows will tilt in for easy cleaning. I can't imagine how long it takes to clean a double hung with storm windows and a screen. Additionally, the screens are much lighter, and I only have them installed in a few key windows.

I watched that video - what a PITA burning out the old glazing, scraping, installing new glazing, and painting. That new glazing is going to age and crack and fall out just like the old, especially on the south side of the house.

New windows have no external glazing to replace, and you can get the exterior aluminum clad and painted. Completely maintenance free.

No, I don't sell windows, I've been there with a similar house, but not as old.

You will never find as good a wood window as some of the historic ones so that bears consideration.

@windowsonwashington: "You will never find as good a wood window as some of the historic ones so that bears consideration"

What does that mean? Ease of cleaning? Energy loss? Ease of operation? Ease of maintenance? Who really examines the window? Who can tell from the outside 50 feet away?

Hey, if the historic ones were so great, why doesn't anyone make them anymore?

Your response is a non response. How about some facts.

Nah, I love my old windows. So happy I didn't take them out. 36 main floor windows, 4 attic, and 5 basement--ripping out those windows would feel like sticking my fingers in the eye sockets of this old house and yanking out all the character. No thank you!

We have actually had a full house energy audit done this year by ZeroDraft, and they did not recommend ANYTHING except insulating the back of the walk up stairs going into the attic and putting in a gable vent. That's it. Amazing, considering the age of this house. Also amazing how toasty out big, honkin' cast-iron radiators keep this place!

Update--have glazed all main floor windows except for 9 panes that were either broken or I broke (oops! I broke ONE, hubby broke THREE--and I did 95% of the work!)
EASIEST and most fun/rewarding home improvement project to date--and believe me, we've had MANY!
Time consuming? Absolutely!! But CHEAP! This project is all in the labor.

My process, as gleaned from several sources--not too many corners cut, but some. Mainly that I am NOT back-beading, priming before glaze, or taking sashes out.
1. Using razor blade, chipped out old putty w/goggles on. Gingerly but forcefully. Got as much as possible, but if not 100%, still ok w me.
2. Using razor blade, cleaned off all old paint.
3. Windexd both sides of window (stood back and admired my wavy, bubbly glass! The sheen is breathtaking!)
4. Using DAP 33 oil based glaze, take a Play-Doh can size amount in hand and go to town squashing it, getting it warm. 50-60 degree days seemed to work the best--over that, for me, it became too soft and squishy and became harder to apply.
5. (Watch video link I'll post next to see the technique--this guy isn't as meticulous as previous link, admittedly, but I can handle what he shows better.) holding putty in one hand and putty knife in other, press sections in t a 45 degree angle. I would do a whole pane roughed-in like this and then go back and run putty knife down with considerable force to get a nice smooth line.

Letting set until painter comes back to prime. After week 2, it was still a little squishy to the touch.

Let me just say, that even though it would have been "better" to remove sashes, remove glass, back bead, add extra points, wear a HazMat suit, prime, glaze, prime right away--this is reality and this was the best I could do. Good news is, these windows haven't seen so much love and attention in YEARS!!!

Can I take pics and post with my iPad or iPhone? I would love to show you visually as well!

Sarah--still kickin around here in Albany, NY!

Ok, new to the iPad thing and having a hard time getting YouTube link. Anyway, search "Glazing Windows" and it's the first one (by GardenFolk I think).

Also, just wanted to give some hard numbers and products for this project. Will wind up taking two BIG one gallon tubs of DAP 33 ($36)--about $1/window--we will have done about 36 windows!!
One firm putty knife. ($? Hubby bought)
Razor blade with tons of refills--probably went through one per window.
Dustpan and soft whisk broom for getting the windows cleaned out thoroughly.
Window cleaner/paper towels
Awesome boombox ;)

I did have to purchase 9 new panes of glass to replace throughout the house. We went to the Old Parts Warehouse in Albany (not-for-profit!) and rescued a bunch of old windows to salvage similar era wavy glass from. Looks SO much better than the new stuff. Got 7 big windows for $30 and will pay $5 per cut-to-size piece of glass from Dave's Windows in Delmar, NY. One doesn't need to be cut. So for $70, we are replacing and fixing all broken windows in house! I'll let you know how that goes...

