I would recommend that you get one of these non-contact probes. They are great for testing if a circuit is live or not. You just touch it to the outside of the hot wire and it will show a red light and beep if it is live. Non-Contact Voltage Tester RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: gpraceman (My Page) on Thu, May 9, 13 at 12:25 Not sure what happened with my last post. It won't even let me edit it. Here is what I mentioned. Here is a link that might be useful: Non-Contact Voltage Tester RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: Angie_DIY (My Page) on Thu, May 9, 13 at 14:25 I poked a hole in the drywall and found the metal box connected to a 2" x 4" with wires capped with nuts, a properly tied off circuit. Let me take the opportunity to make a PSA: if this is indeed still powered, it is NOT a properly tied off circuit. You are not allowed to cover a junction box that has live wiring in it. (Not that it hasn't been known to happen!) So, it is possible that these wires are live, or it is possible that they were disconnected somewhere "upstream" from this box. You said "x-post," but I don't see a message from you on the wiring forum. I would definitely consult the wiser folks there! (EDIT: I found your question on the bottom of another thread. I would start a new thread on that forum, including the picture you showed us.) Roger what gpraceman said. Let me expound a little. I cannot quite tell what is going on in that box, either. To me, it looks like only 2 wires. I see one white one and one that was formerly red or formerly black. It is conceivable that there is a third one, but am not sure with the shadows, etc. My understanding is that the metal jacket was used, in the bad, old days, as the ground wire. I would hazard a guess (as I think gpraceman implies) that you probably have found the 120 V circuit. The safest thing to do would be to use the non-contact probe that gpraceman references. If it is live, you could determine the circuit breaker that turns it off. Then you could turn it off while setting up the next test, and turn it back on after getting set up. Or just be very careful =8^) If you had a voltmeter, you should (carefully) test the AC voltage: A-between the white wire and the box B-between the black wire and the box, and C-between the white wire and the black wire. If it is a 120V circuit, you should get A=0V, B=120V, C=120V. If it is a 240V circuit, you should get A=120V, B=120V, C=240V. If it is an old 240V circuit without a neutral conductor, don't use it. Call an electrician. This post was edited by Angie_DIY on Thu, May 9, 13 at 14:37 RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: EAM44 (My Page) on Fri, May 10, 13 at 0:45 Thanks so much both of you for your input. It is indeed a 120V with white=neutral, purple=live, and as they are so fond of doing in the midwest, box=metal, as is conduit all the way back to the panel that is grounded = ground, so no ground wire. That non-contact probe looks so cool. Alas, Lowes did not have it. I bought a really cute little multimeter, tested the wires, and attached a 15A outlet today. The readings are as they should be, no reversed polarity, ground is grounded. All looks good. Tomorrow I skimcoat the drywall, then sand and paint. Alarm guy comes Saturday. One more question - there has to be a 240V (not A, forgive me) in that wall somewhere. I really thought that this outlet was capped off properly. The wires were capped, they were in a box, and there was 1" plywood over the box opening to keep someone from nailing into it. I would guess the 240 was handled the same way - is that a problem? The X post was on the wiring forum where the op was instructed to cap off an unused outlet in exactly this way. If I do have to dig and deal with this, I will call a pro. This is out of my league as I have no idea how to kill a live wire. Thanks again. RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: gpraceman (My Page) on Fri, May 10, 13 at 0:56 If they dead ended the wiring in the old gang box for the dryer, I would think that they also dead ended the breaker panel end as well. You should definitely verify that. Does the house still have an electric dryer? RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: Angie_DIY (My Page) on Fri, May 10, 13 at 8:53 The problem wasn't the way the wires were capped; that was proper. The problem was covering up the junction box and drywalling over it. You need to retain access to j-boxes that have live wiring over it. I think it should be clear to you right now (!) why it is a problem to cover it up! The post on the wiring forum was implicitly saying this (in addition to the instructions about capping the wires inside the box). gpraceman: it sounds like they did not disconnect the 120V circuit before covering it up. I see no reason to believe they disconnected the 240V circuit! If you need to find the circuit, I think an electrician will have a tool that allows him or her to trace the wires. I have never used one, but have seen it used once. They attach a device to the wire to be traced, say at the circuit box end. I presume it puts a high-frequency signal on the wire. They can then follow the wire with a receiver device. (Hmm, If that is how it works, I wonder if it works with armored (metal-jacketed) cable....?) RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: EAM44 (My Page) on Fri, May 10, 13 at 9:28 So this box with capped wires should have been covered with a metal plate that sits proud of the drywall, not filled with wood and drywalled over. Got it. What a drag if they did that with the 240 as well. Yes we still have an electric dryer that is now in the basement. Maybe they re-routed the wiring for that? I could just pop the drywall off the entire wall and look. If there is more wiring, I could get the cool non-contact probe and a proper box cover that I drywall around. Would that be correct? I don't mind patching and skimcoating, but hate drywalling, and it sounds like I've got more of it in my future (grumble, expletive deleted). Thanks again so much. RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: gpraceman (My Page) on Fri, May 10, 13 at 12:27 They probably left that 120V circuit live since there were other outlets on that circuit. Still, they should not have buried the junction box behind the wall. If you still have an electric dryer, then they likely disconnected the end of the old line at the breaker to install the new line. I do think that you should try to find the old junction box and make sure it is done proper. Some rental places may have one of those snake cameras that you can use to explore inside your walls by just drilling a small hole in the drywall. That would save you some patching work. RE: Angie_DIY et al., wiring question X post Posted by: Angie_DIY (My Page) on Fri, May 10, 13 at 13:45 gpraceman: Ahh, I see -- you are probably correct that they are much more likely to have disconnected the 240V circuit. It is not like there are scads of 240V, high-current breakers sitting in your breaker box. EAM: Following that argument, I would look in the area of your breaker box (dist. panel) for remnants of the old 240V circuit. Usually, it is a PITA to reroute wiring, so you just disconnect it and leave it in place. You may find a loose or cut-off end near the breaker box, or you may find capped wires in the box itself. Post a Follow-Up Your Name: Your Email Address: Subject of Posting: Message: Optional Link URL: Name of the Link: A copy of your follow-up will automatically be emailed to the original poster. Return to the Kitchens Forum Here is a link that might be useful: Non-Contact Voltage Tester

