Let me make sure I understand. The original plan had a 60" space for separate 30" fridge and freezer units, but you're not going to put them there. You are instead going to get a single fridge/freezer unit to go in the 36" space between cabinetry/counter and a structural wall. Is that right? Or are you keeping the separate fridge and freezer units, but not having them installed flush to one another, with the fridge in this spot and the freezer elsewhere?

In any event, I think the answer is going to depend on (1) function of the fridge and (2) your goals for the finished look. You need to check the manufacturer's specs to see that the fridge will work in that area and there will be no problem with the door swing (probably OK, as it was originally designed to be on the other side of the same wall). So that gets to #2. The alcove look is very nice and clean. That's what we did when re did our kitchen -- took the countertop-adjacent fridge with no panel and changed it to a tight, clean alcove. It let the over-fridge cabinet be pulled to the front of the alcove for a clean column and provided neat separation for the range alcove on the other side, where we used no uppers.

If you don't use a wall to make an alcove on the left side of the fridge, you'll need to use (and be OK with) a panel that rests on the countertop. You also need to make sure you're good with how the wall cabinets will work in that 66" space where the fridge is now. Secondarily, if you still have a separate freezer, it might all look awkward with them being apart from one another but not 'really" apart from one another.

Do consider posting your plans here so you can get input from folks regarding the plans. You say the alcove won't work, but why won't it work?

Hello, Jakabedy, thanks for your input -- hope you won't be sorry you jumped in after this . To address your 2 points - not sure what you mean by the function of the fridge, but on the second point, I'm more into function and efficiency than the finished look, although since this is an open plan in a small house, look isn't unimportant. The kitchen is visible from the living room, and the dining area is essentially the 8 1/2 or 9 feet to the south of the kitchen. No wall. The living room is to the south of the dining area.

Just to clarify the kitchen description a bit - the alcove is 72 inches, intended to have two 36" units in it. It will have to remain, as it's structural. The kitchen is pretty small, so I've decided to move the freezer into the laundry area so I have room for a pantry closet in the alcove instead, figuring that will get more use than the freezer, which would be mostly for long-term storage. Having lost the in-kitchen freezer, the formerly 36" all-fridge unit has now become a 36" fridge with freezer on bottom.

The alcove placement for the fridge & freezer didn't work for a number of reasons - its a bit complicated. The original plan had a small pantry in the blind corner (that 36" space again, plus the 30" where I'd now have counter), but the sink and cooking area were at the other end of the room, too inconveniently far away from the fridge. I also want double wall ovens, which the architect put on the north wall at the end of the counter run up against the pantry. (I really do need to learn how to get the plan online!) But that left only 3' of workspace and cabinet space to the west of the 36" cooktop, and 2' on the east. The east wall is only 8' long, and has window along the entire length. With a dishwasher and a decent sized sink there'd be maybe another 5' of countertop - which would no doubt be taken up with dish drainer, toaster, coffee pot.... No upper cabinets and very little under cabinet.

I cook and bake a lot, and having folks for dinner is one of the major forms of entertainment in our small not-quite-a-town. So multiple cooks at times.

I tried putting the ovens in the alcove, figuring they and the freezer would be used less often than the fridge, and moved the fridge to the northwest part of the wall to be closer to the cooking area. (Also thought having the freezer at the far outside corner would let DH rummage for icecubes out of the work area.) But that still left me with very little counter workspace and storage. And two architects strongly disliked the fridge that close to the cooktop. (Don't really see why, myself, but....)

Trying to leave the fridge in the alcove and keep the pantry in the corner, I added an island (also tried a peninsula but it seemed I gained more storage space with the island), which helped some, but because the kitchen is narrow, it had to run perpendicular to the cooktop, and it felt like a barrier that I'd have to be going around all the time.

Anyway, you see (I hope) my dilemma. I will try to figure out the plan-posting stuff tonight.

THANKS!

My fridge is at the end of a run, at the end of the kitchen by the DR door. It's fine. It was the only place I could put it. For aesthetics, I fully boxed it in.
Casey

(I really do need to learn how to get the plan online!)

Yes, yes you do.

If you are talking about a fridge at the end of a run with a perpendicular counter next to it, creating a deep dark hole, you probably don't want to do that.

Thanks, Sombreuil Mongrel and Marcolo...

Marcolo, that's exactly what I'm talking about! Fridge at the end with a perpendicular counter right next to it! I'm not too worried about the "deep dark hole" since there's a full wall of windows opposite, and that's where I plan to park my mixer, scale, big SS mixing bowls (commercial type) etc. Think of it as an appliance garage without the garage door! My question is more of the "will it be uncomfortable getting in and out of the fridge?"

But on the "yes, yes you do" part... I've been trying to play with Sweethome 3d software this afternoon but finding it a bit frustrating. I'll have a 10'6" ceiling and can't find how to adjust the program to fit. Will try SketchUp next. Can you recommend anything else? (I did follow the link you provided, but before I can do any of that I still need to create a drawing I can email or upload somewhere.) I don't have access to a scanner, or I'd just send in my scaled hand-drawing...

Thanks!

