Two weeks later and still no agreement. BM cannot remember what she says or agrees to from one day to the next. It is SO frustrating. We are beginning to believe she's on something for her anxiety. She slurs her words, talks super slow and her memory and ability to reason are functioning at a lower level than usual (and "usual" for her is pretty low, believe me). Does anyone know if such meds as Paxil and Zoloft have such side effects? Imagine how trying this has been for us! Our lawyer thinks she's extremely jealous of me ... I'm not surprised. She is so insecure.

At the very least, we go to court in August if no agreement is reached before then. Honestly, I think that if it does go to court she will end up getting much less than she wants. We are being so generous with her, but if we wind up in court we will ask for much more. But she is being too irrational to see clearly. The end is definitely in sight -- but I don't believe it will end outside of court ... (sigh) ...

I have to keep reminding myself to remain calm. Once she officially gives up custody everything shifts to our favor. She will no longer hold all the cards or the power she so desires. Funny thing is that she is way too dumb to realize what giving us primary physical custody really means! She truly believes that if she decides to move back here in the future we will simply hand my SD back over to her. That's part of my silver lining, along with the obvious fact that my SD will be SO MUCH BETTER off with us. She's been living with us for a month now and already I see positive changes to my SD's self esteem.

Good news! WE WON -- IT'S (ALMOST) OVER!

Mediation day was today. Bottom line the mediator told BM that she was not going to be awarded the unreasonable requests she was making, so an agreement was hammered out with the assistance of the mediator. At this point there were two major sticking points, and the mediator agreed that we were being more than reasonable. BM did not get what she wanted we did. So, because of BMs uncooperative attitude and greediness, she got MUCH less than she asked for. If she had worked with us before mediation, she would have gotten more than she ended up with. Oh well BOO HOO Maybe this will be a good lesson for her nah, I doubt it! :-)

I never dreamed that we would have such successful mediation. They always tend to favor the mothers, but this time the system worked. Hooray for that!

Mom 2 4 - Congratulations!! I am so happy for you and your SD. Sometimes good does prevail in these cases. GOD was smiling down on your today. Keep us posted on how SD progresses in your very nurturing environment.

Awesome! Good for you!

Thanks for the well wishes! I suppose I was a bit premature, and knowing how BM is, I should have known. As I posted on Pashan's latest post (again congrats, Pashan!), the day after mediation BM started "forgetting" what was agreed to during the mediation session. So, off to court we go. We are 95% there, and the good thing is that she has not changed her mind on giving us custody. Our attorney tells us that she will not be awarded the crazy things she wants, so we're pretty comfortable with the whole thing right now and going to court.

My SD had a weekend visit with BM this weekend, and SD came back distraught. Her Mom is making her feel terribly guilty for enjoying living with us. What I really think is cool is that my SD will open up to me with her feelings and emotions. I guess I'm a rational outside ear! My husband actually told me last night "something's bothering her, and she won't tell me what it is -- can you talk to her". Well, that's always the way it starts out. I talk to her and she opens up, then we go and find her Dad and he joins the conversation. I feel really honored that she trusts me in that way. We've come a long way baby!

Honestly, guys, I really belive that BM has some mental issues. I'm not being catty or cruel, I truly believe it. BM never thinks about her own daughter's welfare or happiness, only her own. She doesn't mind lying to her own child and she's perfectly fine with the guilt trip thing. And then there's the fact that she can't remember what she says from hour to hour.

How nice that your SD confides in you. This is a big step. She has finally figured out who the good guys are and she is taking steps to follow the correct path. This is a major accomplishment, you are to be congratulated. You have struggled with her and your efforts are paying off for her and for you. I know what you mean about the biomom. My SD's biomom is the same way. Unfortunately, SD did not chose the correct path. Yes, she now belongs to Uncle Sam, but she has not gotten a ship date yet, so she is just floating from one friend to another to avoid getting a job and dealing with the real world as an adult. She now has a partner in crime; a new friend, the same age and doing the same thing. This too shall pass, but not soon enough for me or her father. We don't really talk to each other, in fact, since I don't agree with what she is doing (and she knows this), she avoids me most of the time.
You are lucky you received your SD much earlier in her life which allowed you to have a bigger impact on her life. Keep up the good work and let us know how it goes in court. I will be thinking about you.

" I really belive that BM has some mental issues ... never thinks about her own daughter's welfare or happiness, only her own. She doesn't mind lying to her own child and she's perfectly fine with the guilt trip thing."

