You're doing the right thing. Let her call her mom whenever she wants. Never ever ever stand in the way of that. Let Mom be the one to tell her she can't mediate every dispute between you when she gets sick of it. Or not, let her talk to her forever. It doesn't involve you.

You do not have to love or like your stepdaughter or do anything for her that you don't want to do. You just have to be polite.

8 to 10.30PM makes no sense. there is nothing to talk about for 2 and a half hours. If mom does not like it why is she asking DH instead of telling her kid: honey, it is time to go to bed, I am tired and cannot talk anymore.

it sounds to me that SD i very attached to her mother, 3 times a day, for 2 and 1/2 hours etc. It seems that she needs to be with mom full time. I see no reason living wiht dad if she wants her mom non stop mornings and days and nights. I know DH has custody but if kid is that obssesed with momm why not change it? Or mom does not want SD wiht her?

I agree with FD on this one. It seems like mom needs full custody for a while.

She would still have to "visit" with dad .... correct?

Or should dad just give up and say when you are ready to come see me again I'll be here???

Two years ago for about a month or so ... SD didn't want to go with mom, Hubby "made" her go and when she would call from mom's house he would tell his D this is your time with mom I'll see you tomorrow.

Oh, yeah! He should at least have EOW. No.....you (collectively all in your home) should have regular contact with her and remind her how much you love her.

And I hope that BM would extend the same courtesy to DH as he did to her if she didn't want to visit. Do you think she would?

of course she has to visit with dad but visit is not the same as living together full time.

If she needs mom that much but lives with dad, then maybe living with mom but coming seeing dad on the weekends and middle of the week or even half a week etc might be a better solution.

DD loves her dad but she did not need to talk that much to dad, not like 2 hours a day or not even every day. If she would exhibit such attachement to dad that she needed him all the time, I don't know maybe I would start wondering if she needs to live with him.

i don't know, i just wonder why would not she live with mom if she is that attached? is mom objecting? maybe in the past she did not want to go to mom, but she is getting older and now wants to be with mom? why not try it?

If she goes to moms and then calls mornings days and nights to dad, then it is a different story.

She has been going to mom's 1 extra day per week for 4 weeks now ... so she technically is with mom more than dad... and still spends all her time here on the phone with mom.... so what would change ... she would come here EOW so she would never be here with the boys or her older sister or SB? would she be here on the phone all weekend long?

See I don't think the solution is going with mom but what do I know I am just the SM .... I am not allowed an opinion in matters of custody or visitation ... Just sharing my experience with each day of dealing with meltdowns .... and the aftermath.

Last night at bedtime I said to the kids we have to leave here at 7:30 SS has a field trip and I have to pick up your cousins and bring all of you to school ...7:00 am she wakes up gets dressed has breakfast does her hair at 7:20 she picks up the phone to call mom ... at 7:30 I say we have to go ... she says "I am on the phone with my mom you can wait" ... so SS and I walked out to the car and waited til 7:45am for her to finish her conversation. I went and picked up the cousins brought them all to school. 3 children say by thanks she gets out slams the door ... mom was in the parking lot at school. I wave and go on my merry way.

Pseudo - I may catch a bunch of crap for this, but I'm gonna say it anyway......it is your house, too, and it effects your children, too, so you DO have a say-so in what goes on and how this all goes down. I know you can't have any part in visitation, but you have to be a part of any and all talks on solutions. And it seems like, to me, that you bear the brunt because you are the morning caregiver for all the children. Please don't feel helpless. And you do have an opinion and it does matter. That child needs you to stay involved because it shows you care. It may not be apparant now, but it will be and that's when it will matter.

Question........if BM was at the school when you dropped SD off, then why didn't she just pick up SD from your place and take her to school?

It seems as though BM is placating this child. She's not allowing BD to handle the situation completely therefore undermining his authority.

Maybe I have it wrong. I'm just going by this post and the recent similar ones.

I agree with Ashley. BM is enabling this behavior and do all of the kids have free use of the phone? It sounds like SD is the only one constantly using the phone. Or should I say "abusing" the phone.

