I'm not sure what to add, it seems you areall on the same page with expectations & discipline (except GM of course).

It's nice you have an open line of communication with all involved. I've always bee ok with grounding as long as it wasn't more of a punishment for me than the kids, lol..

Good luck!

The writing things down in a list or short essay has been very effective with my DD9...and I believe I remember A__ being close to her age.

Most recently we've had a little problem with lying. I have to admit that I tried the grounding first and that that was not effective!! However, I have noticed that different children respond to different disciplines in different manners, and now I know that grounding is not for her, but that doesn't mean it may not work for A__.

At the last lying incicent with DD, we had a long discussion about trust and how even though her "lies" weren't huge or awful, that they still cause a lack of trust, and then I explained how difficult trust is to repair once lost. I also told her that she is getting to an age where she will have to decide for herself what kind of person she wants to be and that although I would like her to be trustworthy, that's really ultimately her decision and that I will just have to "accept" her in whatever choices she makes. I told her I know she can choose the right path and that I know she's a good person, but I explained that when you continue with poor behaviors, they become a hard habit to break.

Also, I don't know if you're religious in any way, so as for my next tidbit about what's worked for me, take it or leave it as it applies to you. I also mentioned to DD that even if I never discover a lie she tells, that God sees that lie and that it leaves a stain on her heart for Jesus to wash away when she asks. I told her it's like if you color on the wall...the more you do it, the harder it is to wash off and the longer it takes to make it right.

I then had DD go to her room and write instances when she lied, what happened after the lie, how she felt, and what she would do next time she felt like lying, or what she would do next time she did lie and wanted to "fix" it. She came down a half hour later with a list that actually had some stuff on it I didn't even know about!! I hugged her and told her how much I loved her and that I knew she could make "good" choices in the future.

Since then she has "started" to lie to me several times, but then stopped herself and said..."Well, actually..." I've taken those opportunities to tell her how happy I am with the person she is "choosing" to be.

Since A__'s the same age roughly (from what I recall), maybe he would respond positively to being given a "choice" to do the right thing, and that could include making positive choices on his own while at GM's...because you really can't control GM. It sounds like you have a good relationship with BM, so I'm sure if you'd like, you could get her on board as well.

Good luck....and keep up the good work!!

Hahaha Catlettuce - this grounding is awful for us! We like doing all the things he's grounded from too, so we can't do them either!
(Well, we did fit in an episode of Carnivale after he went to bed... and when he was wrapped up in his book in the afternoon, we both got some computer time...)

I guess what I really need help on is:
Should we initiate a strategy meeting with BM? How do we do it if we do?
Can anyone think of other ways to get it into his head that he has to be good at school?

We've found the brainstorming scenarios and actions pretty effective: For example, Me or FDH: "So, what if one of the other kids in your group says 'Hey, the really cool stuff is in that room over there, let's sneak off'... What will you do?" A__: "Say that I want to stay with the group and tell the group leader if I see him go off on his own."

Yup Oh My, A__ is also 9.

It's good to hear that lists or short essays have worked well for other people... Maybe you have some insight on this part - BM had him list '100 reasons that you shouldn't fight' when he got in that scrap last month. He arrived at our place with his list in progress and had to list at least 10 more reasons before he could play. He said he was doing fine on his own, so we left him alone with his list. When I looked to see his progress, I noticed that the list looked like this:
It's bad
It's wrong
It's disgusting
People will hate you
It's wrong
It's disgusting
It's evil
You'll be grounded
You'll go to jail
You'll rot in hell
It's not good
It's bad
Everyone will hate you
And he was at like 50 reasons!

I was kind of alarmed at how absolute these were, and how negative. It's not that he should be writing positive things about fighting, but I don't want him to get into some sort of pit of self-loathing despair either. So I grabbed FDH and said "We need to help him with this list! Go look at what he's writing!!"
We began brainstorming with him about things like "How do you think The Other Boy feels about coming to school now?" and he wrote "Maybe TOB is scared to come to school"
We asked "What could have happened if TOB hit his head when he fell?" and he wrote "Other people could get very badly hurt"
We asked "How do you think your mom feels when you fight?" and he wrote "It makes my mom cry" - We were shooting for "My mom is disappointed in me" but he meant more or less the same thing.
He was even coming up with "good" reasons on his own once we got the ball rolling, but I'm still alarmed by the stuff he came up with first.

When we got him to write out 15 reasons to listen, he started out with that same sort of thing "I'm bad when I don't listen" and I stopped him right away to brainstorm deeper and less self-loathing reasons. FDH and I spent well over half an hour on this with him. We finally let him put the last two as "Being grounded is no fun" and "Mom, Dad, Ceph and the cat are mad at me" (the cat?? LOL)
We encouraged him when he came up with good ones on his own, and told him we were proud of his hard work on the list when he was finished.

Have you encountered this sort of extremely negative / self-loathing thing when the kids do something wrong, Oh My? How about anyone else?
We didn't use any of that sort of negative language about the grounding BM asked us to put in place. We explained it as "Your behavior at school has big consequences. You HAVE to be well-behaved on Tuesday's trip or you don't get to go on any trips in June, and that's a big deal. Being grounded this weekend is so you realize that bad behavior has bad consequences. We hope you'll be good on Tuesday's trip, so that you don't have bad consequences about the June trips"

Any guesses on where the creepy reasons come from and what we can do about them?

Ceph, I always try to stress that the child is not "bad", that the behaviors are. I really don't think his list is all that alarming though. I think it's really on a 9yo level. He doesn't want to be a person who is in jail, hated by everyone, and going to hell...and those can be real motivators to be a better person and make better choices. I know I don't want to do anything that would make me one of those things.

