As a follow-up, these are casement windows in the Ultra series.

You should be fine.

Your contractor is correct in that door are much more prone to fail and the fact that he/she is even using sill pans is already putting him ahead of the average by a mile.

Agree with WOW. Copper sill pans on the doors tells me your builder is way ahead of the game. He probably used what the industry calls a soft pan on the windows which is the same principle as the doors but is formed using the flashing material. Kudos to you as I think more homeowners should be aware of "correct" installation methods and question something that doesn't seem right. But remember, there is more than one correct way to install a window or door depending on the conditions.

No way should they remove the windows unless you are willing to pay them to do it. They did everything correctly and you do not ever need to use a copper sill pan on a window. Overkill would be an understatement.

Agree with WOW. Copper sill pans on the doors tells me your builder is way ahead of the game. He probably used what the industry calls a soft pan on the windows which is the same principle as the doors but is formed using the flashing material. Kudos to you as I think more homeowners should be aware of "correct" installation methods and question something that doesn't seem right. But remember, there is more than one correct way to install a window or door depending on the conditions.

Just another +1 on what the other pros stated. Sill pans are nice CYA, but not "standard procedure". You will be fine as long as the rest of the install was done up to par.

I don't know if any of you are still around to answer me on this. I too have windows that have gone in and the sill pans didn't get put in beforehand. I also live in low rain Los Angeles. The 40 Fleetwood windows installed even had a custom sill pan included but they didn't get installed. Fleetwood says the lack of sill pan voids the warranty.

On top of that my contractor DID NOT prep the sill at all. The bituthene does not wrap over the sill at all, it's just placed around the outside of the window openings. The windows are installed but look really sealed well now with a layers of bituthene over the window flange and he used lots of caulking. He stands by how they are installed and will put it in writing that they will not leak. He says he usually tosses out sill pans! He says his insurance will cover it for 10 years as well.

To just add context, I had a garage fire and the property is currently gutted because of smoke damage. 30% of the exterior stucco has been taken off and new waterproof paper will be installed and the browncoat will be replaced then the whole building will be wrapped with a stucco mesh covering to prevent cracking and disguised the stucco damage around the new windows. Apparently the wrap adds some water resistance as well. The roof is being replaced as well.

The new electrical is going in so I have time to correct the windows if you guys say I need to do it. It will cost me about $10,000 to reset these windows. Would you do it?

"It will cost me about $10,000 to reset these windows. Would you do it?"

Why will it cost you 10K when the windows were installed incorrectly, should be on the installer to correct the install now. What if the windows are leaking and the leak is not discovered until year 11? Whose to say the builder will even be around on 10 years? I would very concerned that Fleetwood will not warranty their products due to not following installation instructions? Caulk is not waterproofing, it is essentially cosmetic as a last line of defense and is in no way shape or form permanent. Bituthene over the flanges but not wrapping the opening is not going to keep water out for long. Sill pans ae required for a reason. What did your contract state for the installation procedures?

You can see the details of installation in the pics below. Windows are the one thing that I arranged myself with the help of the architect. The contractor on the whole project did not get his 20% but agreed to install. On the first day his worker came to me to ask what the metal sill pan strapped to the window was. We both looked it over and it saw that it clipped on the top like it was a drip cap, we went with that and used them that way.

Keep in mind the contractor said he was going throw out the sill pans as they were unnecessary. He said that he was going to install the windows correctly and now that I'm researching windows installation I can't see any instance of the inside of a window frame not being wrapped. If fact, before they were installed I questioned the lack of a full wrap on the sills and I was told they were not necessary. He's been a contractor for 30 years. Is he sabotaging me or is he just old school? Am I overreacting like the OP was?

I've found on the Fleetwood website that if the contractor decides not to use the factory sill pan then a reasonable attempt to deflect the water off the sill to outside will not void the lifetime warranty. Sounds like at least wrapping the sill to me!

"We both looked it over and it saw that it clipped on the top like it was a drip cap, we went with that and used them that way."

"Keep in mind the contractor said he was going throw out the sill pans as they were unnecessary."

You kind of took ownership of the window install then (with the architect), but there should have been some sort of detail on the signed off order or shop drawings showing the sill pan. Not saying the GC wasn't an a** for his thoughts and lack of understanding an know how, but I guess that now is why the 10K is on you. I would 100% pull every window and fix the install now before it got any further.

Forget the question is about the sill pan and the warranty for a moment. If the question were about the lack of sill wrap AND no sill pan used. Would you still push me to reset them with one or the other sill protection techniques?

BTW, I'm not even sure the city building inspector will pass it without a wrap of some sort. I'm checking now. If you look close you can see the sill pan on top.

"Would you still push me to reset them with one or the other sill protection techniques?"

One or the other, with the balance of the window flashed properly as well.

I was going say the same thing as Todd's first impression! This seems to have more issues than just questioning a sill pan.

- why is there caulk slopped all over? The nail fin can be back caulked to the sheathing, it shouldn't look like a 4 year frosted a cake.

- why does it appear as though the windows are being set on the exterior face of the framing as opposed to sheathing/substrate?

- The bottom nail fin should not be sealed as Todd alluded to, although as he also alluded to, that may be the least of your concerns here.

- If you are referring to that little 1-2" piece on top of the window as a sill pan, that doesn't look like any sill pan that I've ever seen.

As mentioned in the original post, a sill pan/bitumen wrap into the rough sill is best pratice, and if required by the manufacturer then yes, it should be used. Are there many leakproof windows still installed without it via the "old school" way, sure. Again though, these pictures are concerning IMO in regard to the overall installation.

Where did you find this installer? If I understand you correctly you are essentially acting as the GC here, in which case this is a bit of a mess. Stucco walls can give window installers nightmares, its particulalry important that things are on point given that material.

I have a GC that agreed to install and warranty the install. He built the million dollar ADU across the street from me and he came highly recommended. As I said he's got 30 years of experience. I was overly confident of his skills apparently.

Based on that Marvin install video. I see he has caulked over instead of using another piece of sheath over the side and top nail fins. He has no plans to cover the fins except with the final layer of waterproof stucco paper. I can have him cover the fins with more sheathing before that happens. He did not wrap the window frames at all, although I asked him about that and he assured me he knew what he was doing. In addition he sealed the bottom fin instead of leaving it for water to drain. I can reopen the bottom fin seal although water will not be redirected there because the lack of sill sheathing/pan.

The window is shimmed out a bit further than existing stucco surface to allow for the stucco wrap (a little less than 1/4") material and that happens after the windows are finished. The GC coordinated on the install with the stucco company on this.

Here's the fleetwood sill pan for the corner glass window. This is how I discovered my mistake. The angles on the cuts make it impossible to be used as a drip cap.