Point taken, wrychoice, this one does hit home and I'm having a bad day. I think what gets my dander up about hopper2008's posts is what other people have cited (the apparent arrogance and the striking need to prove herself superior, esp. to the former wife & kids), but perhaps I'm taking it more personally because of my situation. The only other thing I really reacted to that other people hadn't already mentioned as irritating is the projection factor. That is, hopper2008 making it out like SD is the one being childish, unreasonable, immature, insecure and manipulative about this situation. Which may very well be the case, but if hopper2008 isn't in some way, at some level, tugging the other end of the rope, then it's a non-issue. If it's a non-issue, then Hopper2008 would simply make sure her husband knows it's okay for him to go to his daughter's wedding without her (and doesn't stand on any principle or misplaced idealism about unity, loyalty or whatever and create a very difficult situation for DH and SD on her wedding day b/c she can't face the reality that she and SD simply don't get along and pushes it at the wrong time & circumstance.) I guess I reacted especially much to the projection aspect because my Dad's wife plays that game of telling herself & other people similar things (i.e. "whatever HE wants to do"; "HE's choosing to do such-and-such"). It's crap, don't buy it if you ever hear this sort of thing. No parent except the lowest form would EVER so quickly and unequivocably "choose", "freely", to leave their kid in the lurch, even if said kid was being a brat. These husband/fathers DO NOT WANT TO TURN THEIR BACKS ON THEIR CHILDREN and they DO NOT do so easily. I mean, unless they are scum, in which case I'd have to ask why anyone would want to be with scum like that. These men (or women, when it's women in these situations) may seem like they are "choosing", but they are BACKED AGAINST THE FRIGGIN' WALL and make these apparent "free choices" under tremendous duress of one sort or the other. For example, I know this because my Dad got me a plane ticket to visit him behind my SM's back (via money order) and always calls me when she isn't around; he called NINE TIMES on and around X-mas ---when she was out--- because he felt so guilty about telling me I couldn't come. Because it wasn't what HE wanted. I know for a fact that SM was telling people "he decided" to not have me there, b/c he was so "disappointed" in me, or whatever the H3LL.... Meanwhile, these "independent decisions" of his always seem to benefit SM, for example HER sister and brother-in-law were there at Christmas in my place, and she got some home improvements done (FOR her not BY her, to be sure). My SM isn't fooling anybody! (Well, I can't say that.... she's not fooling ME and several others ---including my Dad--- but maybe she's fooling somebody somewhere.) In this kind of scenario, if a parent seems to be making a choice to turn their back on their child ---especially on a really important or significant occasion like a wedding that they would otherwise never want to miss--- and their spouse is acting all "my dog ain't in that fight", or more obviously, even GLOATING about the parent's "choice": look closer, ask some more questions. Barring possible reasons such as the most scummy good-for-nothing parent or child on the planet, in most average situations with average people with average issues and flaws, there is more going on than meets the eye. It's more than one person tugging the rope. One way or another, the spouse is also manipulating the situation, or at the very least, is getting a big payoff (emotional, financial, circumstantial, etc.) from just "sitting back" and 'watching" the fight. Saying things in plain English (i.e. "don't go to your daughter's wedding without me or I will be very upset and might divorce you") is only one possible method of getting one's point across. Other methods include: -The Silent Treatment -Sexual Freeze-Out -Generally Being a Stone-Cold B***h Until He Changes the Situation to Your Way -Acting all Hurt and Crying ("Why Doesn't SD Love Me?!?!") to Play the Victim -"Forgetting" to Do Something You Promised (such as get groceries to have food in the house) So He Gets the Hint You're Not Pleased About X situation -"Forgetting" to Give Him His Prescription Medications That You've Made him Dependent On You For So He Gets the Hint... (a favorite tactic of my SM's; actually all of these are) ...and there's probably myriad other sick, twisted ways of controlling a situation that aren't even occuring to me because I'm just not that perverse. (Would have to get in that Stephen King "Misery" headspace to comprehend it more thoroughly.) Admittedly I have some bitterness about my personal stepfamily dynamics (on one side of the family anyways), but apart from any offense it gives anyone, I hope that at least hopper2008 and perhaps anyone else who feels they relate to her will perceive in my words the effect that her apparent attitude may inspire in an SD in that kind of situation. And to just be careful, as kkny said, about the hubris factor. It's humbling to hear it, but hopefully it puts things in perspective b/c it's never a good idea to go around thinking of oneself as being perpetually in a catbird seat. Not with the way our society and relations between men and women tend to go. Plus I think it's good 'tactical' advice, to be kind of Sun Tzu about it: a strategic choice to 'lose the battle' (over being at the wedding) in order to 'win the war', or at least *appear* the bigger person and pre-empt any feeling DH might develop about being on a leash and starting to resent it. (Men tend to wriggle out of a leash millimeter by millimeter... you don't see it coming, and then poof! They're gone! Or even worse, they stay...) This particular advice isn't meant to be about pleasing the man, or the SD, but covering your own behind and not thinking you're invincible or always going to win.... or even always going to be around! So picture the points I made in my last post but with a bit less 'edge'... and hopefully it's illuminating.

