I would also ask about low iron glass.

Thanks, I will ask.

We are about to order Pella replacement windows with the SunDefense Low-E glass. The sample window we looked at seemed to have a slight gray color. Does this sound right? A house up the street has very green windows and I know i dont want that.

Pella has a very odd way of describing the performance of the LoE coating options that they offer making it more difficult to know what product they are offering based on what they call it.

But based on Pella description I believe that SunDefense is LoE³-366 which does have a green tint.

I would suggest that you look into what Pella calls Advanced Low-E. I believe (again based on very limited description) that this is LoE-270 which has a much more neutral color.

Why Pella replacement windows?

Elvia Heredia If you are going with clear glass for your kitchen window, you may want to consider thermal sheers for that hour to hour and a half when you have full sun coming in. They will allow light to still come in, but are woven in a way that blocks the heat. I bought mine at Bed, Bath and Beyond and thought they could not possibly work, but they do! Beautifully! Without turning your home into a cave like some other window treatments. And you can throw them in the washing machine -- an important consideration for window coverings in a kitchen.

Thanks again Dottt1. Thermal sheers? Who would have thought. That is exactly what I want and did not even know it. Who would of thought sheers could be thermal.

I just had lo e skylights put in and can’t stand color giving off. Very bright n cool tones changes home. I feel very sterile.

@Brian Gammon Did your installed Pella patio door with the Advanced Low E Non High Elevation glass (Cardinal 270 glass) have the same yellow tint you noticed in the showroom? Is there a noticeable difference in the tint or color between your Milgard Ultra windows with the SunCoat (Cardinal 272 glass) and the patio door? I have ordered Pella Impervia windows in Black with the Advanced Low E and but now I need to purchase a 12' patio door and I don't want it to look darker than my windows. Thank you

Thank you Oberon476. I was curious about Brian’s perception of the difference between Pella’a 270 and Milgard’s 272 Cardinal Glass. Also he had also reported that he noticed a yellow tint. Oberon476, do you know if the Pella Natural Sun Low E is a cardinal glass 180 or 189?

You're welcome, and yes, Pella Natural Sun Low E is Cardinal's LoE-180.

From my reply to Brian Gammon back when - I can't think of a good reason (or even a bad one) why you might be seeing a yellow tint in the Pella glass.

Yellow tint is possible in certain laminated products, or when too much cerium is added to the batch when the glass is being floated, or in some low iron glasses (including Cardinal's), but there is nothing in any of the glass or coatings that Pella uses that would result in a yellowish cast.

My guess is that the yellow tint that he saw was related to the lighting or colors in the showroom, not the glass, because no Cardinal LoE coating (or any other that I am aware of) has a yellow tint, and it isn't something that can be requested.

i89 (not 189, and I know it's confusing) is a surface 4 (exposed) coating that is intended to to be used to improve U-factor in IG units. When used as a surface 4 coating it isn't without controversy because it lowers glass temperature by reflecting heat back into the home resulting in lower condensation resistance, but i89 can also be used much like LoE-180 as a surface 3 & 4 coating (called Di89) in applications requiring higher solar heat gain but still want an adequate level of U factor performance as well.

I’m working window quotes for new constructions and I’m so thankful I knew about this! They quoted me the “standard” low E on the glass. I asked about changing it then they showed me samples of the different types. We are going with no LowE but instead just clear. I can’t imagine not knowing, ordering windows, then seeing the tint later on. He said no one ever asks about it or notices it so it’s just what they automatically do. It blows my mind that no one asks. This picture shows a clear window on the bottom, vs LowE on top. The difference is incredible. The second picture shows different levels of LowE available.

@agbhw - I have LoE-272 which came standard with my Marvin windows. Your top picture must be LoE-366 which is only needed in the hottest sunniest parts of the country.