Can you set a time for her to have use of the phone? Not just whenever she wants. It sounds like BM complains when she is annoyed by it but when she isn't annoyed, she does what SD wants. That's being inconsistent. What does DH say about this? I'd drop it back in his lap. If he has to be at work and you have to get the kids up, then you do have final say in what goes on in your house.

Call me controlling all you want, but the land line phone in our house is attached to a fax machine. I keep the actual phones in my room, which nobody is allowed to come in my room without my permission and only if I'm in there. My cell phone is off limits. If SD wants to call her mom, she has to ask. She is allowed to call her mom everyday if she wants, but she is not allowed to call anytime she wants or all day long. In fact, I heard a judge a couple of weeks ago tell a mom that it wasn't good for the kids to be on the phone with her for a long time or too frequently when they are with dad. He said that they should have contact to make sure they are doing okay, but not talk for hours. If BM is 'rewarding' SD's behavior, there's no reason for her to stop. She's getting mommy to do what she wants and mommy is telling her 'call me anytime you want'. Nobody is helping this child... not the mom for telling her that. Not dad or you for allowing her to call mom constantly.

What did the evaluation show?

if mom can be on the phone at 7AM, then she should be able to pick up SD and drive her, get her ready for school etc. I see no point of SD being constantly on the phone wiht mom instead of mom actually taking care of SD.

I agree with ashley, if child needs mom in the morning let mom pick her up and drive her to school. mom seems to be hands off but then she has time to be on the phone with SD. I don't understand this arrangement.

It seems that all the kids live with dad and pseudo is taking care of them while mom is somewhere else. At the same time it seems that mom is involved becauase she spends awful amount of time on the phone wiht SD. i am just confused with this whole situation.

I don't understand what causes constant phone calls. what are they talking about? does mom work? This is the strangest situation...

I think it is plain not normal wanting to talk to either parent for that much every day. there is something going on. i hope eval would show something.

Sounds to me like SD is 'playing' BioMom (and by extension, the rest of the family) in addition to her psych./anxiety issues.

If I were BioMom, I'd set and enforce limits. But since she doesn't, as the primary caregiver in your home, you have the right to set reasonable limits. Things such as bedtime. A rule such as "Kids are in bed with all electronic devices (including phones, TVs, computers, etc.) turned OFF by 9:00 p.m." is reasonable and enforceable. You're not arbitrarily limiting SD's contact with Mom, you're simply enforcing bedtime. Which BioMom should be doing anyway...

I love all of your suggestions ... but mom has told her children that we cannot stop them from calling her ever .... and SD knows this so as she is on the phone with mom telling mom we won't let her call her this goes on for an hour ... Its a major blowout if they cannot call her the second they want to .... not worth the fight one of those pick your battles episodes.

Ima we have tried that with the phone was better when we only had one phone line now we have 2 phone lines ... we got a separate line for phone ... we are in the boonies no highspeed internet ... dark ages dial -up.

Hubby at this point is putting it on mom to put a stop to it .... his reasoning a month ago when he tried to stop it Mom flipped out on him about not letting her children talk to her on the phone.

No FD she is not working .... hasn't worked in over a year.

Evaluation was an intake ... guess there is another appt. next week ... hubby got called into work the boys are at the beach and SD is with mom :) So I won't find out until later on whats going on.

Dad leaves for work very early so he can be here when the kids are home from school the morning routine is usually uneventful .... this is a new thing with the meltdowns in the morning. Last day of school is thursday.

Whispering to Ashley:..(shhhh) All visitation is worked around my schedule not mom or dads... pickups are before I go to work and drops off are after I get home from work... :) shhh don't tell anyone wouldn't want to get blasted for something so trivial

Wispers to Pseudo - Oh, gosh no. I would never tell anyone that you have control over your own home. I mean, shouldn't BM have control over your home? Especially when her child is there....she should most definitely be in control. I know FSD's BM lives far away and still controls our home and, according to BF and a few posters on here, BM's control everything. (Even though I have no control at DS's BD's house, but, whatever. I guess I'm a defective BM).

