I think the difference is that men often internalize their anger.

It's often been said that men have affairs for sex, women for emotional intimacy. I read an interview with a marriage counselor who said that men who have been cheated upon or whose wives leave them often say they never saw it coming. It's only when the counselor probed further that she discovered the wife had spent years trying to get her husband to talk and share emotional intimacy. Many men are uncomfortable with that, so they resist and resist and resist and gradually the wife just gives up. He thinks she's resolved the issue. Years later, she has an affair or leaves him and he thinks it's come out of the blue, when in reality it was brewing for a long, long time.

I suspect your patient knew, deep down, that his wife had emotional needs that weren't being met and on some level understood why she reached out to someone else.

Women have a much harder time viewing the other woman with equanimity because while the husband views affairs as sexual in nature, for her his cheating is all wrapped up in how she feels about herself. (Why wasn't I good enough? What's wrong with me? Am I too fat? Too ugly? Too nagging, etc.) Women focus on the other woman because they see in her all things that their ex somehow though they were lacking.

Does that make sense? That's always been my theory.

Do men really have the ability to just let stuff roll off their backs like that?

Absolutely not. Even though my fiance had nothing to do with our divorce, my ex is insanely jealous of him and refuses to see that his behavior has an impact on my sons' relationships with my fiance. It takes an enormous amount of compassion and equanimity to forgive and move on.

Ann

I have read of too many cases of men murdering the OM and/or the cheating wife to believe that men are more likely to let infidelity "roll off their backs."

As you know, I disagree that he "took the high road" by hiding the infidelity from his daughter when she was old enough to understand the concept.

I think there is more here than meets the eye. I think not fighting his exW when she wanted to move may have just been the easy road. I would question the depth of his love for his daughter if he is ok with her not visiting.

Why exactly is he sharing his life history with his dentist? How does he even talk when his mouth is full of implements? I can't imagine having a discussion like that with my dentist - or talking about anything that doesn't involve teeth for more than 20 seconds.

I know it's surprising, but doctors and dentists really do
talk to their patients, and we are intersted in what is going on in their lives.

When I sit down with a patient, I say, "what has been going on in your life, since I last saw you? Catch me up."

A divorce is very important, because it tells me how much stress the patient is experiencing, and that can impact their health. I ask about marital status, children, education, smoking, drinking, drugs, sexual orientation,
family health history, medications, allergies, every body system, past medical history, and current symptoms.

Maybe you have been seeing the wrong doctor / dentist.

That kind of information is VERY important to every doctor that I know. So much of the body's physical health depends upon the patient's emotional well-being.

TOS said "I think there is more here than meets the eye. I think not fighting his exW when she wanted to move may have just been the easy road. I would question the depth of his love for his daughter if he is ok with her not visiting."

That's BS - He's putting his child's mental health before his own feelings and needs.
Does he have any contact with her? e-mail/mail/phone?

I have never had a dentist or even a doctor ask that kind of information, for myself or my kids. They might ask my kids questions like how's school going, and do you wear a helmet when you bicycle, but that's about it.

I once had a hygienist have the nerve to ask me whether all my kids were by the same man because she couldn't believe I had that many. My dentist's job in particular is to clean/check my teeth, and to convince me to get an unnecessary wisdom tooth extraction and only tell me afterwards that it would take a year to heal.

Ok.

I hear criticism all the time that health care providers don't spend enough time with patients and don't listen.

I'm glad to hear that you are happy.

Once again, TOS wants to control the flow of were the thread will go. This didn't start out to be a thread on what your health care provider should talk to you about.

I tend to agree with TOS, that possibly this man had less of a connection with his DD than most moms. I know my X is happy just to have DD for pr or photo ops (birthday at his club, holiday meals with his parents, his employer outings) -- ie anywhere he wants to show, my DD loves me, I am great. Other than that he is at best ambivalent.

And I have a great relationship with my dentist, we talk (his wife is his office manager) about kids, etc. I can not imagine anyone talking to dentist about spouse leaving him. Wierd.

My DH NEVER tells me when something is bothering him, especially when it deals with his son or the EW. I can always tell by the way he's acting that something is going on with them by the way he retreats into himself. On the other hand, he's very verbal about my DD's father. Example, if ex is late picking her up, DH always says he's going out to tell him off or if DD calls and says she's bored while visiting, DH gets huffy and tells me he's going to take care of him when she's dropped off. DH doesn't tell off his EW or set his SS straight but yet feels the need to flex his muscles with my ex and DD. In our case, I think my DH chooses to ignore what is uncomfortable for him (SS & EW) and redirects his anger at them towards my ex.

Regarding effective doctors/dentists like Dana & southern:
After my DH had been kicked out by EW, she had him arrested for trespassing in *his* house while he was gathering *his* belongings (case was dismissed once the judge saw the deed to the house and EW was severely reprimanded as was the arresting officer). After it happened, he had a stress related stroke. His MD knew exactly what caused it as soon as he found out what was going on his life.

OT.. but ... if they grind their teeth I am sure the dentist would inquire if they are stressed and try to find out why they are grinding etc.

Many many reasons why drs inquire about personal stuff ... not a dentist but I know dental health effects the rest of your body. Bad teeth = bad digestion etc.