There is no tint visible whatsoever in my LoE-272 windows. Not from any direction or side of the house, not from the inside nor the outside. These windows replaced 25-year-old windows that had no LoE coating. Those old clear windows heated up the house winter and summer, so we had to keep the blinds drawn often, which was not a good atmosphere to live in, and when we didn’t, the sun bleached the upholstery, the wood floors and the furniture. No way in hell would I get clear glass, and most especially pay $65-70k for clear glass windows. If you are that worried, at least get the lowest-level coating of LowE-188. It’s not a big upcharge for that. I think you’re making a mistake with this huge expenditure and no LowE coating.

"We are going with no LowE but instead just clear."

in the year 2022 I cannot imagine any jurisdiction in the US allowing windows WITHOUT Low E in a new construction home.

It is listed specifically on the quote as “IG” and “clear”, in place of the first quote where it was “low E2 w/ argon”

Four pictures showing different coatings while looking through glass/coating against a white background in transmission.

single pane clear glass

LoE²-270

LoE²-272

LoE³-366

LoE³-366 looking at the glass/coating in reflection. The same sample that is in the previous picture, but lighting and background conditions changed.

The first four pictures are looking through the glass/coating against a white background in transmission.

Unless you are looking at a high solar gain application, you do not want to use LoE-180, but while some folks may find the green hue of 366 (and other triple-silver layer coatings) objectionable, very few people can even tell that their window glass is coated when dual or single silver layer coatings are used.

It is listed specifically on the quote as “IG” and “clear”, in place of the first quote where it was “low E2 w/ argon”

Keep in mind that just because you can buy it, doesn't guarantee that the building inspector will okay it.

@a and @oberon476 Thanks again for the pictures. They provide an excellent visual reference and really help to see the subtle differences between the LoE coatings. @oberon476 Sorry if you already answered this earlier in the thread, but can you please explain why the LoE²-270 (pic #2) appears to have a little bit of darker ”tint/color/hue” (in my opinion) versus the LoE²-272 (pic #3) and even the LoE³-366 (pic #4)? I understand that pic #5 is the same LoE³-366 glass under diferrent conditions. Having that last pic really provides an excellent example of how it can change. Wow!

We replaced all our windows in our 30 year old home with Gilkey windows (Cardinal) last year. Because of the green issue, we were given two samples, LoE 270 and 366. They made everything in the house look green not to mention they made the white blinds look green from the street. We decided on clear glass, no regrets.

Visible light transmittance for 272 is 72% in a dual pane or IG configuration, and VLT for 270 is 70% in an IG. Looking at the previous picture that I posted earlier in the thread (from the Cardinal website), it does appear that 270 is just slightly darker than 272, which does make sense. Dual-silver coatings tend toward purple rather than green and IMO 270 trends slightly less purple than 272. But once again, very few people can detect a dual silver coatings (270, 272). It is FAR more common for people to ask if their window has a coating when it's a dual silver, than for people to say that they can see it.

If it's a single silver coating like LoE-180, then virtually no one can tell it's there versus clear glass simply by looking. VT for two lites of clear glass is 82%, LoE-180 is 79% and it's very color neutral.

I posted the latest pictures to illustrate the differences in coating appearance between different Cardinal coatings viewed with specific and (reasonably) identical lighting and background. Also those units were constructed in a manner that slightly enhances coating color versus a standard IG. I wouldn't want to suggest that they are exactly what would be seen when installed in a home where lighting and background would be major contributor to what it looks like as well.

Also, while we are primarily looking at Cardinal coatings, there are other companies that coat glass for residential applications besides Cardinal, but they are all similar in that dual-silver coatings still tend toward purple and triple layer to green, with variations such as the difference between 272 and 270 shown here. Some are more neutral than others and may have slightly different performance characteristics. In fact, Cardinal's 366 is generally less green than most of the other similar-performance triple-silver options available.

Thank you so much @oberon476. I appreciate you taking your time to provide all of this information.