Already steeling myself for not loving storms when they get put on, but better than rotting sashes, big, new, ill-fitting plastic windows with fake lites, or $800 fancy-schmantzy windows and kids that can't go to college!!!!!

"Hey, if the historic ones were so great, why doesn't anyone make them anymore? "

Many of the old windows used much better slow growth (or even virgin wood if old enough) that is far superior to ANY wood you can obtain now unless you purchase it from the folks that salvage old logs.

Salvaged old growth or virgin wood is painfully expensive though.

It is not all that hard to add weatherstripping to an old style double hung window to reduce infiltration to a modern window.

The expanse goes very high when you want true divided lights with small double pane units.

It is the claims of 'maintenance free' that attracts many to the newer windows.
The actual assumption is that in 30 years you will replace the window, unlike the old ones that can easily be repaired forever.

"Many of the old windows used much better slow growth (or even virgin wood if old enough) that is far superior to ANY wood you can obtain now unless you purchase it from the folks that salvage old logs.

Salvaged old growth or virgin wood is painfully expensive though. "

I see you put up a lot of posts on these forums, and I agree with you on many things - but not this window stuff.

Who really cares if the window is oldgrowth wood? It's not a structural part of the home - it's not a piece of furniture to be admired - it's just a window sash.

My Marvin replacement windows (aluminum clad / white) on the outside, and wood (pine) on the inside are 20 yrs old, and they look like the day they were installed.

What a pleasure is it to simply tilt the window inward (especially on the 2nd floor) to clean the glass. No more storm windows (which decrease the amount of light), no more cleaning the storm windows and the screens. The screens that I do have installed weight a couple of ounces, and are very easy to clean.

The worst home I owned had wooden storm windows - man that was a 75 year old relic - junk - only a fool would put up with them.

Doug,

The recommendation and benefit of old growth wood is not as a result of any structural improvement but rather because it is far more impervious to moisture infiltration as a result of the denser timbers.

While Marvin is certainly one of the 2 or 3 best commercially available windows, I would keep my historic wood windows if I had them and update them with new weatherstripping and insulated storm windows.

You will never find better wood than you did 100 years ago today.

I have sold wood windows for years and agree 100% with both wow and brickeye on this subject.

Strength is not the issue.

The tighter grain makes the wood far more impervious to moisture intrusion, and allows paint to stick much better.

Modern paints are more flexible then the old alkyd paints, but movement still open up the paint at joints.

Less movement is very desirable, and old growth and virgin growth are far more stable than anything growing now.

Most of the softwoods have been carefully breed for fast growth, resulting in far thicker growth rings.

Add to that the apparent lack of attention to growth ring orientation in milling and the wood is a sponge for moisture and cannot hold paint well.

ANY wood clad window is eventually going to leak and then the trapped hidden moisture is going to rot the wood.

All to save painting about every 10 years (what a good paint job lasts on decent wood).

"My Marvin replacement windows (aluminum clad / white) on the outside, and wood (pine) on the inside are 20 yrs old, and they look like the day they were installed. "

Regretfully you cannot see behind the cladding.

Even condensation is enough to supply the moisture to rot the wood.
The very cold metal condenses any moisture that comes from inside the house after it moves through the wood.

I would bet money if you tore one of those windows apart there would be a nice black layer of fungus under the metal.

But that is okay, it looks good.

And in 10 more years you can just replace them.

This post was edited by brickeyee on Mon, Dec 10, 12 at 11:31

I am so glad that you love your Marvin windows--we have one small bay window from Marvin that we added in the kitchen , but the fact is, on a house with 46 windows, the cost-effectiveness of replacing that many windows is not justified. At least not here in upstate, NY. That one window alone was over $1000.

When I priced out windows this summer (and I looked at about eight different companies), the only ones we could afford were about $300-400 per window. For "crappy" vinyl windows. Still, that was an $18,000 investment on a house that we paid $125,000 for. The numbers just didn't add up. If we went to Holbrook Designs (exclusive Marvin dealership here in Albany), the new wood windows were $800 and UP! Even if we got the $800 windows, we would be talking over $35,000!! In Holbrook's defense, they were absolutely lovely and professional on the phone and warned me of their costs before they came out to measure and give me the ubiquitous sales pitch.