I think a key is that after the list he writes what his actions will be to avoid those negative consequences and what his actions will be should he slip up and engage in the negative behavior again. For the fighting, it could be, "If I want to fight, I will walk away and do jumping jacks to get my negative energy out. And if I make a mistake and get in a fight, I will write the child I was fighting an apology letter for my actions and accept his response...whether it's to forgive me or not."

Also, be sure to reassure him that you KNOW he is capable of making good choices because you KNOW that he is a good person...then lots of praise when you see him making change.

Also, just my opinion, but my DD would never be able to list 100 reasons for anything...especially not on her own. We have a discussion before and after she writes her paper, so she goes to it with guidance and not just a blank slate, and there's not set number of expamples she has to come up with, just whatever her brain can muster up. She needs the help on what to ponder as she writes.

Does A__'s self-loathing type comments carry over into everyday things, such as not being good enough at a sport or not being smart enough? I would worry more if that's the case, but if it's limited to feeling poor about himself when he's done wrong only, he probably just needs help using better language to describe the disappointment he feels in himself over what he's done wrong.

Ceph, my DS7 can get this defeatist type of attitude - when he does something we don't approve of (which is so rare, he is truly a well behaved child) he gets very down on himself. It can alarm me as well. He doesn't do well with failure, and he takes it very personally if he does something he shouldn't - knowing he has disappointed us really hurts him. It can get to the point where I'm almost telling him "It's okay you punched your brother, don't feel so bad" just so he'll perk back up. I've talked with SD's counselor about it before and he said to continue to show that love is not based on success or perfect behavior, that it is unconditional. We don't say things like "It really disappointed me that you hit your brother" but use "It's too back you made the choice to hit your brother. We know you understand hitting isn't good and that you can make better choices." This can still bring on tears because he gets upset that he made a bad choice, but it;s usually when he's tires, etc. For the main part, if we keep consequences non-personal they seem to work better!

Ceph, do you think it might help A____ for those times when he has to go to his GM's, to write out a sort of diary of "Things I Need to Do At Grandma's/Every Day" with reminders like, "I need to do my homework (break it down even further if you think it would be better) before dinner/after dinner/whenever and put it in my bag so I can hand it in at school the next day", "I need to have a shower and wash my hair/scrub behind my ears/brush my teeth and hair/whatever", "I need to eat healthy food and only have one treat", "I need to be polite and respectful" or whatever you think would be good things for A___ to rememember, and maybe have a place where he can check off each achievement as he goes (maybe even get a small reward for so many checks).
I think you are doing an awesome job with A___ and he is very lucky to have someone so caring in his life.

Answering three at once here...

We also thought that 100 reasons was too long, but we weren't about to go against BM's instructions for this. If she had made him come up with 100 reasons to finish his lunch, then we probably would have shortened it, but fighting is a big deal.

Since you all think that his negative/defeatist/self-loathing reasons are a part of being 9 and knowing he did something bad, I'll try to not be too concerned. And we'll just try to emphasize the individual behaviors as single incidents.
We often bring up a past good incident as an example of what he should be doing, and to remind him of that has made good decisions in the past, so we know he can do it in the future. Once in awhile we bring up a past bad incident as an example of what not to do, but that's rare.

He's generally pretty confident and proud of his academic and sports achievements. Once in awhile he'll say "I only got 24/25 my math facts because I'm pretty dumb." We reply something like "24/25 is not the grade of dumb person! You did great on it! Nobody knows everything all the time, and everyone is allowed to make mistakes. You're smart and don't you forget it!"

I don't know if keeping consequences non-personal would work... I've mentioned before that I suspect he has some ODD (Oppositional Defiance Disorder) on top of his ADHD. Well, he REALLY blames others for his own mistakes and problems. For example, there was a recent battle to get him to admit that HE left his bike on the driveway (he insisted that Papa moved it, the neighbour moved it, a thief came to steal it but then changed his mind halfway down the driveway, etc) even though Papa and FDH saw him leave it there. We're trying to get him to take responsibility for his own actions at this point.
My 4yo niece is that same as JNM's DS though. If she thinks that anyone is disappointed in her, the waterworks begin and she is apologizing left and right. She's also VERY well behaved, but she feels absolutely awful when she does something wrong.

I like the idea of writing some of the scenarios we talk about. I'll suggest it to FDH and maybe next time we have something we have to do hypothetical situations for, I will write them too and he can write down what he will do in each case. This idea just keeps getting better - it could be photocopied so BM knows EXACTLY what we've talked about at our house. I think this could work well.

I'll also talk to FDH about the diary of how A__ should behave at GM's house. Since it's her mom's house, she obviously gets to make the decision. I think it probably would be helpful to have a list to refer back to of what he needs to do. We wrote down his grounding rules this time and that made it easier for him to remember/understand when he was restricted from something he wanted. Rewards for checks hasn't worked in the past for him (he cheated on his star chart), but the last attempt was a few years ago, so maybe he's old enough now to handle it.

Thanks for the help and encouragement!

if DD have the kind of grandparents that you described-like not the best caregivers, we would limit her time there significantly. that is the key to this situation.

as about grounding. Your SS seems to be grounded very often and rather elaboratelly. no this, no that..if grounding would work, it would work after first few times. it apparently does not work. in my opinion his time at GM needs to be limited to maybe once every other week until he gets a bit older.

also if you guys want to treat him like your son, then it does not matter if you taking exams or are busy with anything else, we cannot be taking breaks when we have kids. so if SS is better off with dad than with grandmas, then he needs to be at dads. but if parents are too busy, then kids end up at grandparents who are not the best caregivers in your situation. then kid is to blame and he is to be grouned. when in reality parents have to be grouned by not taking care of a kid who needs more structure than grandparents can provide.