Clear glass, in Canada? The condensation will likely produce regrets. Given the lack of any visible difference in the Low-e 180 as Oberon mentioned above, you forfeited all the energy efficiency improvement potential for 2 points of VT improvement. Something that is likely not perceptible to the human eye.

@jeanie282 i feel the EXACT same way about the green-tinted low-e windows!! you took the words right out of my mouth! I cant believe there isnt more about this on the internet. I’ve been furiously googling for days trying to find some alteratives, but cant seem to find a way around these gov regulations! i dont want green windows!!!!

I just stumbled across this thread. I had new windows put in my basement 3 years ago when I finished it. They are Sunrise with some kind of lowE glass. They have a green tint only at night, which I hadn’t known ahead of time. I just replaced the rest of the windows in my house with the same. I was in my den working yesterday - it is west-facing and usually gets really hot in the afternoon - high 80s/low 90s here the last few days….. guess what I noticed…. the room was not hot! I realized it was likely due to the new windows. I couldn't believe it as this benefit didn’t even dawn on me! Bonus! BTW, during the day they are crystal clear.

@millworkman Would code typically dictate between the TYPE of Low-E you can use? (E.g. 272 vs 180)? Assuming it's still Low-E? Btw, you are very smart and give such good feedback on this forum. I've been studying this forum like crazy and you're everywhere. Amazing wisdom :)

I'm so happy I came across this thread. I'm building a home in Hawaii where ALL of the doors and windows are under a 10' long overhang to protect it from rain, so I have no need to darken the house with any tints or shades in the glass. There's a fantastic ocean view, and I want the clearest glass possible while still meeting the Hawaiian codes. From reading this, it seems like Low-E 272 or 180, LOW IRON would be my best bet, thanks to @Windows on Washington Ltd & @millworkman for mentioning the low iron. I wish my state made it easy to access their code requirements for this type of thing!

Hi @Brian Gammon I'm so glad you found an option that produced beautiful results. I'm curious, did you consider Low-E 180 as well? You mentioned going with Low-E 272 and removing the "3rd film" . Does that decision produce a "clearer" window than Low-E 180? I'm still learning, as you can probably tell. I'm hoping to get clear Low-E glass for ocean views at my upcoming Hawaii home.

@Elizabeth Williams,

Per what I suspect Brian Gammon meant, LoE²-272 is a dual silver coating whereas LoE³-366 is a triple silver layer coating, so that "removing the 3rd film" simply means selecting 272 (dual) over 366 (triple) coating.

And to your other question, code is not going to directly dictate the type of LowE to use in a given situation, but code may dictate specific requirements for a given situation that different LowE coatings may or may not meet, so that you may need one or another coating to meet that code.

Without overly rehashing what I said in previous posts along this thread, normally I would tell someone in your environment to stay as far away from LoE-180 (or any single sliver coating) as possible because the intent of that coating is to maximize solar heat gain, versus dual, or triple, or quad silver layer coatings are intended to block solar heat gain. Unless you live at higher elevations on the big island, you need to avoid solar heat gain, not acquire it.

However in your case those 10' overhangs surrounding your home means that you aren't likely to be worried about excessive solar heat gain on your windows. Shading is a wonderful thing when the sun is up and it's HOT, so that 10 feet of shading might make 180 a possible option strictly for the U factor and visible light transmission performance.

Based on what you have implied in your posts, because of energy code requirements you need to install dual pane IGU windows with a LowE coating that meets U factor and SHGC standards and you are looking for maximum visible light options. Here is another possible option for you to consider.

Are you familiar with laminated glass? If so, have you or anyone ever looked into the laminated glass option for your windows, perhaps as storm protection? Would you be interested in using a single laminated glass lite rather than using IGU's in your build?

Laminated glass will offer better storm/impact protection, better home security, better sound performance, and with an imbedded LoE coating as well as surface 4 LoE-i89, it should easily meet U factor and SHGC building code without requiring an IGU, in your environment.

