Ashley, I disagree that she doesn't choose to behave that way. It may be that she lacks self control or the maturity to see how her actions are harming her child, but unless she suffers from a legitimate mental problem that prevents her from controlling herself, she chooses to ignore what's in her child's best interest. We all, from time to time, let our feelings get the better of us. We're human. But, if for an extended period of time, a parent has time to think and reflect on how things are impacting their child but they continue with the harming behavior, it's a choice they make.

Your FSD's mom sounds selfish and from what you have said, she has deprived her child of not only a relationship with a FSP that could love her, but she's deprived her child of her relationship with her father. I don't care what anyone says, moving a child 600 miles away makes it that much harder to maintain the same relationship. Sometimes it's necessary to move, but if it's not, then it's done in a way that harms the children. Moving for a better job or environment might be putting your child first. Moving to be with a new boyfriend/husband (or just because you want) is not, especially when it moves the child away from an involved father.

My hope is that any kid in this situation will make their own judgements, when they get old enough to, based on what they've seen and know rather than what someone has told them.

Ashley, if it gives you any hope or consolation: when SP's are good to their SK's and genuinely love & care for them (even though both SP & SK may make a few mistakes), the SK's **DO** know it and recognize it when they reach a certain age. That's how it's been with my stepdad and I. No way did we have a perfect relationship when I lived at home, and to this day we disagree on some things, but he genuinely cares about me and loves me, and I am MOST grateful for that, always will be. It makes an enormous difference in your SK's lives when you can do that for them, and they know it.

Giggle

The STATE says she's crazy....not just me. It's no big secret in the town we live in. She has made a spectacle of herself on many occasions, whether it's the cops getting called to her apartment, dragging two two year olds to a bar at 12 o'clock or getting into publice fights. She knows she's crazy. She'll tell you herself. She doesn't like me becasue she still loves my husband. She'll also tell you THAT herslf and unfortunatly there's nothing I can do to help her there because obviously husband has moved on.

You don't have to dialogue with me....I'm sure I'll survive:)

P.S. She is in mental health classes and enrolled in rehab and is showing some improvement. Even though I don't care for her I'll give credit where it's due.

Giggle

The STATE says she's crazy....not just me. It's no big secret in the town we live in. She has made a spectacle of herself on many occasions, whether it's the cops getting called to her apartment, dragging two two year olds to a bar at 12 o'clock or getting into publice fights. She knows she's crazy. She'll tell you herself. She doesn't like me becasue she still loves my husband. She'll also tell you THAT herslf and unfortunatly there's nothing I can do to help her there because obviously husband has moved on.

You don't have to dialogue with me....I'm sure I'll survive:)

P.S. She is in mental health classes and enrolled in rehab and is showing some improvement. Even though I don't care for her I'll give credit where it's due.

We realize mental illness is hereditary and we worry like hell for the girls. The last thing hubby wants is for them to turn out like their mother. She shot herself with a shotgun at 19 for christ's sake. Thanks for the concern and tact (or lack thereof)for bringing in up so coldly.

I don't think hahaha, it would serve you right attitudes are in good taste where kids are involved.

Thanks, Serenity, for the encouraging words! I come from a 2-parent household of a minister and his wife. All my friends had a 2-parent household. I knew nothing of divorce until I was in jr. high. Can you believe that? So I have had to ask for a lot of advice and read a lot of books. I have only ever wanted to show the kids real love and devotion and how our home can be filled with love. But the closer I get, the more BM sabotages me. I started FSD a charm bracelet a few years ago. I buy her a charm for every holiday including birthdays. BM got FSD to bring it to her house. Why would she need it? BF let her do it. One day I saw her sister wearing it at a ball game. I was so upset! Why did that happen? BM told FSD that anything that belonged to FSD belonged to her sister as well. If I wasn't paying attention, it would've been lost and gone forever; just the way BM wanted.

LMAO, if tact was what you were going for than you sorely missed the mark in calling their mother a crazy nut. And totally missed the mark in snark.

I sincerely the state says she is "crazy." That is not a clinical term.

There is a HUGE freaking difference between a grown woman and two innocent 4 year olds my dear and you are ig-no-rant if you don't see the difference.

The Department of Children and Families is STATE and THEY say due to her CLINICAL diagnosis by mental health professionals that she is mentally incapable of raising her children right now. So yes, state says she's crazy.

Don't bother "dialoguing" with me anymore because we have no views in common apparently and I don't consort with people who joke about the mental condition of babies.