All other humans exist to serve her, only her feelings count, and she refuses to believe that she can't do whatever she pleases? Look up "Narcissistic personality disorder" on the web.

OH .... MY ...... GOSH .... Lazygardens, thanks for the info.

That describes her so perfectly that I've now got a knot in my stomache. It's scary.

Can you imagine the dysfunction in that house? My SD has a BM with raging symptoms of NPD and a step-dad who is verbally abusive!

I think I'm gonna be sick.

Quick rant - Not everything is a disorder. Some people just are jerks. They act selfishly and with disreguard for the wellbeing of others. It isn't a disorder, it is a choice.

Mom_2_4:
Study the ways to deal with them, because Satan will be wearing ice skates before she changes.

Bill -
If you can get someone to see that life would be easier for them and others if they acted differently, and get them to act differently, they were just jerks and it's a choice.

Look it up: NPD is a well-known problem in psychology, and very resistant to change. Fortunately, it's not common in the full-blown version, but it's a real doozy to have to deal with. They can be charming as long as you are useful, but as soon as you cross them, you become the enemy and lower than whale poop.

Spoiled brats are resistant to change - no doubt. Psychologist put lables on lots of things, and they have become increasingly willing to label every possible behavior as some sort of disease. Maybe they will come up with a great new drug to cure NPD and we can medicate all the spoiled brats in the world along with all the kids who can't sit still.

Behaviors are choices. Feelings are usually not. The fact that someone does not make a good choice does not negate the fact that there was a choice to be made. There is no reason to excuse bad behavior when the person could have made another choice.

I read the description - in short it says "acts like a 2 yr old." Everyone acted this way at one point in their lives. Most people learn more effective behaviors somewhere along the way. Some people don't face consequences that force them to develop better behaviors. It really isn't suprising that someone who gets away with acting like a 2 yr old for 30+ years is resistant to change.

I agree that bad behavior is a mostly choice, but in reading the literature on NPD, it says that if a person meets at least 5 of the criteria, they are considered to have NPD, albeit a mild case. In this instance, BM exhibits EACH AND EVERY ONE of these behaviors to the extreme. And there are a total of 31 (count 'em -- thirty one!) traits and behaviors. It's much more than acting like a 2 year old. It permeates every part of your life. It defines not only how you act, but who you are.

Check this out: http://www.angelfire.com/ego/narcissism/easy.html

I have been dealing with BM for over 7 years now, and I was often bewildered as to why she acts the way she does. No reasonable or sane person could ever act this way day in and day out. Yes, we all act like spoiled brats from time to time, but this woman is always this way. In reading about NPD, the pieces of the puzzle suddenly fit together. It all makes sense, but in a sickening kind of way.

So, thanks Lazygardens. All this time I was wondering what was wrong with US -- why couldn't we deal with her more effectively? Why is everything such a struggle? Why does the most simple thing turn into a monumental problem with her? Why can't she hold a rational conversation or deal with conflict without getting upset and defensive? (BTW -- if you read some of my earlier posts from last year, you'll see that this has been a problem I've mentioned often). Now I know why.

So, now that I know about NPD, and truly believe this is the case, my mission today is to take Lazygarden's advice and read up on how to deal with these people. It won't do any good for the custody case right now, but we'll be prepared for the future. For there will be conflict -- that's a given.

Hmmm... how about this that I found on Sam Vaknin's website:

"For a narcissist, a child is a dream come true, but only in the most egotistical sense. When the child is perceived as "reneging" on his chief duty (to provide his Narcissist parent with a constant supply of adoration) the emotional reaction is harsh and revealing. It is when the Narcissistic parent is disenchanted with his child that we see the true nature of this pathological relationship. The child is totally objectified. The Narcissist reacts to a breach in the unwritten contract with wells of agression and agressive transformations: contempt, rage, emotional and psychological abuse, even physical violence. He tries to annihilate the real child (brought to the Narcissist's awareness through the child's refusal to act as before) and substitute it with the subservient, edifying, former version."

Certainly explains her behavior over the weekend visitation ... and does not bode well for future visits with BM.

mom_2_4 ...
I think the kid is old enough to understand that BM is a lot like a 2-year old who never grew up, she's not going to change, and that the only response to ANY abuse is to call 911 and have the cops take her away.