With those 10' overhangs protecting ALL of your windows, SHGC becomes a non factor except for limited exposure to east and west windows during sunrise and sunset, something easily controlled if need be.

Question is can you request a variance from the (assumed) SHGC requirement from the building inspector based on the 10' overhangs? If granted the only coating you would need would be the surface 4 i89, and that coating is absolutely invisible to your eyes. No one will ever know that it's there except you, and you can't see it anyway.

Thank you @oberon476

As always, a wealth of information.

I live in central Florida (Tampa) and built a guest house in 2021. I too was concerned about the green look of Low-e glass.

During my investigation, I found that I could pass the FL building code using Low-e 272 glass IF I installed fixed glass or casement windows, as they were more efficient than single or double hung windows with the same glass. If using single or double hung windows, I would be forced into Low-e 366.

I ended up installing black casements with 366 glass and have been very happy with them. The green only shows up if you put white window treatments.

If I ever replace my primary house windows, I will use 272 on north windows and windows under 8-12’ patios and will use 366 glass on my windows with uncovered southern exposure. (In my house, you will not be able to see the different windows at the same time.)

The temperature in our guest house is much more comfortable than our primary house due to the dual pane and low-e:)

Thanks WoW!

Thank you for the feedback @Karen

I think the "green tint" concerns are mostly overblown. Your experience validates that assertion.

@Windows on Washington Ltd

“I think the "green tint" concerns are mostly overblown. Your experience validates that assertion.”

I really think your statement is very dismissive to those who find the green tint very objectionable (along with the other negative aspects of these windows which make them hard to live with….the high reflectivity as another example). Maybe you are just not that discerning. To to say it is overblown is truly your own personal opinion. For every 100 individuals who are not bothered by it, I can show you 100 that ARE.

@nidnay - I also was very concerned before building. I drove the neighborhoods and hated the look of the green windows. And I noticed that some house windows seemed more green than others. very green; more so than others. Not sure if there is more noticeable difference with white frames or w different window companies.

I can detect a difference in mine between no glass and glass, but not dramatic.

@Karen

Even more troubling than the green tint is the fact that it is EXTREMELY difficult to see clearly out of the windows due to the high reflectivity. Some of my rooms have windows on three sides and the glare and reflection is so intense that is impossible to see clearly out the window…..it’s really horrible.

Reflectivity index of clear glass over clear glass IGU is 15% out and 15% in

Reflectivity index of LoE 366 coated glass over clear glass IGU is 11% out and 12% in

The coated glass is less reflective than clear glass

I can detect a difference in mine between no glass and glass, but not dramatic.

Agree and also looking out an open window next to coated glass results in a more dramatic difference than looking through a clear glass IGU and a coated IGU in the same setting, especially when the coated glass is at an angle from the observers perspective rather than looking straight on at the glass.

@Nidnay

Allow me to quote my actual words so that the record can accurately reflect what I actually said.

• I think the "green tint" concerns are MOSTLY overblown.

Please note the bolded section that says "mostly". Note, I did not use a descriptor like: entirely, totally, completely, etc.

I said mostly. Which would imply that the majority of folks do NOT find issue with the green tint associated with a properly specified Low-e range. If you will read over my previous posts in this thread, you will note that I have validated the concerns of some posters with regards to tint/hue and stressed that folks look at sample versions of the glass before making a decision. For those that are light and color sensitive, the difference between a 2 and 3 coat Low-e CAN BE enough to aggravate those sensitivities.

As to your assertion of:

• For every 100 individuals who are not bothered by it, I can show you 100 that ARE.

That is conjecture and without ANY evidence to back of that statement. Short of your supplying some data to validate that claim, I am going to place that in the "not validated" and "unconfirmed" category. Having done what we do for nearly 20 years, I can tell you that I have personally dealt with clients on this concern on exactly three (3) occasions. Extrapolating that math, that leaves us at about a 5000:1 ratio vs. your claimed ratio of 1:1. I am sure my actual observed and validated ratio of 5000:1 is NOT accurately representative of the number of folks that would have concerns about the tint because we educate and work with our customers on glass selection, however, I can bet you that your claimed and not data validated number of 1:1 is far more inaccurate.