No, there is not a difference because you deliberately misinterpreted what I wrote to play the victim card. Sorry, doesn't fly with me.

Again, the department of children and families did not state that the twins mother is "crazy" or a "crazy nut." You are truly delusional and dwelling in your view of the situation if you actually believe this.

If you post something I disagree with, I will say it. I don't give much credence to your opinions or views b/c you have stated that you cannot see any other issue any other way, but your own. So yes, it is useless to dialogue with you but it is entertaining to watch you spin it.

Glad this forum is entertainment to you giggle, but don't you have anything better to do? If it's so useless to dialogue with someone, why do you keep doing it?

Just because someone doesn't give the technical diagnosis of the mother's mental illness, she used a term you don't agree with. It's obvious the mother is incapable of caring for her children due to her mental state. What difference does it make to you if the term 'crazy' or 'nuts' is used instead of the actual diagnosis? If you think doodle is a fraud, then why not confront her like an adult with your suspicions instead of being antagonistic and immature in YOUR responses to her?

BTW, how many stepkids do you have? or do you have kids that go to a stepparent? and how do you get along with your kids' stepparent or your stepkids' other parent?

Ima, internet sooper dooper PI. You tell me. Look at my posts.

LMAO, I am not a member of the official SM bash the BM club no matter what a SM says. Have at it if you enjoy the group think.

In any case, being a stepparent is not the requirement to post here. Neither is being a member of the club.

Never said being a stepparent is a requirement to post here. I asked you that because this thread is about mom's and stepmoms and how they relate and why they do or don't get along with each other or why they might put the kids in the middle of conflict. It had nothing to do with anyone's mental illness. That may be one comment someone said about the BM in 'their' situation, but that isn't what the thread is about. I was just wondering if you had any input on the original post, not dragging someone else's comments off on a tangent. Who is asking you to bash anyone or join any club????

I guess then, since you won't share, that you get along great with your stepkids' mom. It must be great. Are you a mom too? or would you take me asking that as an invitation to bash SM's? You don't have to answer of course. or join any clubs.

I am officially (by marriage) a SM for oh, about a week and a half now. I am a BM. I am a stepchild to a SF and a SM. I have several bio siblings, half bio's and steps. Those are my credentials. Perhaps I'll start my own club.

I've already said my thoughts on this thread.

What I have objected to is Doodle's apparent disregard for women who do not think like her. She has stated that she cannot see any issue but from her own point of view and then has gone on to state numerous times in a couple threads that women that won't talk to or thank a SM are hung up on their ex.

Then, to back up her position she chooses to use BM's mental illness to try to prove that point.

I think it is crass and offensive to not only women, but people who are aflicted with mental illness.

You can disagree with my view or not, but that is why I responded the way I did.

I have invited my husbands ex out to dinner with us to my house for get togethers. The ex bio mom is a nurse and works most holidays, I made Thanksgiving dinner and my husband and their son took her a tray I made for her with a card so she could have dinner with her son. My ex and I get along better now than when we were married. My kids love my husband and my husband and my ex get along just fine. My ex comes to my house on christmas with his girlfriend so we can both spend the morning with our children. i was married for 20 years. Its whats good for my kids not me.

Oh, and I don't think Doodle is a fraud. Not in the least. I think she is a good example of why BM's would have an issue with a SM like her, even a SM like her who you can truly tell loves her stepchildren.

If it is acceptable to call BM a "crazy nut" (when she has a mental illness), then why isn't acceptable to speculate that the children of the crazy nut may have produced nuts?

The term can't be used at only one persons discretion. If it isn't obvious, Doodle's obvious reaction to it (although I didn't mean it that way) is what many people with a mental illness would have. It's like fat camp, only the campers can call it fat camp.

Maybe I am the only one who finds that ironic.

"What difference does it make to you if the term 'crazy' or 'nuts' is used instead of the actual diagnosis?"

It makes a huge difference. That is analogous to saying what difference does it make if "derogatory term" is used instead of "African-American?"

And no one has answered why BM would choose to have conflict with some one the child spends time with......Altho jealousy and insecurity have been mentioned here goes all the shallow reasons I can come up with.....She s younger, prettier, better body, richer, better fashion sense, class ,personality, family status,SK likes her,still loves her X,X is having time of his life with new SM,he looks happier and better than he ever did in his life(ditched the old comfortable clothes) travels, shes stuck,he s as free as the breeze, X bought her a Swiffer for holidays, buys SM jewelry,BM thought(cliche here) grass was greener, couldnt get any one better, stuck with a non earning loser, whom she thought would make the X green with envy and coming running back,thinks poisoning the kids will help win her case, opposite result,lies, revenge, last word, more money, X needs to be heard, it will all be fine then.......Sigh....I think all this will crumble at your feet at the end of the day...My opinion, dont want thanks, dont want communication...just go... away....

