You sound very reasonable to me. I'd even go so far as to say you sound very patient, creative, and firm without being 'stupidly stubborn.' Frankly, I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing -- except that it's not working.

Have you had a frank "I'm concerned -- What is your take?" discussion with the girl's mother? I'm wondering also if maybe this isn't some form of 'second-hand' backlash against your son? She's needling you because she wants to - but for some reason can't - needle her stepfather?

One other question - Is the 'extra credit work' and brown-nosing only when she gets into trouble? Or is she generally eager-to-please and possibly more clumsy and insecure?

thanks for the help sweeby.

I have had this talk. The mother is so embarrassed, to be honest I just feel sorry for her, and I admit I am all too concerned about not damaging a relationship with a potential daughter in law. But I do believe that your feelings are somewhat correct.

And yes, it was blatant brown nosing, she is so not eager to please. I was cleaning the garage right after they moved in, and it was a huge job, and we had a repair man here, it was a wild day, I knew she made her self lunch all the time at home, and asked if she could make herself a sandwich when she asked for lunch, she informed me she didnt know how, her mother always made her lunch, I said Honey, are you sure about that, she said she could make a snack but not a lucnh, the next day she went with her mom to work, and she made both of them a big sack lunch, with sandwiches. and I told her the next day I did appreciate the help, but if she felt it was somehow going to affect my need for her to talk to me about these things, It would definately not. I told her that these things had affected me strongly enough that I needed her to convince me that we could make a new fresh start with a bit of trust and mutual respect, that when you hurt someone, it was important to make it right on their terms, trying to manipulate me into accepting something else, would only upset me further, as it would any friend or teacher.
She claims to understand. but yet she has never once apologized, or shown one ounce or remorse or concern. May be this kid just hates me. I don't know, at this point, I dont know if i care. I feel just awful about feeling this way. I would love to have a nice relationship with her, but not like this. I just want to be able to go to the bathroom in my own house with out rushing out to see what the hell shes into now.

OH, sorry, I am really trying to be short here, I will be more so next time, I really appreciate the help, I am so at a loss for what to do.

laurily

I don't know. I think she may be crying out for some real help? Does the mom feel these issues are new or has she has problems in the past w/ dishonesty, etc?

I do think 10 is a little young to feel cornered, and she no doubt did feel cornered by you a couple of times. It doesn't excuse what she has done - I'm sure you'd prefer a tearful, "I'm sorry. I didn't want to lie, but..." to the blank stare turn short term maid scenario that's being played out.

How much longer will they be w/ you? I think that might influence whether or not I lock my door (which is ridiculous to have to do in your own home!) and move the computer into my room...

What's your son's take on this? Has he had issues w/ her? So sorry for this strain - relationships are tough enough w/o all this added to them.

Dana

How much do you know about the little girl's life prior to your son's involvement? About the girl's mother?

I guess the reason I'm asking is that the girl's behavior just doesn't sound normal and healthy - or even like normal rebellion, fear of being punished, or any other type of 'typical' problem. It sounds incredibly manipulative on the one hand, yet also lacking some core understanding of human nature on the other. Are there other signs that she's not 'psychologically typical'? Problems at school? Does she have normal friendships? Trouble with adademic or coordination issues?

You are right on track, and I really admire the words you use with her when she has done wrong. I would continue just what you are doing, and not really talk to her mother about it. Kids learn what they can and cannot do in certain situations or with certain people if you are consistent and firm. I have two nieces that were taught few manners. When they were young, they learned the rules of my house. I never backed down on my three simple rules -- you can only eat in the kitchen or outside, clean up after yourself, and don't tease the dogs. We had a few missteps, but they realized pretty quickly that breaking those rules was unacceptable, and when they followed them, they had a great time. (Of course I am certain I was called Mean Aunt Wendy behind my back ;) I didn't care what they were allowed to do at home....it wasn't happenin' in my house!

Regarding the computer, it is very simple to lock her out of it. You can set it up to require a password to get on. If you want to know how, just ask. I'll need to know which operating system you're using -- ie, WindowsXP, Windows2000, Mac...