"Their worst weapon is their mouth. With their mouth they spit verbal negations and dispense emotional abuse. Their vocal cords are their method of attempting to control others." Maybe explain to the kid that BM feels bad and scared inside, so BM tries to make DD feel bad so BM can feel better. Tell her its wrong, but grownups can be wrong.

Bill -
Although everyone has some of the traits some of the time, true hard-core clinical narcissism is one of the most destructive, malignant personalities to deal with. It's worse than a paranoid schizophrenic, because a narcissist can be charming and witty and a hell of a lot of fun ... until they turn on you like a Great White Shark and rip you to shreds.

A prominent example of a pathological narcissistic personality is Saddam Hussein ... unfortunately he also acquired the means to afflict an entire country, and by the time anyone realized how dangerous he was, he had a death-grip on them, and an army of toadys.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. I think this whole trend in psychology to label behaviors as disorders is total bunk. If it makes people feel better to label something and create and anacronym to use over and over, fine for them. Personally, I think it is a waste of time and undermines peoples belief that they can change their own behavior if they choose to do so. It is just a circular expanation. The person has these traits so they have X disorder. Then the person has X disorder, so that is why they have those traits. In reality, the label is just a description of the problem and should not be viewed as a justification for behavior.

I am by no means a mental healthcare professional, but I don't believe that labeling a disorder justifies or changes the behavior. There is without a doubt a very real difference between a normal personality and one with a mental disorder. I have a deceased aunt who was schizophrenic. I don't believe she chose to be that way, and I don't believe she had any control over it -- nor would she have consciously or willingly put her family through that hell. Labeling her a paranoid schizophrenic had no effect on her life whatsoever. Seeing her through my (then!) teenage eyes, her erratic behavior scared the bejeebers out of me.

Labeling a mental disorder and studying the possible causes and cures can only help both the patient and the family. It think it's a comfort to the family to understand what is going on and why -- and how to effectively deal with this person.

In this instance, a lightbulb went off in my head when I read the NPD symptoms. It was so eerie that there could have been a picture of BM next to the description. In addition, I also found a paper on relationhips between a narcissist and an abuser. They feed off of each other in a sick kind of way.

To me, knowledge is power. My hubby and I now feel better equipped to help my SD through what she will inevitably face in the future.

Oh and Bill -- to be fair -- psychology has always been of interest to me. In the past few days I have probably read more info on this disorder than the average Joe would have, but I still find psychology fascinating.

My Two Cents I agree with both sides

For a normal person
We cant control how we feel, but we can control how we act!

Two weeks out of the month, I have no problem with that, the other two weeks it is a struggle. It is most commonly known as PMS. It got significantly worse after childbirth. The doctors say that it will keep getting worse until I hit menopause. For the difficult two weeks, I take vitamin B6. It takes the edge off.
However, when I forget the B6 watch out! Noise, Children screaming, TV too loud, etc. Makes me soooo up tight, I tremble inside. I have to fight myself not to explode over the simplest things. I get clumsy, bumping into objects. It is horrible.

It is amazing, how this can impact every aspect of my life! I am glad there is a label and research done. It helps me understand and control what is going on (knowledge id power). It amazes me how just a little extra of a certain vitamin can make such a dramatic difference.

Mental illness, just like any other problem, cant be fixed unless it is recognized as a problem. I have a step-step sister who is a paranoid schizophrenic. I met her for the first time, when she was in her early twenties and doing real well. She moved into my home and was a joy to be around. Now, she is doing badly! She is at one the best facilities and they can not regulate her medicine, they cant get rid of the voices in her head. Knowledge of mental illness can help deal with and control it.

I use to think that behavior was more learned from your environment, then being born with it, until my second child was born. His father died before he was even born and he has soooo many of his boi fathers personality traits it is kind of eerie. It trips out his grandma.

Just my two cents from personally experience.

I'm not opposed to all psychology. I'm just opposed to the total abuse of the idea of "mental illness." I have no doubt that there are people who are legitimately mentally ill. However, I find it HIGHLY unlikely that suddenly half the kids in the country have ADD or ADHD or apparently now NPD. It is only a matter of time before someone comes out with a new expensive drug to treat NPD is 3 yr olds and "cure" all their selfish behaviors.