I don't think mothers in general are seeking conflict with their exH's current wives - I think often it is just that they want the SM's to stop interfering and let the parents make the parental decisions.

That is the problem though isn't it? Which decisions are parental? I disagree as well, I feel many, not all, BMs just want to exert power over both households.

IMO, if it isn't a decision you would feel comfortable making for your child's best friend who was staying overnight, then it is parental. Apple pie or chocolate cake for dessert? - household. What to do if child doesn't complete homework - parental.

so about the homework, how does that work? For example if BM doesn't think it is important to do homework, should the child not be guided by a caring individual to do homework because that individual is SM? It just isn't that clear cut.

TOS, I wish it were that simple. In some cases, your as an example, it likely is. I don't take you as the type to outwardly trash your kid's SM to them . . . but your children, for the main part, don't have a relationship with her, and she doesn't desire one with them. That makes your perception of the over all issue much more simplistic than some of us have it. You may not be able to grasp this because you personally aren't the type, and I think this applies to KK and Giggle as well. You are pretty secure women who don't use your children as a crutch to improve your self esteem. You don't need to tear down the relationship the step mom has with your child(ren)to make your relationship with your child(ren) 'better.' You don't need to tear down their opinion of her to make you feel more loved or the 'best mom.' BUT - you also don't have much competition. I do wonder how it would be if they were very close to this other woman and did look to her as a parent? Would you maintain your composure and keep your children's interests first, or would you resort to the tactics many of us deal with daily? That's the problem, ladies. Not all mother's have it as together as you, and they pull this - and much worse - on a daily basis. We aren't talking about who makes choices, we're talking about telling your child(ren) that their SM is a whore, that they hate them, etc. Would you tell your kids you felt that way about the neighbor? Then why would you tell them that about the step parent . . . especially if they care for this person? If you tell them SM is horrible and they love SM, isn't that telling them they have poor taste in people to love?

So, as this has become longer than I wanted I guess I just wanted to say that this may be one of those situations you will have to think outside your comfort level on - there are mothers out there that you can't comprehend.

JNM, My SD's BM absolutely would tell her child that she thought their neighbor was a whore and that she hated her if she felt that way. Some people have no sense.

Recently SD wanted to win "Best Christian" award at school, but another girl won it instead. BM told SD that the other girl was a "little demon" and she didn't know how she could have possibly won that award (as reiterated to me by SD), then SD got mad because I told her I didn't want to hear that, that I asked what awards she did receive. Real Chistian-like. Where is the guidance?

Colleen, the dad should deal with it. It is not just a choice of mom v. SM.

JNM, I don't think mine or TOSs situation is simple, or if simple, not easy (and hers is certainly tougher than mine). But we are like the majority of divorced moms who have child more than 50% of time (and even when custody agreement says joint, like mine, I have child 95-99% of time).

I think at one point my Xs SO had this vision that she would just replace me, and her life with X would be the same as mine with him. Which we all know, that's impossible -- it might be better, but different. In any event, as she has yet been accepted by his family or friends she has been verbally abusive to me and child. Child will rarely call Dad on house phone (only if emergency) and usually at work or cell. I wonder if asked, Dads SO would say this is all my fault.

Did your Xs SO tell you she had this vision of replacing you, or is that just what you think? How do you know she hasn't been accepted by his family and friends? Hopefully you aren't still conversing with them!

And what if Dad doesn't think homework is important either?

we did have a neighbour whom DD refered as whore. lol I had to agree.

We also used to have two sets of neigbours who caused us to move: they sold drugs in the building, ruined the building, stole from us, their daughter repeatdly assaulted DD and ruined DD's musical instrument (police was regularly involved as well as DD's school), then the other neighbour's daughter actually was a whore who brought men home and it created absolutelly unbearable living conditions for us and danger for DD. We of course moved.