@Windows on Washington Ltd What would be your recommendation to me, for the type of Low-E to be used on my Hawaii home ? My home has a 10' long overhang, wrapping evenly around all 4 sides of the home, so ALL of the sliding doors and windows will be shaded. It was designed this way to keep the house cooler and shielded from the rain. I want the most light visibility, because I have spectacular ocean views. Since these are sliding doors, there will always be two panels on top of each other when open, in the line of my ocean view. From reading your comments around this website, it seems you MIGHT recommend to me something like 180 or 272, but I'm also unsure if 180 would even pass the Hawaii code. I have such trouble understanding all of this,.. thank you kindly for reading! :(

According to this...you are all Cooling Degree Days.

https://www.climate-zone.com/climate/united-states/hawaii/honolulu/

That said, the necessity for passive solar should be next to nil. I would check with your builder on code. Don't do this twice. But I also wouldn't conflate "visibility" with "visible transmittance". The VT number is mostly talking about light and I feel like you are thinking that the Low-e 272 glass is going to be less "clear" than the Low-e 180 coating. Not the case here. Just a few less lumens passing through the glass is all.

@Windows on Washington Ltd Exactly, that is important to me, too: the lumens. Since I have the 10' shaded overhang over everything (which by default, makes things slightly darker inside), I'd love the greatest amount of lumens coming in as possible with whatever glass I choose.

So as a comparative, double pane and clear glass is only going to let in about 82% of the light. So a Low-e 272 is only costing you 10% by comparison over clear glass. Now, that said, you can easily sacrifice that 10%, or more, with poor selections in terms of operators and window brands. For example, a well regarded replacement window that is sold at Home Depot, sacrifices at least 10% more light than the brand that we use most often because of the considerably larger frame size. So be cognizant of operator type and brand when you are ultimately wanting the most light you can get.

@Windows on Washington Ltd That makes sense. I went to your website and couldn't find a list of brands you sell. I'm looking for aluminum framed sliding windows with narrow sightlines. I'm aware of the uber luxury windows by Vitrocsa, Styline, and Skyframe, and their frames are about 1" thick. Gorgeous. But of course, the prices are as much as my entire home cost. I'm wondering if there's a narrow frame out there, maybe 2" thick, from a more economical standpoint. Milgard and Andersen are thicker than that.

What brands do you sell on your site that have the narrowest frames, could you share?

It's funny because I live in a old, modest beach house in Florida that JUST SO HAPPENS to have come with super narrow 1.5" frames. Even on my 6' x 5' sliding window. The frame is just 1.5" thick. Love it! But the company went out of buisness.

Look at Steel Look Arcadia Aluminum, T225 would be the series I do believe.

@millworkman hi! I looked at the 2820 and the 500 series, both are too thick of frames for my sliding windows. I have a feeling I won't find anything around 1-2" sightline unless I cough up the big bucks and go with Vitrocsa or something.

Did you look specifically at the T225?

@millworkman They don't have sliders in this series. Yeah, I'm in a tricky situation

Any recommendations for a condo development built in 1999 (no LowE) with individuals replacing their windows? The architectural review committee is trying to halt a checkerboard aethestic that is starting to appear (due to improper approvals and enforcement) since individuals have selected different window manufacturers (green/blue/bronze LowE) and different coating levels of LowE. Since no one must replace windows and many of the originals will not be replaced for a long time, this is a mess. The design committee is tempted to recommend that all must replace their windows with the original non-LowE glass. Anyone else dealing with this in a condo development?

" The design committee is tempted to recommend that all must replace their windows with the original non-LowE glass "

Most building dept's will not issue permits or CO's without the Low E windows today.

Thank you, but LowE is only required in commercial buildings in this area.