This was just an appt with another new counselor ... the place does not have a child psychiatrist in the building available for evaluations...

But they did tell mom in front of daughter ... because mom was asking what it takes to get an evaluation ... Intake worker said ... she would have to do something drastic to get an evaluation this quickly and at that point it would an inpatient evaluation they do not do outpatient evaluations at that program. SD what does drastic mean???

So back to her regular counselor next week :) OH joy!!!

I would think threatening suicide would be drastic enough..

This state probably has more doctors per capita than almost anywhere else, as well as one of the most renowned psychiatric hospitals in the country (in a town that begins with "B" as you probably know) - couldn't her parents take her to a psychiatrist somewhere else?

Could the heat be contributing to this? I'm feeling pretty ornery - though I've heard it's twenty degrees cooler near the ocean..

Its not the heat only been hot here for 2 days and we are 20 degrees cooler only 85 here today in town was 102... and yes I suggested b or prov which is actually closer ... but again TOS just a SM ... can only suggest what do I know ...

They asked her how she wanted to die and she didn't give them an answer ... as in the how to commit it ... so they didn't think it was drastic enough ...

Had she said cut myself or take pills ...

her mind telling her to go near the poison wasn't good enough

Or mommy lock the door so I don't jump were not good enough.

I think it is time to find a new psychiatrist.

In the last dozen years or so, two of my kids' classmates and the brother of one of my kids' friends commited suicide - and none of them were older than 14.

I have to whole heartedly agree with TOS - time to move on. Exactly what kind of death threat IS drastic when uttered by a 9 year old?!?

Do any of you watch Desperate Housewives? Recently one family had to have Hub's daughter removed from the home because she was executing a plan to force her SM out of the house and was caught. I know this is all TV, but the girl was shrewd enough to pick up on the clues from the doctors and such as to what she needed to say to get her desired outcome.
So when SD's Dr. says she needs to kick it up a notch to be taken seriously, what do you think she will do? If this is truly about getting mom's attention and being 'noticed', how far will SD take it to achieve her goal?

I do agree that mom is not helping my allowing her daughter to carry on with the calls and such. It's very wrong that she complains to dad about it and wants him to be the bad guy and get SD to stop calling. She needs to be the one to put an end to it is she wants an end, but she wants to appear the savior to SD and therefore can't. I say as long as it isn't interrupting your schedule, let her sit on the phone all stinkin' day. At some point mom will have to call foul.

I'm scared for you guys. I certainly hope there is resolution soon.

this girl is disturbed, even if her threats are not real she is emotionally disturbed. she needs to be seen by a child psychiatrist ASAP. not counselors.

She should get treatment for the suicide threat. Divorce and stepparents is simply devestating for most kids. It's not personal, it's just really bad news for the kid. They need help.

It is OK to have different rules for different kids -- just have different privileges, too. Give SD nothing and tell your kids it's because you are not responsible for her. Give your kids rewards for doing well at the things you have asked them to do. If she does it, she gets the reward, too. Don't take it personally either way.

Much past the age of five, you can't control a child that isn't yours and resents you. Let her talk to her mother until she's blue and stay out of it.

Martha's point is a good one --
And I suspect it applies in SD's case.

Many years ago, older DS was taking ADHD medication, and it was helping him stay focused in school so he could learn to read. (He was about 8 at the time) But BioDad was a classic D.I.D. (Dad in denial) who insisted that because "DS is just like he was!" that this meant DS didn't have ADHD. If this, then obviously that! So he began campaigning to get DS off ADHD meds. Told everyone (in front of DS) that the meds weren't necessary, weren't appropriate, weren't helping, were harmful, had side effects... Repeatedly asked DS if he had headaches, was sleeping all right, stomach aches? And DS, who is a bit of a drama queen by nature, suddenly began complaining to me of side effects. (Of course, I had asked him several times in the previous months how he was feeling and he never indicated any of these symptoms.) I knew where it was coming from... So I gave him a big hug, put on my "concerned Mom" face, pulled out the perscription information sheet, and pretended to read the possible side effects to him. Did he have headaches? Yes. Sleeplessness? Yes. Joint pain? (fake - I made it up) Yes, he had that too. Loss of appetite? Yes. Itchy skin? (another fake) Yes - that was awful!