Wow, what a diversion from the original post! However, between all the venom and legal mumbo jumbo, I was reminded of my dear neighbor, "Betty", who recently died. DH and I had yet to move back into our house as it was under construction when Betty passed away. She had been living w/ her "third", "Al", and they weren't married. I found this a little odd for an elderly couple, lol, but never dreamed to question it. Anyway, shortly after Betty died, Al was told "by the kids" (they had no children together) to leave the house for the day. While gone, moving trucks came by and moved out a bunch of stuff. We were horrified, thinking it was Betty's adult children. But, it was Betty's deceased second husband's kids. In his will, the house was left to Betty for as long as she lived. Upon her death, it went to her stepkids who wasted no time giving Al the boot. Al and Betty lived there in harmony for YEARS and we were all very sad to see Al be forced to move across the state to his daughter's place. But, I guess Betty's skids had no real obligation to Al and legally, Betty's hands were tied. Not sure if that's the reason they never married (like the house would have gone to her skids in that event) or not, but it was an odd arrangement. Dana

--"gardenandcats....I think that's awful advice"-- I seriously doubt Gcats meant for it to come out as 'sneak your SK off to counseling while he's at Dad's house under your care and to heck with what Dad/BM say/think'. --" My fianc� and she share joint custody, an he has suggested to get him into counseling many times, she refuses to get him help"-- Even with a 50/50 there is often times a set 'medical decision' maker. If it is truly a she can/he can (meaning either parent can make medical decisions) than there is little BM can do to stop Dad on Dad's 50. Of course for a smoother , perhaps more beneficial, counseling session it would be best for best parents to agree and at some point for both parents to also attend. The idea behind the sessions I will assume is to bring the sides together to agree on ways to cope with child and for child to cope with his new sitatuion. Denying the child ways to cope with life and feelings blah blah blah is hardly in the best interest of the child. The biological parents must work as a team to bring together the help and assistance the child may need. I'm still waiting for answers to above questions. Depending on the answers could be the core of what the child is actually having troubles with. If this child is having dealing and interacting with all children I would assume his teacher and school professionals would have been in contact with BM/Dad and discussed the options in helping the child. If the 'trouble' with the child is only present at home/s and has more to do with divorce, resentment blah blah blah...it's a different ballgame entirely. Being sheffled between to homes in it self can be a major stress factor for some kids. Being compared to two stepsiblings at live 24/7 together from birth on while the 'new child' in does not or perhaps does not even have other siblings is an unfair measure of 'judgement' as to what may or may not be 'wrong' with this child.

Wow, that is so sad about their home situation. I know it's generally hard to take kids from their biomoms, but in this case, w/ all the documentation I imagine you have (start now if you don't) and the inexplicable tardies and absentees at school, I'd certainly check w/ an atty to see if something could change. This home environment description made me dizzy just reading about it - I cannot fathom any child having to endure such conditions. My Dnephews lived similarly, except that BM did not drink. But, she isn't clean w/ herself or the kids and I basically raised them when they were small. She grew resentful of our closeness, my involvement, etc. She complained to the principal that my oldest DN's teacher (he is autistic) was dealing w/ me and that I was not the parent. The teacher tried to deal w/ her - to no avail, so she recruited me at my DN's insistence. Anyway, for a few years, the boys thrived when I was involved, but then I was shut out. It broke my heart - happened when my first born was six mos. old and I always wanted the boys to know it wasn't because I had a child, then two, now three little boys of my own. Anyway fast forward to last night. Youngest DN came over, needing help w/ algebra. I was a math minor, so I was always volunteering to help each of the boys (three, also) but wasn't allowed. Turns out DN doesn't know his multiplication tables - TENTH grade. How can you be pushed through school beyond third grade and not know them? I didn't judge, criticize, or anything - we did his assignments, reviewed multiplication, and I made him promise to come over several times/week. My point is that I have felt lousy ever since. Might these boys have stood more of a chance had I fought more to keep myself in the loop? My hands were legally tied - she and my brother divorced - he never wanted to 'rock the boat' and now I have a DN who's a So. struggling terribly, one who's a Sr. that should be an A student, but barely gets by, and my oldest DN who isn't doing anything since graduation a few mos. ago (the autistic one.) Hang in there and try to make a difference. I can't tell you how badly I feel about my DNs. To me, they are my "big" boys and my sons are my "little" boys, but I do view them all as MINE. This breaks my heart. Good luck w/ the new baby and this situation. I pray you can somehow get custody of them. You are providing a nurturing environment that every child needs. Dana