I know a couple, whose decree said mother couldn't move out of state with the children... mom wanted to buy a house in another state ... 10 minute walking distance from dad's house ... he prostested. Mom then moved with in the same state ... only this time it was a 2 hour ride there and he was responsible for all transportation. Told him you should have just let her move 10 minutes away. After 3 years of driving 4 hours back and forth she wanted to move again to the next state again 10 minutes away he finally agreed ... now the kids are so close they can visit mom and dad every day they are within walking distance of each house. Only 10 minutes away but live in two different states.

LOL about where this thread has gone!

TOS, many of my patients know a lot about my life - my operatories are filled w/ photos of all nine kids in my mix (3DSs,3DNs,#skids) and questions about the kids aren't at all uncommon. In return, while they are getting numb, ie, I ask them how life has been treating him. They all know about our fire (obvious from the office's appearance), our contracting woes ("Please tell us you're in your house by now!" is a common phrase for any seasonal patients who left before we moved...) When my g-father passed away, I received so many cards/flowers at the office - they all knew my g-father, that he was to have a room in our house, and I often talked about all of his crazy antics. Nearly every card said that they can imagine how tough this was for me as I always spoke of that man w/ such fondness and often humor - he brought a smile to my face whether he wanted to or not!

Some people may be uncomfortable w/ this level of personal matters being shared, but I've never had any complaints. Maybe a few have quietly left the office if they didn't care for me - but you can't please all the people all the time.

Ironically, this patient was having a lot of TMJ symptoms when the DD first moved. The first two questions deal w/ any trauma (car accident) and stress (more than normal.) What I never realized until yesterday was that his wife left for the OM. I was going to fix him up w/ a friend of mine way back when as I think that much of him, but she is not interested in any stepparenting journey, so I dropped it.

I knew the DD fairly well - she'd be w/ him all the time. I don't believe he took the easy road out. Had I been hearing this story from a third party about their friend/patient, I know, to myself, I'd think, "Yeah, he remarried and is fine w/ not having visitation, just enjoying his honeymoon phase and not having a kid around..." but that's really not the case here. I also treat this patient's father who has reiterated how tough this move has been on him.

I think Lily's right about the reasons women vs. men cheat. I have joked that in retrospect, I can understand to some degree why my DH's ex did just that - DH can be emotionally unavailable, though he's much improved since our couseling began. And, if he never really loved her as he loves me, I'm sure he was MORE unavailable. I don't think there's ever an excuse to step out on your vows, but I'm not as condemning of his ex like I once was. No, I'm not thinking about cheating - we're on a major upswing!

This patient I was discussing and I got to talking because of the babysitting issue I had Sunday when I went to golf. It's the second time in the past 3 years I've been on the course and he asked why - that's when I told him about never having a sitter, etc. and he said that he understood that all too well - finally asked if I recalled why he and the ex divorced, then elaborated. It hit me like a bolt of lightening to hear it summed up like that! I'd give anything for a great sitter besides my parents so DH and I could reconnect a bit.

Anyway, I do think that his revealing of his ex's affair was done so tactfully and not shared til now - I've been treating him over 10 years. On the other hand, we have a classmate in my oldest's class who, despite not knowing you at all, will say, "My DD's father left me when he got his secretary pregnant." Men aren't usually that, well, blunt? BTW, I just asked DH how much his patients know about his personal life and he said, "They know you're my wife and that I have a lot of kids - but I'm sure they don't know the details of our life that your patients do! And they don't tell me the details of their lives that your patients do!" LOL - it's the same w/ the staff - I'll know all the dirt in their home lives immediately while DH is completely in the dark. Maybe people open up more to me as a woman and as a younger practitioner (who's aging fast!)

Dana

I took my daughter away from her father to a different country, very far away. It was tough for him to give a permission for us to leave, but he did. Since then she has been spending at least 3 months total of the year with her dad. Her living there 2,5 months in a summer and 2 weeks in Christmas break and him flying here some othewr time during the year. And of course emails and phone calls. In fact she is with him now before college starts. Somehow they remained close to each other despite the distance and it was always great time for them to be together when they could. And he was always involved as much as he could in her life. Now when he has another child it is additional source of happiness for her to be with her dad, she loves her little brother. It is not the best arrangement to raise a child, but I would not want anyone to judge me or my ex for doing it. Things sometimes turn this way.

I admire the way you've handled your relationships. I think it is VERY hard to split up and have to allow your child to move far away. I suppose in some cases, it's tough to keep that closeness you feel together once separated by distance, but I commend your DD and your ex for making it work.

Does she get 'bored' when she visits her father? Has she ever taken a friend or something there to help her while he's at work? I was just interested as I was thinking of suggesting this to my patient as he is troubled by it all. I thought someone here lived in RI and was allowing the DD to bring a friend - brought the bf last year?

How beautiful that your DD loves her little brother. I think her attitude speaks volumes about the lady raising her!

D

Thanks for the nice words!

She used to get bored when she was younger, but she also has grandparents (my ex parents in laws) who she spends time with as well. And my ex runs his own business so when my DD was younger she would go to his work place with him. He travels for work, so she would go with him, plus he would take vacations more when she was there. Running his own business allowed him more flexibility. Plus some of my ex's friends have children too, so she would spend time with those kids. When she got older she made her own friends there to hang out with. Plus living in the city makes it easier. You can just go places yourself during the day, not when you are a little kid of course, but being a teenager.