Maybe I just draw the line at disorders. It seems like everything labeled a disorder is the medical equivalent of a Hallmark holiday. You think that if they really thought it was a disease, they could at least call it a "syndrome" or a name that ends in "ia" :)

I believe that the increase development and use of aspectisize and other environmental pollutants is just as much to blame for the increase in ADHD as the more recent trend to turn to drug therapy in place of more traditional approaches such as diet and behavioral therapy. Because drug therapy is easier.

I also think (but I could be all wet) as long as the disorder has an acknowledged name, the insurance companies will pay for treatment.

Betty: I also think the environment has alot to do with these types of problems. Just think, kids didn't have this much trouble years ago. I read an article once that said that our kids are maturing much faster due to the growth hormones given to cows, pigs, etc. We eat these foods which contain the hormones and wala, kids maturing way too early and growing bigger than their parents. Gives you something to thing about, huh.

Betty I agree with your assessment of PMS -- yucky stuff --and I think we all deal with it from time to time. But again, knowing that the cause is hormonal, we can deal with it better. (And so can our husbands, right Bill?! hee hee).

Bill, I also agree with you on the over diagnosis of ADHD. At one time my oldest was thought to have ADHD by a physician, and I fought back. Turns out she was just bored at school because she wasn't being challenged. Knowledge -- I armed myself with information.

I can't argue with the fact that many, many things are overdiagnosed (or improperly diagnosed) in our society and people think there is always a magic pill to "cure" it.

But I think Lazygardens nailed it with BM. For years we have struggled with this woman and her bizarre behavior. Now, it seems, we have a name and a face for the difficulties we routinely encounter with her. And whether or not BM ever acknowledges or seeks help for her mental state, it really doesn't matter. WE are prepared.

Incidentially, when speaking with our attorney today, I asked her if she had ever heard of NPD. She responded that YES, she has dealt with it more than she cares to remember and she offered that the BM in this case has it BAD!

MIStepMom - You're right. Any billing has to come with the diagnostic code.

Bety -
Check Dr. Phil.com for the show they did on PMS/menopause recenlty ... it's linked to some excellent OTC remedies.

Bill -
Psychiatry has "disorders", medicine has "syndromes" ... it's just the vocabulary they use.
Both mean nothing more than "a collection of observable behaviors/symptoms that tend to occur together and cause ___ as a problem". The label makes discussing the problems easier for professionals - if I say "Sjogren's syndrome" or "Narcissistic personality disorder" the professionals know exactly which collection I was talking about. It's not excusing it, it's just a convenient way to discuss it and predict its course.
A psychiatric "disorder" is only considered a problem if it is consistently making the person unable to function effectively, if it screws up their life repeatedly, and if their relationships with other people repeatedly end in nastiness.

And an interesting recent study on ADD/ADHD ... kids with chronic sleep deprivation are almost indistinguishable from those with true ADD/ADHD. The difference being that their symptoms go away when they start getting enough sleep.

Mom_2_4 :
The cops and lawyers see more than their share of over-the-top personality disorders.

The disorder comment was a joke - well kinda. It seems that every time a psychologist finds a person having problems in their life, they lump all the symptoms together and call it a disorder. The rest of society jumps on board and starts treating it as a disease instead of just a collection of symptoms. It seems that much of the time, the diagnosis of the symptoms takes the place of a diagnosis of possible underlying problems - see ADD. You notice that everyone says a kid HAS ADD. They don't say he EXHIBITS ADD. The implication is that ADD is causing the behaviors, not just describing the behaviors. This mindset leads us to medicate kids to treat the "disease" instead of examining the environment to see what is encouraging the behaviors.

I believe the mental health profession and society at large is shooting themselves in the foot with it's present course of action. Lots of dedicated people are working hard to get mental health problems covered by insurance and treated like physical diseases. This would be a slam dunk if we were just talking about schizophrenia, clinical depression etc. Unfortunately, we insist on lumping "Oppositional Defiance Disorder" and severe depression in the same boat and demanding they recieve equal treatment. Meanwhile, the people who need our help the most are left on the outside looking in.

I'm not really sure what the heck to say! I agree with both sides.....I think we are often too quick to label ADHD etc in children... I see this firsthand as a teacher. ADHD is what I call LOD-Lack of Discipline... I believe there are real diseases out there and there are some who are just too lazy to work on themselves, so they blame it on a disorder or their parents. I call that the Breakfast Club Syndrome! BUT when it comes to BM, sometimes it's nice to have a label for her. I wish I had a label for BM sometimes...helps to put things in perspective. But hey, whether she's paranoid delusional, Psychotic, Borderline, Schizo or normal (what the heck is normal anyway) she's still in your life and must be dealt with! Boy do I know that now! It's 10:48...I just got back from Marie's. She locked herself out...at 10:30 in the evening, the phone rings.. Help...I need a key! LOL! We are tied together for life, I might as well just learn to live with it!