Most certainly I hated those neighbours and most certainly DD was aware of my feelings, in fact she hated them even more. I am not sure if i used the word whore, probably not, but DD certainly did.
So if neighbours like this happen, what is the guarantee that SMs like this would not happen? Would i have to hide my feelings? Just wonder....I suspect DD would not even want to go to the house with such SM, and then it would of course be my fault...Hmmm i don't think so...

colleen, what is wrong conversing wiht friends and family. Some friends are mutual, both spouses', why should she stop talking to them? and as about family. My brother is still friends with my X, why not? And i still talk to XMIL and XFIL. Not only for the sake of our kid but just because of being friends. If my brother divorces my SIL, i would continue being in touch and being friends with her most certainly. i have no plans to stop talking to her and vice versa.

I dare to answer for kkny. she said SO called her drunk and said it is all KK's fault that his family and friends do not like her. there were other examples she quoted.

Of course I still talk to his family and some of OUR friends. His mother is still my DDs grandmother. Nothing will change that. She has said I am still family as far as she is concerned. One of his oldest friends stopped by yesterday.

As to knowign what she wanted, I can only guess, but she was screaming at him when he told DD he was taking her to a work dinner (most people bring spouses, SOs or no-one, child if spouse very ill). I told DD she should attend anything dad asks her to.

FD, if the divorce is amicable, an EX can and should continue a relationship with their EX's family especially when there are children involved as long as the EX accepts their new role as family friend and acts accordingly. If they are using the relationships as a venue to badmouth and bash the spouse, then that relationship needs to be redefined. kkny has a lot of anger toward SO and rightfully so, therefore I doubt this is a situation of opening arms and embracing one big family.

kkny is an adult and can answer for herself. Do you kkny speak disparagingly about SO to his family and friends?

I agree with Colleen that staying in contact with XILs is expected when there are children involved, but should not be a relationship where gossip and badmouthing occur. My XMIL and I were really cose before the divorce. If and when I have to talk to her it's always light-hearted and about me. I never talk about her son with her. Same with any other relatives.

Define disparaging. I have said she slept with him while we were married - in response to his mothers repeated questions as to why marriage broke up. Did not go into details as to how she pursued him for years. How she quit work (or lost her job and has not found another) since moving in with him.

" * Posted by kkny (My Page) on
Wed, Jun 4, 08 at 12:29

Colleen, the dad should deal with it. It is not just a choice of mom v. SM."

That's true. and when my hubby says "honey, can you help?" or even if he says "what should I do?", then he IS handling it. He's delegating to me... If BM doesn't like it, too bad. It's NOT her place to have ANY say in how we run OUR home. When SD is with her, it's her decision.

"JNM, I don't think mine or TOSs situation is simple, or if simple, not easy (and hers is certainly tougher than mine). But we are like the majority of divorced moms who have child more than 50% of time (and even when custody agreement says joint, like mine, I have child 95-99% of time)."

I had my kids 100% of the time without an au pair or the kind of money you claim to make. Sure, it's choices I made and I'm not complaining, but 'easy' is relative to each situation. I never b*tched or moaned about it but I don't think I ever thought it was easy.. it was what it was. I think JNM means you have it more simple because you don't really have to deal with your ex's GF/wife because the kids don't visit dad EOW. I agree with JNM, I had my kids 100% and it was so much more simple to raise my two younger ones without dealing with the dad or stepmom. It was a lot tougher with my older son because there was conflict, court, schedules to follow, differences of opinions, etc. I didn't have any of that with my younger kids. I made all decisions and my word was final.

Have you also told his mother that it now appears he is taking another woman on his business trips? Bet you haven't, and that must have been something you heard from his friends. Because when you reveal that bit of information the issue is no longer "that woman" it is in fact her son. Have you also mentioned the drunken phone calls, verbal abuse and throwing hissy fits when EX invited his daugther to attend company socials?

Look kkny, noone would support another person breaking up a marriage, if it is ever that simple. My point is that don't pretend you aren't encouraging his family and friends to dislike her when you most certainly are. So? She deserves some heat, but your EX does more than anyone else.

No, colleen, DD told me about latest trip. I told her she must be mistaken. His friends figured out about affiar on their own. He knows the drunken phone calls.

So what is your point, it is OK to have affair with married man, and then expect people to respect you. OK.

colleen, if divorce was ugly it still has nothing to do with family or friends. even if divorce is ugly there sometimes are symphatetic relatives who even take the side of the other spouse. and it really is up to the people to decide if they want to talk to x-family or friends. who are we to judge. and if people want to have private conversation with bashing or gossiping, oh well, why not if they leave kids out of it.