Anyway... The point is that kids will very definitely manipulate their medical issues to further their own agendas, and SD's "Drama Queen" tactics have been very effective at getting her unlimited attention from BioMom, Dad, doctors, school counselors, at getting her out of class, missing schoolwork, tests, bedtimes -- all sorts of rewards for a little girl who may have been feeling some degree of insecurity, abandonment and de-thronement. Her suicide and self-injury dramatics have been the single most effective tactic she's ever employed at giving her what she wants! So why on earth would any 'therapy' in the world make her want to stop? This is NOT to say that there isn't some underlying psychiatric or psychological problem. Just that when her "problem behaviors" bring her so many desirable consequences, there's no way on earth they will go away. It just doesn't make sense. And when her problem behaviors bring her so many positive consequences, the consequences alone reinforce the behavior, completely obscuring how real the underlying psych problems are or aren't!

Look up 'Applied Behavior Analysis' -- It's a concept that has gotten a lot of attention over the past few years for it's success in treating patients with autism. But the concepts are sound and have much, much wider application. One of the core ideas is that there's a reason for every problem behavior, and that by analyzing the behavior systematically, we can often determine the underlying trigger (not so much the psychological reason, but rather the situational trigger), make some change (generally to our response, but sometimes to the situation), and thereby reduce the problem behavior. The behavior is being repeated because in the past, that behavior has resulted in some consequence, and that consequence is desired.

It's definitely worth a few hours of time researching this --

Sweeby...

Hubby and I had a conversation about this the other day ... the rewarding bad behavior part.... but we thought she was having a psych eval yesterday so we were letting it go ... until after that but we will be enforcing the rules of this house and if she doesn't like them and feels the need to call her mom over the "rules" he will be telling mom to come get her ... or to get off the phone but either way SD will not be on the phone all night.

Hubby and I also talked about giving her an "equal tablet" and telling her the drs.. gave us this to give her to help her deal and to see if it works ... a pseudo_pill :)

I have tried and tried to tell mom she is not doing her daughter any good with coddling this behavior but I have better luck with the dog.

So basically I complain about what is going on here talk with hubby about it but I ignore most of the behaviors ... tomorrow is the last day of school .... there won't be access to teachers or nurses daily...

Mom said when SD called from school the other day the 2nd phone call first line out of her was ... mommy its me SD please don't hang up the phone!!! I need you!!! I said she's playing you and letting you know the nurse knows you are ignoring her needs so you look like the bad guy ...

When mom does tell SD to knock it off ... you're fine, you're over thinking this... etc... SD tells her you're just like pseudo she doesn't listen to me either. Then mom listens again ...

She hasn't mentioned to me or dad since the drive-in incident 3 weeks ago about wanting to harm herself she has only said it to mom twice since then... I think because I told her if she says it again I would bring her to the hospital and they would keep her there until they could believe that she would not harm herself and it would be days, weeks or months before she saw her mom or dad again.... "so if you are telling the truth you want to hurt yourself and you say it again I will believe you and I will have no choice but to keep you from harming yourself by putting in a place where you can't hurt yourself and you will be gone for a very long time"

I am lucky over the years the children (mine included) have learned I say what I mean and mean what I say!! So I don't think she will "play that card" with us again.

Pseudo - The Equal tablet is the best idea I've heard yet! What she's doing is a mind game. So if she thinks she's getting meds, she'll start ACTING like the meds work. Could you get BM on board? It's kind of along the same lines as people that haven't been drinking alcohl act drunk around people who are drunk.