Yes, it should be.. but it's not. Every relay also has a pilot light transformer, doubling the number of wires in the panel, and the wire color has no relation to what it is. Repairs over the years have used all sorts of colors, and half of the wire is that old cloth-covered rubber where after 50 years the formerly "white" and "black" wires look the same. Tracing out the low voltage side is no problem. It's getting back from the relay to which of the cables entering the box it goes to that's the problem. There are A LOT of splices in this box, and to make things worse 2/3 of them are CRIMPED so I can't take them apart nondestructively. I understand the principles of tracing wire. I've traced a lot of wire. The part that's giving me trouble is the sheer complexity of the tangled wiring IN THE BOX since it's not practical to rip the entire box out and start over. I need to know if the wiring from the relay box to the existing fixtures is in decent enough shape to be reusable, or if I'm going to have to completely re-run those lines anyway. And I need to know this BEFORE I order the retrofit relay enclosure (that the old lines will be moved over to) so I know how many lines will still be used in the old location and how many will be abandoned. (Any lines I have to abandon and re-run will be replaced with runs to a panel in a different location.)

"Is there a way for me to connect this to the computer in the study using the cat 5 wiring?" If I'm understanding what you meant, you want to connect the non working computer, directly to the working computer and share the internet connection? If so, then no you can not do that via the existing wiring. You would need what is called a cross over cable ran directly from computer to computer. You could possibly jerry rig something up, but I won't even go into that as it would be very confusing to try to explain. You already have a wireless router, go and buy a wireless NIC for your daughters computer (not a cheap USB adapter, get an actual wireless NIC). If you can't get it to work, call the tech support number. Going wireless is going to be your cheapest and easiest option.

The rules say that when the handles are oriented vertically, ON shall be up. As pointed out a panel with horizontal breakers can be put in either way. The instructions will generally also tell you the allowable installation orientations. Every house in the development I grew up in (as well as everyone else built by the same builder) had the old PUSHMATIC panels installed upside down ... the supposition as it saved a lot of money even back then on the service conductors being three feet shorter. Of course the breakers read "NO" when on.