At 10 years old, this girl sounds too sophisticated with her lies, denials and procrastinations. She could have a personality disorder which would contribute to her attempts at manipulation. At the least she sounds totally passive-aggressive. There may be nothing you can do but stand your ground in your own home and maybe try talking to her mother to see if therapy is a possibility. You can also read up on manipulative persons and how to deal with them. There is a great book out called "In Sheep's Clothing: Understanding & Dealing with Manipulative People" by George K. Simon, Jr. PHd.

to answer:

Son and daughter relationship is the best one she has here. They have a nice thing together, he is very giving of his time, He is patient and kind with his discipline, and doesnt treat her like a baby. When her mom is not around she loves to be with him, they always have a science project in the works. When mom is here, she sort of tattles on any thing she can, to make him look bad. He knows its just jealousy, and doesnt give it much attention most of the time. He patiently tries to get her to see how it isnt a cool thing to do. So yes, it looks like there are issues with son, but I don't think that is the problem at all. I am going to sound crazy, but I think every thing she does is in an effort to control her mom. She needs more attention from her, son has tried to make mom accept it, I have stayed out of that. And to be honest, she is so damn difficult, it is tough to judge the mom too much. When nother does give her time, much of it is spent arguing and whining and throwing fits to get things or go places. If she learns she gets to go to a fair or shopping the next day, she spends every minute trying to get everyone to give her money or something new to wear, and getting to go to every other fun place she can come up with, when the day comes for the fair, theres no way the outing measures up to all she tried to manipulate, and every one has a crappy time. They have come home with her crying over a not getting her way every single time, I swear this. It's just an awful ritual. And, tho I see areas where mom could do things different, as a potential mother in law, I strongly feel it is not my place to point them out. That whole thing is so fragile between women.

She is in trouble with school for not completing homework, and at home for lying about doing it much of the school year. I have never seen any sign of friends. When she moved in here, I offered to let her invite someone over, picking them up, what ever it took, and told the mom the same, eventually they both said all her friends were away for the summer. My gut doesn't think so.

The times I have seen her with a neighbor I was hoping would become a friend, she is controlling and gets mad enough to scream at her. She took this twice and we have not been able to get her here again.

There are issues that explain her behavior, I am not sure of all of them, but the ones I feel are of concern, are things kids have always had to deal with. She needs more time with mom. My son has told the mom this lots of times. She makes at attempt for a while and it slips thru the cracks, a common thing in parenting. As for me talling her this, I strongly feel that the relationship between Mother and wife or gf is so fragile that I am not the one to give her alot of correction on her parenting.

And I strongly believe, what ever the excuses are as to why this girl behaves this way, when she is in the real world, no one is going to give a rip as to why she is selfish, or steals, or critical and jealous. And when they refuse to be her friend she may not ever understand why. So, and please correct me here if I am wrong, but I hope that the belief the behavior is unaccceptable, and it doesn't matter why, is a workable theory. She has been given many chances to stop it all before the consiquences became unpleasant, she knows that, she never let up, it was always full steam ahead. I think she absolutely cannot stand to be given a rule even if its about a computer that doesnt belong to her, and she disobeys for the power of seeing if she can make you back down. She wants to control everything. Thats my gut feeling lol And I don't have a clue how to change it in her.
Hope this answered things guys, I thank you, It's so nice to hear others ideas.

And please know, I gotta being doing something wrong here, so telling me so or pointing out my own bad attitude or what ever you may see, will be taken as an effort to be helpful, I just want to fix this, if I have to see my own faults to do it, hey, no surprise lol

thanks
laurily

Her life is she was raised by a very young single mother, who put herself thru dental assisting school and has managed to give them both a pretty descent life. She had a long term thing a year before my son met her. The girl has never mentioned this man or if she cared about him. My belief is that his absence gave her more time alone with her mom so she was great with it. The mom suffers guilt over working, and it's not warranted, her hours are no worse than any one else's, but going to daycare after school for an hour was a constant complaint, and she would tell every one she could how awful it was that her mom made her go.

I belie

I think that the mother needs parenting classes and the girl needs a good psychiatric workup. I appreciate that you're trying to help, but I'm really, really not sure that you can. This ball is in the mother's court whether she likes it or not and she will have to deal with it sooner or later. Where is the girl's father?

...and with this woman's parenting skills, I would hope that your son doesn't consider reproducing with this woman.

The mother is in over her head, and w/ the guilt issues (working, not enough free time, no father in her life - I'm guessing), she doesn't know where to turn.

I think you're right to be careful and mindful of many MIL/DIL(gf) issues. But, I'm not sure what you CAN do.

Maybe a little chart and the talk that you could help this young girl earn something of her own could help. Give her some tasks/ w/ some bonus for obeying all the house rules. If she's going on the computer uninvited, that's "one", at three strikes, she loses something.

This would probably work well w/ any normal child, but my guess is that this 10 y.o. is beyond any reasonable helping. I'd give it a try, then consider some professional help for her. It sounds like she truly fears no consequences which is why I earlier suggested it was all a cry for help. But, how to dare tread those waters w/o upsetting the whole deal is very tricky.