"I have tried and tried to tell mom she is not doing her daughter any good with coddling this behavior but I have better luck with the dog."

Why is this so easy to believe? LOL!
If only Mom could learn to give her kids some good, real attention when they are GOOD and behaving reasonably...

And on that note, I'll sign off and go spend some time with MY kids, since they're both being nice ;-)

Isn't it weird that we, as parents, tend to ride the good behavior and react to the bad? I find myself doing that all the time.

"I have tried and tried to tell mom she is not doing her daughter any good with coddling this behavior but I have better luck with the dog."

Why is this so easy to believe? LOL!
If only Mom could learn to give her kids some good, real attention when they are GOOD and behaving reasonably...

And on that note, I'll sign off and go spend some time with MY kids, since they're both being nice ;-)

Ashley said: "Isn't it weird that we, as parents, tend to ride the good behavior and react to the bad? I find myself doing that all the time.

I try to make an Event (capital E intentional) out of it when A__ has good comments in his homework book. I dance and party and high-five all over the house and A__ (9yo FSS) looks at me like I've got a screw loose, but I know he likes the attention. I offer rewards like extra computer time or later bedtime or going to DQ for a Blizzard. We call his Dad at work and tell him what a great day A__ had at school. A__ leaves a message on his mom's cell phone about his good comments.
I'd rather give him positive attention for being good that have to give him negative attention for being bad... For bad behavior, BM's preferred method of punishment is grounding, so we stick with that. When he does get grounded at our place, we do short but horrible groundings, which I think is more effective than BM's eternally long but mild groundings.

"She hasn't mentioned to me or dad since the drive-in incident 3 weeks ago about wanting to harm herself she has only said it to mom twice since then.."

I wouldn't find this at all comforting. People who are suicidal often think about it for years before actually attempting suicide. I think that your SD is seriously ill - punishment, or ABA, etc. may or may not improve the behavior, but it doesn't address the cause. I am really scared that the well meaning advice of some posters here is endangering this girl's life. Her problems are way, way beyond anything that can be dealt with by non-professional advice, and I think offering any advice other than having her evaluated SOON by a psychiatrist is very dangerous.

TOS - You stated very clearly what I meant by the following:

"And when her problem behaviors bring her so many positive consequences, the consequences alone reinforce the behavior, completely obscuring how real the underlying psych problems are or aren't! "

I think there are real problems -- but that they're being so distorted by the dramatic responses that it isn't even possible to get a real evaluation of them!

And Pseudo - Even though I fully concur with you that SD is being melodramatic and milking this thing for all it's worth, the fact that she refrains from voicing these thoughts at your home doesn't necessarily mean that it's gone away. If someone even hinted at sending me away to a mental hospital (never mind that it's appropriate) if I voiced suicidal thoughts, you can bet I'd shut up about them!

What a mess!

I think we all agree that this behavior is not normal and is alarming, i don't even mean suicide threats but overall the way SD behaves is not normal. how about pediatrician, not even psychiatrist, is there anyone who can do anything? why isn't mom doing anything about it?

Pseudo-- I've been not responding because I hesitate to offer advice given that we are talking about a child which i am admittedly unexperienced with plus I have an emotional response to this subject which could make my opinion pretty subjective. But the more you post, I would feel horrible if I said nothing and your SD tried to hurt herself. So take this as you will.

Years ago, (I was 21), my best friend at the time showed up while I was at work to let me know her funeral wishes. "Just want to tell you, don't let them put makeup on me, blah blah." "everyone will be better without me, my kids will be better off without me, blah blah." (she had two pre-school age daughters, divorced about a year before). I got a promise out of her that day that she wouldn't do anything until after the concert we had tickets to in a couple weeks. Called 911 and gave them her license plates just in case. Talked to her sister who talked to her mom. Talked to her boyfriend --we worked together, she was dating a guy from work, his opinion "she doesn't really want to kill herself, it's all for attention". Well, duh, if she really wanted to die, she'd just do it, not tell people about it, doesn't mean she's not going to do it. Over the next couple weeks, her sister, her mom, and I individually had multiple conversations with her about why don't we just drive her to the ER and she can check herself in.