Jennifer,
just curious- why would she call you for a key?

Brit,

I have a key to her house. There were times she would forget to pack medicine or other necessities such as backpacks and homework etc that were going back and forth. She eventually just gave me a key so the kids would not have to go without when she forgets things. It makes life easier. She gave another key to her friend and her husband, but they are away at the shore for the whole month, so we were her only hope! Kinda weird isn't it? Trust me, I laugh my arse off when I'm inside her house all by myself!! But Marie is such a scatterbrained person that without a key the kids would be going to school without backpacks!!!!

kinda weird isnt it? yes in my book it is very weird. But, whatever works for you.

Why is that weird? Just wondering.

Jennifer, I say the word is unusual, not weird. However, you two have an amicable relationship, which is fabulous. It would indeed be very weird for those of us who don't exactly have a great relationship with the X's to have a key to their homes! But it works for you, and that's great. You all get along well and thats a huge benefit for the kids you are jointly raising. I say HOORAY to that.

Well, today was court day. It played out just as I suspected. BM's ridiculous demands were rejected. She left the building an unhappy woman. We did as much as we could to negotiate with her over the past two months. In the end, her own demented and stubborn personality -- and her poor choice of attorney -- did her in. She got SO much less than she would have had she been willing to openly discuss the issues before now. To the very end she insisted that she get all the marbles -- and she lost. I dont feel bad for her, nor do I feel sorry for her right now. Maybe I'll feel sorry for her next week ... or next year ... but right now I'm dancing the Victory Gloat!

To make the big win all the sweeter, yesterday my SD was very testy and edgy. I finally cornered her and asked her what was on her mind. She burst into tears and told me tomorrow is court day and Im scared. I asked her what she was afraid of what she thought could possibly happen that made her so scared. Her answer even surprised me. She told me that she was scared that the judge would change everything and shed have to live with her mother

Score one for the good guys.

I second that - Score one for the good guys!!!

Congratulations!! That is so exciting. I hope everything continues to work for you and your SD.

Awesome! I'm so happy for you! You are a very lucky woman...blessed. I wish you and your family the very best.

Mom24 -
"To the very end she insisted that she get all the marbles -- and she lost." That's what often happens when that personality type runs into rational adults.

I'm glad your daughter got what she wanted.

Lazygardens, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your pointing us in the right direction. Knowing BM's mental state has given us a new understanding of the how's and why's of her personality. It gave us a fresh outlook and new tools -- and the power to maintain our own sanity. We absolutely made the right choice in cutting off negotiations with her towards the end. Talking to her was a fruitless waste of time, and the maneuver saved us immeasurable frustration and headache. This decision was powered by the NPD knowledge, thank you very much! :-)

Since my SD got the good news that it's final, she has been so happy. It's almost as if she's seeing the world and its possibilites for the first time. She's like a sponge, seeking to absorb new information and ideas -- all at once -- and she's become a bubbly little question machine powered by the Energizer Bunny.

At the same time I realize there will be anxiety. My SD has experienced our world of openness and independence in bits and pieces, but now it is her new permanent reality. I know that there will be some bumps as she learns and grows, but we are ready. And I think she is, too!

Mom - what wonderful news. I am relieved that it is all over now. Relieved mostly for your SD, she can "get on with her life". I know that she is ready! I can only imagine the jubilation in your house today, what a great weight has been lifted from you shoulders.

Congratulations and good luck!!! :-)
P

Thanks Pashan. Yep, I'm not getting too much work done today! I have to get grounded again ... really, I do ... tomorrow, I have to work ... :-)

We have a family "date" tonight to watch Shark Week on Discovery ... complete with popcorn .. :-) hee hee! Seems that my SD has been wanting to watch the Shark Week broadcasts for a long time and her mother would never let her - she told my SD that it was too scary and it would "freak her out". Jeez, this woman wouldn't even let this child watch Sponge Bob because Mr. Squarepants dares to utter the word "stupid" ... oh brother!

STUPID!
STUPID!
STUPID!

Squidward, did I just say that horrid word three times?