Well I guess the children weren't left out it were they? DD told kkny about the last business trip. And who honestly believes that you can leave the children out of it?

Colleen, so what is your point -- that Dad shouldnt have told his daughter who he took on trip?

So now you are trying to pretend it was just the innocent sharing of information between father and daughter? If that is true, why in the world did you say to her she must be mistaken? And, then proceeded to find out his friends figured out the affair on their own.

how could it possibly be easier to raise children with no father in the picture than when kids do visit their father? the most difficult part would be to answers kids' question: where is their father? I think it still is easier if there is the father that they visit (at least kids don't ask where is their father) even if there are schedules and SMs to deal with. I think it is still easier for me that DD sees her father than if she wouldn't. I do not want to be the only descision maker even if it might be easier.

I didn't pretend it was innocent sharing of info between Dad and DD, I was making the point I wasnt prying with his friends. I told her she must have been mistaken becuase I was shocked. The conversation had started with Dads is out of town on business, DD wanted to go swimming in his pool, I diddnt want her there alone, she said Dads SO was there and the conversation went downhill from there.

What I was saying is that his friends knew he was having an affair when he was married to me. I have no idea of the latest.

sorry: quick question b/c I'm just sitting out & observing this one but still want to make sure I have facts straight:

kkny, it was your ex's GF (the one he's had for a while) screaming at him when he said he was taking your daughter to a business event (presumably instead of GF)? Is there an *additional* woman in the picture now (meaning exH is possibly cheating on current GF)?

I was gathering that exH's GF was p.o.'ed that exH was brigning DD on trip instead of her. Then a few posts later both you & Colleen phrased some things like there was now some additional woman and now I'm confused....

????

why isn't it posible that people tell others about their affairs? My X did not make a secret out of why he left his 2nd wife. He even told me. ha. I certainly did not ask. Plus sometimes people just know from observations, it is hard not to know if affair is with a colleague or a family friend or if a spouse moves in with TOW/TOM the same day they move out of marital home, who would believe that they have met their new GF/BF on the same day they left their spouses?

Why is it always X-spouse's fault in what people know?

SO's X moved out of marital home into the place she rented with TOM. Neither he nor she directly told DDs, but they knew right away because she built up a nest with TOM right away. Who can be that naive?

colleen, of course, you can leave children out of it. DD does not know what I talk to XMIL about.

Serenity, apparently there is another woman in the picture. I don't think DD (or I) knew or suspected when there was the fight over the business dinner.

No X didnt take DD on trip. Sorry if I wasnt clear. All I know for certain is he went on trip. DD told me he said he took another "friend" and DD asked what type of friend. And he explained.

okay, got it, thanks!

I don't see anything wrong in telling parents-in-law why marriage failed even it is because one spouse left the other for TOW or TOM. what is wrong wiht that? The only reason i would maybe not tell is being embarassed being cheated on. do people have to make up fake reasons or lie? I understand not telling young children, but adults? why not?

FD, I suspect X lied to people about how long he had been with current SO ( or soon to be X, depending on ??). HIs mother kept asking if we would be getting back togethor and I said dont think so.

How about lets start another thread for this topic??? This one is getting way too big and it's off the original topic.

If I had neighbors like the ones finedreams was stuck with, I wouldn't hesitate to let my children know how I felt about them. Whether or not I used the word "whore" (assuming the neighbor actually was one) would depend on the age of my children.

In some ways I think it would be easier if my H and his current wife were completely out of the picture. Unfortunately, he (and she) are in the picture just enough to be annoying, but not enough for him to actually be much of a father.

I get to be the last post!

I agree that neighbors like FD's can be a 'teaching point,' but I don't think I approve of name calling. Discussing how these neighbors lower property values, encourage criminal activity in the neighborhood, etc. and stating that you don't agree with that lifestyle is educational to a child. Saying they are dumba$$ idiots is a different story. One is fact, one is opinion. I agree, if chatting with an adult child I wouldn't think too much about passing opinion on, but with a younger child it seems a better example to stick with fact.

The same could be applies to, let's say, TOS's ex. Telling the kids "dad is in love/infatuated with another woman and has chosen to live with her' is fact. Saying 'Dad is a no good, cheating, lying SOB who doesn't deserve you' is opinion. (in my mind it borderlines fact, but is still opinion!)

This rules applies back to the SM/mom battle of the OP. It's all about how you convey things to a child. Maturity vs. immaturity. Intent to educate vs, intent to disparage. We all know which is which.