No, she didn't kill herself. No, she didn't make a blatant suicide attempt. She did crash two cars in a week and half's time and got herself arrested and, as a result, admitted directly from jail to the hospital. To this day, I absolutely believe that blind luck (police happened to be in the area at the time of the second crash, and neither crash killed her) saved her life. I believe she didn't really want to die, no more than probably your SD does, but I also think if she hadn't been arrested, she would have managed to make it happen before anyone else figured out how to stop it. There was a, I guess you would say momentum about it that it was going to see itself out one way or the other. It's hard to describe, but none of us believed she really wanted to kill herself but we (well, her family and I) still saw the situation headed that way with no way to stop it.

Everything you've said about your SD just sounds too familiar... not exactly the same, but the same feelings, concepts, motivations, however you want to describe it... I don't doubt she's looking for attention, from her mom or from whomever, for whatever reason. I don't doubt that she doesn't ***really*** want to die. And, a child can't conveniently "accidentally" crash her car into a guard rail, but she can "accidentally" fall out of a window and the results may be the same. I know as SM you don't have much legal say here, but she is a child and your DH and his X have more options than my friend's mom had. If you can encourage them to get her help, and quickly, please do.

Well to ease your mind and I am sure everyone else's as to how she might ... I took no chances about a month ago after the beetles thing .... I locked up everything that could possibly be used in the wrong way ... all meds cleaners ropes extension cords were tied up .... all tools are locked in the shed right down to the last screw driver. I basically baby-proofed the house again .... not sure how far she would be willing to go or take it ... dumped all the mouthwash bought kiddie toothpaste put a lock on laundry cleaners ...

Its a looooooooong process we will get there eventually we thought we had an evaluation but it was just another counselor ... dad is taking her to regular counselor on monday ... he is asking her to find a child psychiatrist we live an hour from both boston and providence both have excellent childrens hospitals ... just have to get someone to take her .... :(

oh, and btw, I still to this day do not know what the right response was... from me, from her BF, sis, mom, etc. not a clue. "i love you, i don't want to lose you" " your daughters need a mom" -- me and the family tried that. was that right? "yeah, right, you don't mean it" her bf and other work friends did that. was that right? did we undermine each other? were we all wrong? Was there no such thing as a right response?

still don't know.

she's still alive, it's 20 years later, and i'm still... affected. did i do right, did i do wrong, if i were faced with a similar situation today older wiser would i have learned anything and know what to do? honestly i don't think so.

so i wish you the best for your sd but also don't expect of yourself that you can fix it.

"but also don't expect of yourself that you can fix it." ---

oh that sounded bad. I didn't mean it's unfixable. I meant the way to get there isn't necessarily obvious. like i said, my friend is still around...

can anyone just take her to the hospital, to make appointment wiht psychiatrist? Is there anyone? or take her to ER? It seems that it's been going on long enough.

I know a guy, a psychologist, whose client made such statements and he followed clinic's guidlines such as not sending no one to the hospital right away if there is no drastic threats but looking at XYZ first. well she killed herself that very day within two hours of visiting my friend's offcie. I still remember his hysterical phone call, he did not get in trouble because he followed clinic's guidelenines: if the the person makes general "I don't want to live anymore" statements and nothing specific about how they want to die, you just tell them to make another appointment and see if it is going to get better. well woman ended up dead.

I do not understand why if this child has both mom and dad, nothing gets done. Therapists follow guidelines of their clinic, keep taking her there is not fixing anything. Kid needs to be taken to a hospital ASAP. I don't understand this.

They took her to the hospital last monday they kept her there for 5 hours.... set up an appt for this tues with what we thought was a psych evaluation... it was just another counselor...

Mom said yesterday ... she will be calling the insurance company and ask them for a reference to a child psychiatrist not counselor.

There is only so much I can do ... I say dad will make appts mom says she will .... I say ok and we wait.