It's not about the 'dark' part. It's about the 'deep' part. It's inaccessible. An appliance garage can be built with a roll-out bottom shelf, but a countertop stays where it is.

Yes, but....the "hole" would only be 24" deep. My mixing bowls are 16" across and the mixer is roughly 15x15. Not terribly inaccessible even if pushed all the way to the back of the "hole", and frankly, I'm willing to lose the few inches at the back if I don't push things all the way back if this arrangement will make the rest of the room work.

Any other thoughts?

Where are you getting 24" deep? Even a counter depth fridge is about 31" deep, more or less, with handles and required space from rear wall. And that's where you'll be standing as you try to reach to clean the corner.

What your describing also sounds like it will look like a mistake or cheap retrofit.

I responded to your request on my thread about the software used to create the rendering I have of my kitchen. But you don't actually need a scanner to upload your plan. You could take a photo of it, upload the photo to a photo hosting site, and post from there. It can be tricky to take a good picture of a plan drawing on paper, but it can be done.

Do you have an Office Depot, Staples, Office Max, or Kinkos near you? They all have machines that will scan your document and e-mail it right to you. I did one page recently at OD, and it was less than $2.

If you scan your plan, you'll have to turn the resulting pdf into a jpeg for posting. If you don't know how to do that, email me and I'll send you directions.

Having a plan to post will make all the difference in the assistance you'll get here. :)

To clarify my situation:

For one thing, your layout has people running to the fridge for drinks while you are taking things out of the oven. The fridge needs to be further toward the perimeter of the kitchen, the oven further in. Switch places between the two, for starters.

Burntfingers, I feel your pain. For your sanity do not do what you have on paper.

We will be going through our second remodel and it was the refrigerator that was the problem in both house. We had a freezer we couldn't open up enough to clean it when it was in place.
This kitchen it's the centerpiece. yuck. We kept tweaking it until it finally fell into place and now our full sized frig will be completely recessed into a 30" depth area - yeah. By moving the frig to a better location, everything else fell into place.

Coastal modern has a kitchen with a similiar wall that you are proposing but with the frig able to open fully.

Aloha (thanks) just made me realize that I forgot to mention one apparently important fact - the fridge will have the hinge on the left, so the door will be able to open fully, and food can be taken from the fridge and deposited right on the counter or taken to the island in about one step....

Thanks!

Burnt - you keep asking if it will be annoying to have the fridge in the corner, and I think everyone is trying in a round about way to say, "YES! DON'T DO IT!" I am still confused why the fridge didn't work where the pantry is, then everything else moved down, so the wall would go: fridge, pantry, oven. And I'm not sure what you're talking about with a niche. But, I can be dense - often. Is that the shaded area between oven and fridge?

Okay, after re-reading all your posts, I think you mean the "niche" is the area of counter between the fridge and the wall, as you have things currently drawn. Where you have ka written on your plan. Yes, that's different, and may look unusual, but not a function problem. And, you didn't want to put the fridge at the end where the pantry is because you were concerned about a barrier island, correct? But, the thing is, people fix the barrier island problem - which occurs when the fridge has to be put across the island from the only sink - by doing what you are doing anyway - adding a sink to the island. You shouldn't have a barrier island problem, because everything will go straight from the fridge (and pantry, for that matter) to your prep area on the island, which contains a sink. It should function really well. I then think most people would avoid the weird "niche" by doing corner ovens. That takes up more space, but that area of counter isn't truly useful except for storing items. If you really want to keep it, you might want to consider taking the cabinetry straight across that area, to make it more of an appliance garage. Does that make sense? (draw a line from the current fridge location straight up to the wall, and have the cabinet go down to the counter.)

It's difficult to tell from your sketch but, if it will fit, I'd try the following.
Slide the cooktop to the right and move the ovens to the left of the cooktop, either centering both of them on that wall or leaving a few feet of counter in between to act as a landing or small prep area. Move the fridge to the pantry position and move the pantry to the oven position leaving some counter space in between as a landing area.
This will accomplish a few things.
1. It creates a hot zone so that all the cooking takes place behind the island. Also people accessing the fridge are won't be in the way of hot stuff coming out of the oven.
2. People accessing the fridge will not be in the work zone at all.
3. It moves the rangetop somewhat closer to the main sink.
4. It eliminates the dead corner next to the present fridge location.
Again, since there are few demensions on your present sketch I'm not sure that there is sufficient space to do this. But if there is give it some consideration and let us know what you end up doing.

Burntfingers: I"ve been reading over your thread and think I understand the alcove issue and the niche issue. But in looking at the layout, I am not at all convinced that you couldn't do much better. What's not clear to me is if there are other constraints or desires: Do the range and cleanup sink need to stay where they are? Is the only window in the upper right corner? What's on the south side of the kitchen? Does it open completely into another room?

In short, I know this must be frustrating and you may feel you are reinventing the wheel...but I would encourage you to find a way to post a layout of the entire room (including doorways or whatever is on the south side, with measurements on it and anything that is not moveable (plumbing, venting, etc.)

In my experience there are some wonderful folks on this site, with great layout creativity. I'll bet if you and they put your heads together, you'll come up with a plan that you'll love.