Storms were about $120 each. Is cleaning four surfaces a pain? Absolutely. But my two oldest kids can help me from the inside while I work from a ladder on the outside. Might be a pain when I get older, but we do actually have window-cleaning companies around here if necessary. And in a house with three kids and two dogs, we are not exactly "neat-freaks," so deep cleaning the windows in fall and spring is plenty for me.

I thought this decision to keep my windows would be hard for me (check out earlier posts I have put on about the same thing...some as far back as 2006--that's how long I've been mulling this over!), but I am really fine with it now.

These windows have lasted for 150+ years...I'll let someone else make the decision to rip them out somewhere down the line! Not gonna be me :)

I do think it's to each his/her own, however. My sister-in-law has a charming little 1930's bungalow but likes everything new--so she had no problem replacing all of the original windows and doors with new ones--and covering up the old wood floors that needed some TLC with laminate. They love it and are happy with their choices. So that's fine!

But for me, I like the solid, somewhat imperfect but historic feeling of our house. In it's 150 years, it has only been owned by three families (one of which was my husband's grandfather), so I can just imagine all of the life events taking place there. And with the windows, I just like imagining how many people have actually looked out those same windows over the years.

I know--romantic and corny. But I can't help it--history teacher with a minor in urban renewal and you get a historic architecture sap!!

;)
S

Sarah, you're not a sap. I have 35 130 year old original windows, rotting 40 year old anderson windows in a couple of spots, and 4 Pella Architect series windows.

You would never confuse the architect series with the original windows. They look OK but they do not have the same substantial feeling of the originals. It's like wool vs. polyester. And when the cladding fails, they will rot like the anderson units are now.

Heck, I've got a demilune with custom grille in an addition. Stupid thing (also Architect series) cost over $2k. I know, what was I thinking. Anyway, there are bits of leaves and debris between the panes of glass! Every time I'm in that room, I think, how the heck did that get in there, it's supposed to be sealed and filled with Argon. Really, can you buy anything well made at any price anymore? Crazy stuff.

The 35 original windows need sone maintenance, but none have failed or rotted--in 130 years.

I'm not saying the new windows can't look good, but you have to budget for replacing them more frequently than once per 130 years, as my rotting andersons attest to.

It's a matter of taste, preference, and finances. But to say that it's better in ALL situations to replace old windows, as the other poster seemed to imply, I can't support.

And you can buy high end windows in mahogany made the old way. But I doubt even mahogany has the moisture resistance of old growth wood. I'm in the middle of restoring a mahogany sign. Everywhere there was an endgrain cut, (like, all the lettering), the paint failed and blistered miserably, wood dark and punky, after less than 10 years. And this was really top grade tight-grained, beautiful mahogany, rock hard and smooth as a baby's bottom. I don't know if even the high end window companies use mahogany that good, but even that, if cut on endgrain, primed, and painted 2-3 coats, does not withstand the elements, I can't imagine newer wood stading up very long either.

Here is a link that might be useful: Company that makes true divided light historically accurate windows--for a pric$e

" Everywhere there was an endgrain cut, (like, all the lettering), the paint failed and blistered miserably, wood dark and punky, after less than 10 years. And this was really top grade tight-grained, beautiful mahogany"

The end grain should be treated with wood hardener (epoxy or Minwax Wood Hardener).

They soak in enough to prevent water from entering.

End grain cuts in wood look like a bunch of soda straws if you look under a microscope, just waiting to suck up water.

Hardeners fill the straws completely limiting the movement of water into the wood.

Yeah but the question is, do modern window mfgs take that step when they make a new window? The guy who made this sign certainly didn't.

Not usually. They are typically using some sort of wood treatment but they do not use the hardeners to my knowledge.

"do modern window mfgs take that step when they make a new window? "

You must be kidding.

Just us old farts that rebuild old stuff to last another hundred years.

slate, unfortunately the next time they do seal the ends properly with a wood hardener will the first time they seal the ends with a wood hardener!!