Jennifer25,
the answer to your question is I guess its because I have seen all the things your write about her here on this forum. Truthfully, if you were saying that stuff about me I would not give you a key to my house. Sorry just the honest truth. Its great that you have a key and it works for you. I am a private person and any ex (his or mine) would not have a key to my house. But, than again we dont have small children in the loop any longer so there is no reason. If it works for you than that is great. This is just an my opinion thats all.

Oh my, no Spongebob?!?! What on earth... We love Spongebob at my house! I love the episode where Spongebob and Patrick learn to say (*&^$ and so they say it over an over until Mr. Crabs sets them straight on the 8 words (or is it 10) that you can NEVER EVER say... until Crabs drops something on his toe! It's a classic!!!! Wouldn't SD's mom just DIE?!?! She's a nut (A *stupid* nut) ROTFLMAO!!!

How is Shark Week? Did she get to see the episode Monday "Anatomy of a Shark Bite?" I was so upset that I had to work and didn't get to see that one. Our VCR bit the dust a few months ago and we haven't replaced it yet so there was no recording it either!

P

We love Spongebob, too! I DON'T NEED ANY WATER!

We missed the Shark Bite one -- and I don't think I'd have wanted her to watch THAT episode! But we did catch the Shark Man and Robo Shark ... my SD made sure we didn't miss those. We all ate dinner on TV trays while watching the other night.

My gosh, my SD is just transforming before my eyes. It's as if the finalized custody agreement gave her permission to be HERSELF. As if she was afraid to allow herself to fully open up because she feared she'd be forced to permanently return to dysfunction junction.

There are many glimmers of her mother's influence, though. Those, I'm sure, will fade with time. For instance, we received her school supply list in the mail and set off to buy them. She thought she had to buy things exactly as written on the list -- no choice, no color, no expression of self -- like standard issue yellow pencils vs. sparkly design ones. And a 120 sheet notebook wouldn't do if the list says 100 sheet. She fears authority and the consequences of perceived nonconformance. So, we did some explaining about standards and requirements -- and the fact that you can "conform" and assert your individuality at the same time. That it's OK to do that. SD was thrilled to learn this -- and bought the sparkly pencils. It was another learning experience! She came home and admired the school supplies that SHE picked for the longest time!

Pashan -- get that new VCR. But have no fear, Discovery will repeat those episodes for months to come. :-)

Was she living with Mommy Dearest?!

"HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU, NO SPARKLY PENCILS!!! WHY DO YOU HAVE SPARKLY PENCILS IN YOUR BOOKBAG!?!?!?!"

Poor thing has got alot of growing to do. There is so much you and DH and her wonderful siblings can bring into her life. Diving boards, shark TV, sparkly pencils... she must just be in awe of what she can do and how far she can stretch those legs of hers now.

It must just feel wonderful to be her...
P

Mom24 -
Buy her a couple of gel pens with SPARKLY COLORED INK too.

:)

Bill -
I found this GREAT explanation of a personality disorder:

The difference between having a personality and having a personality disorder is not in degree - but in flexibility. Personality disorders are rigid patterns of perceiving and reacting to people and to events. ... As a result of this pathological straitjacket, people with personality disorders are dysfunctional. "Normal" personalities adapt much faster and more easily to changes in external circumstances, to new demands, new people and new situations.

In other words, despite lots of evidence that it's NOT working, a pserons with a personality disorder will keep acting the same way because they literally can't see any other way of doing things ... a normal person will change the behavior.

Still not buying it. Seeking out new solutions is largely a learned behavior. You could restate that definition to be "The difference between being a jerk and being a major jerk is stubbornness and lack of consequences." If there was a true "straightjacket" on their minds, disorders would be completely untreatable. The reality is that many people with "disorders" learn alternative behaviors eventually if they are forced to.

Bill -
A shrink only calls something a disorder if it's screwing up the person's life (dysfunctional = not working!) or the lives of their contacts. Otherwise it's a "trait".

""The difference between being a jerk and being a major jerk is stubbornness and lack of consequences.""
It's more like inability to even SEE the consequences or learn from them.

"If there was a true "straightjacket" on their minds, disorders would be completely untreatable."

Many of them are extremely difficult to treat, especially in the basically narcissicistic group. It takes a major "wake up call" ... divorce, bankruptcy, etc. and even then many of them just walk off and start over with fresh players rather than change their ways.