Maybe, should nothing else work, you honestly speak w/ the mother and your son and say, "A friend of mine had a child/g-child who distributed a little of these growning pangs. They really loved Dr. ________ and felt he/she helped them through these rough times."

Don't know what else to do. I honestly don't think you've done anything wrong. I do feel the girl felt cornered in the computer/hat instances, but what else could you do? Ignore it? That would be OK for a short visit, but isn't helping in the long run.

How long are they there and do you think the couple will marry?

D

You sound like such a good parent/grandparent! Truly, I can't imagine what you could be doing 'better' -- and that's the distressing part.

I like the idea of a reward for obeying the house rules for a certain period of time -- staying off the computer, not whining (or stopping instantly). Those types of systems need to be simple to administer, and have a pretty quick payoff, but they can work.

There are two other strategies that might come in handy on certain occasions. The first is exaggerated imitation. When she starts whining or pouting or otherwise behaving very inappropriately (and you're alone with her), turn the tables on her and do an exaggerated imitation of her whine. To be effective, you have to really, really ham it up and have a little twinkle in your eye and a tiny smile in the corner of your mouth so she will know it's a loving tease. Invite her to "Now you be me!" (Though many kids will switch automatically.) It may help her see the ridiculousness of her behavior, or if not, at least provoke a good giggle.

The other tactic that has worked well for me is for persistent nagging. She asks you once and the answer is "no". She persists. You respond by asking her "What will my answer be?" If she still persists, ask her "What will my answer be if you ask me again?" Repeat as needed. (If you can bring a sparkle into your eye, you may be able to get them laughing in addition to accepting the 'no') It usually doesn't take long for a kid to realize that one "no" will never be replaced with anything else. Of course, that only works if she's asking, not for sneaking.

I'm wondering what would happen if you 'stole' something of hers. Something stupid and pointless, but that would obviously be missed, like maybe her pillow or toothbrush or shoe. You'd have to leave a pretty good trail so she'll know it was you. Then when she catches you, simply apologize and ask her to forgive you. 'Admit' that you did it because you were mad that she stole your ___, but that you know it was childish and wrong and you won't do it anymore if she doesn't. Who knows?

I'm totally guessing on that last suggestion, but the first two have worked well for my boys.

Good luck --

hi every one, I appreciate your input here so much.

I agree that there is not a whole lot I can do. Having you guys validate that feeling has let me get a grasp on the idea that I can't force someone into being the kind of person I would like to see them be, especially since I believe she will put up so much resistance, that I would have to be quite tough, and though I believe that is sometimes the most loving thing to do for a child, I don't feel the mother can admit things are as bad as they really are. It would be tough for any mom, I am sure.

So I had this cowardly epiphany that school will start in 5 weeks, and that I can just keep locking my doors, and computer and be watchful and get thru it.

Vistaip, I had completely forgot the trick of imitating rediculous behavior, I did that with my youngest son a few times, and it was a great teaching tool with out having to get too negative. Thanks, I'll be doing that one I am sure.

I appreciate you putting up with my griping, places like this remind me the world is still a pretty caring and friendly place.

Thanks again

Laurily

Hello:

Thank you every one for the help.

Notwicked, I can not thank you enough for your input. I went to a couple book stores, and had to order it, but I did look at other information on manipulation, and I think you are right on target. I think I am one of those people who attracts manipulators like a bee to honey, and working on that for myself sounds like a solution I may learn from. I thank you, so much.

thank you all!!

laurily

Sounds like she could have oppostional defiance disorder.

Here is a link that might be useful: ODD

Laurilye, you sound like a really decent person. Everything you've been through with your step grand-child, I've been through with my step-daughter. The going through our personal items, the stealing, the lying etc. etc. all at the tender age of ten.... worse when she got to thirteen, then she would leave the used sanitary napkins on the couch in the family (where she got that from, I have no idea). My husband would never say anything, he'd get angry but he wouldn't moth a word. So one day, when they were both out together I let it rip. I completely and totally went to town on her room (the one in my apartment that once upon a time use to be my studio) and I let it rip. Pulled everything apart.... Husband and stepdaughter came home at the tail end of it. Husband didn't know what to say. Stepdaughter was outraged. "How dare you?" etc... I remember turning around and saying, "Oh, but I thought you liked it like this....." She hasn't trashed my house again, infact she hasn't been that interested in living with us. I'm relieved. I couldn't take the abuse anymore.