However, if you can spot the disorder and know what they react to, you can usually get what you want without being hurt, or can minimize the damages. It's like snake handling - once you know it's a python, just stay out of the loops.

Sorry, but I'm siding with Bill on this one. On most everything, really, but usually silently. I have a degree in psychology and have worked at a hospital for the criminally insane. I'm telling you: personality disorder is what we used to called spoiled dam*ed rotten. I know they can change, I've seen them change. They can change their behavior pretty darned fast if it suits them. They are just master manipulators. Bottom line: they do what they do because it WORKS! When it quits working it's easier to find other victims than to practice delayed gratification.
j

Wow that is really sad about the school supplies.

But Jerri, a person has to admit and acknowledge that they have a problem in order to "fix" it. They have to own it. You can bet your last dollar that this BM will never admit to a problem.

My SD spent her scheduled weekend with BM this weekend. We had prepared my SD for what she might expect and how to be herself without hurting her mother's feelings. We were able to do this because of our education on NPD. And guess what? My SD came back and told us "You were right, my mom did this and this and this, just like you said she might". There is great satisfaction in knowing that we made her better able to cope with the nastiness her mom would surely dish out!

Yes, I'm sure it's true that everyone presents characteristics of one "disorder" or another. But it's when it affects your whole life -- your whole being -- that it becomes a problem. It's when the symptoms have a continuing negative impact on those around them that is a big deal. It's when a person can't function normally. It's when it screws up their life, their relationships, their kids. I'm not gonna let her screw up this kid! I care about my SD -- as I'm sure BM does -- but why, then, would BM try to screw her up? Hmmm ... food for thought!

Mommy Dearest indeed, Pashan! Good analogy.

PS -- Lazygardens -- we already got the sparkly pens, too ... along with the fancy binder, cartoon themed notebooks, designer pencilbox ... :-)

Oh my gosh ... my SD keeps "leaking" all these crazy ideas ... things she learned from her mother!

Top 10 Rules at BM's House:

1) If you go to sleep with a light or nightlight on, it can ruin your eyes
2) Making decisions on your own is bad, very bad
3) Children don't get privacy and should remain in an adult's line of vision 24/7
4) Picking a Halloween costume such as a vampire, witch, ghost or mummy is evil
5) Thou shalt have no fun at the dinner table. Don't make jokes, don't talk, and most of all ... DO NOT have fun
6) Don't get wild and crazy and be a kid. That's why you go on a vacation each year to Disney -- to get the "fun" out of your system
7) You can't get wet after you eat -- it can make you sick
8) Kids should live in total and constant fear of being abducted by a stranger, and so should their parents
9) Never ask questions if you don't understand, and don't be curious about anything
10) Kids should be kept in the dark about anything going on in their family or in the "adult" world. Kids won't understand and shouldn't ask.

Can you believe this crap!

jeeezzzzzz....what a nutcase. Is it worse than you thought it was? Seems like it by what you are saying

mom_2_4 -
SHEESH!

And what are the Top 10 Rules at your house?

Yes Britbrit, things at BMs house are much worse than we suspected. I suppose that, prior to now, this craziness didnt spring forth since my SD didnt spend enough time here. But now that shes been living with us full time for -- what -- 2 months now, these things are slowly coming to light.

Lazygardens, good question!

Top 10 Rules at our House:

1) Be nice, be polite.
2) We will all be respectful and supportive of each other.
3) If you use it, put it back. If you dirty it, clean it.
4) Use your brain! Think! Assert your individuality!
5) If you have a problem or a question, speak up. Anything can be openly discussed. If it appears that something is on your mind, you will be asked about it.
6) Everyone has the right to retreat to their private sanctuary (aka bedroom) without being disturbed.
7) Knock before entering. ALWAYS!
8) Everyone has the right to their own opinion or ideas without being criticized (well, if its really funny maybe well all share a hearty laugh over it).
9) Laughter is a good thing. Jokes welcome anytime. Play, have fun!
10) Remember your manners. (Ok, its fine to get gross now and then for a giggle, but always mind your manners when in public). Say please and thank you.

Hmmm its hard to squeeze an entire lifestyle and philosophy into 10 simple rules! :-) Oh -- and I almost forgot my favorite .. passed down thru the generations ... and never fails to get a smile from the kids ... 'YOU'RE BIG AND UGLY ENOUGH TO DO IT YOURSELF' ...