Burnt--I definately agree that the fridge needs to be moved further away. That entire "east" wall is only 10' long at the most. (or so it appears!) Even if you put the fridge at the end of the run, that is NOT TOO FAR. The traditional "work triangle" is measured from the middle of appliances, and should be a minimum of 4' to a max of 11'. These are of course guidelines, and not set in stone, but good to keep in mind.

Marcolo is 100% correct on two of his posts. I agree entirely with the fact that you will have traffic to your refrigerator... people will be walking past the ovens & pantry to get to the fridge for snacks/ice/drinks, and you will be crossing in front of the fridge EVERY time you go to retrieve something from the pantry, or try to get something into the ovens. I think the fridge being furthest away on that wall is NOT a bad idea. At the very least swap the ovens and fridge like Marcolo suggested. I like the idea of the ovens in the 36" space in the corner, and then the pantry, then the fridge. Or even the pantry in the corner, then the ovens and the fridge in the "nook" with the fridge farthest out.
His second point that has most likely been glanced over without a second thought is that MOST fridges will be 33" deep front to back, not including their handles. This measurement doesn't include the small space that is usually left behind the fridge for ventilation and water lines, (if you're tying water to the fridge for ice, etc.) making it entirely possible that your fridge will stick out about 36" NOT including the handles. So that little area between the fridge and corner will most likly be 24" WIDE, but 36" inches deep, if not deeper! and the back will indeed be hard to reach, not to mention if there is an upper cabinet there...
This new measurement also means that someone standing at the fridge, and holding the door open (say DH is looking for munchies to go with his wine) will be standing very close to the cooktop, possibly impeding into your cooking space, or bumping you-- probably driving you nuts.

On the other hand, most oven units sit flush, or close to flush with surrounding cabinets at 24" deep, so a nook next to double ovens would indeed be 24" deep like you imagine. Also I assume no one but you will be opening the ovens on a regular basis, so the crowding issue at the cooktop is alleviated. And, if you ever need to move a dish from cooktop to oven (a roast after browning, say) it would be a very close walk between the two.

Islands are a wonderful barrier between people moving around in the kitchen and the cook working. I wouldn't be too terribly concerned about the isand being a barrier to your fridge at the end of that "east" wall, since as Controlfreakes points out, you have a sink in the island. I would be more concerned about the fridge luring people behind the barrier and into the cooking zone.

And one more note-- would you be open to swapping the DW to the other side of the sink?? I don't think you want that shoved into the corner either, and I imagine a lot of dishes will be stored in that upper cabinet-- you might want the DW right below it. If you do keep it in the corner, you will need a filler piece (2"-3") so the front of the DW doesn't scrape the front on the cabinet on the side, or bump into any cabinet knobs either.

Don't get discouraged. Layouts are hard. You're getting great feedbackhere, and eventually you'll make it perfect :)

If the fridge is moved to the alcove in place of the ovens, is it possible to position the oven stack in the NW corner, set on the diagonal? (I assume there would be adequate "landing pad" counterspace on either side of the ovens.) The oven stack might also be a nice counterbalance to the windows in the right (NE) corner.

I totally agree with noebee1313 re moving the DW to the right of the sink. Being able to unload clean dishes directly into nearby cabinets is a plus. In order to reach these storage areas, I think it's helpful to be able to stand on both the left and right sides of the DW. That can't be done if the DW is located next to a corner. Also, with the DW located under the corner window, are there fewer storage options nearby for the items that you're removing from the DW? If the DW is to the right of the sink, some of these items could go directly into the cabinet above.

Good luck.

bump....

If you do decide to go with this layout, you will need a minimum of 3" between the counter and the DW & fridge and 3" at each end of the range run.

Thanks, everyone, for all your suggestions and the time you've put in .... From your responses, I can see I really need to give you all much more information. (And I thought I was pretty wordy already!)

So, here's a sketch of the room layout (sorry about the skew and the size ... this is just so you can see what's around the part we've been dealing with). The dimensions of the room have changed slighty from what's shown - I stretched the south wall of the alcove 6" and moved the east wall out one foot.

The west (left) wall is 13' with two structural 6" walls at each end of the alcove. The walls are structural, and can't be moved. The north (upper) wall is 18 1/2' long (from back of pantry to back of sink) and has a 4x4 window in the northeast (upper right) corner; then there's about 6" of corner structure. The east (right) wall has window completely along to what I show as a shallow upper cabinet -- 11' from north wall to end of cabinet. Next to that there's 7' of sliding patio door, then about 1' of wall. We don't want something solid and heavy feeling at the end of these cabinets, to keep the space feeling open, and so the view can be seen from the table without obstruction. (The whole house has been sited for that view....) The dining area is only 8 1/2 feet deep and then opens to the living room. (LR is 1' lower than the kitchen/dining area, and separated by a 6" deep half wall. You can see all the way thru to the kitchen from the livingroom.

What do I want from this kitchen and why? I primarily want a kitchen that is functional and efficient, that makes the most of its relatively small space, that is primarily a one-cook kitchen but that can accommodate multiple cooks at times. My current kitchen is also small, and far from perfect, but although I could use a lot more counter space, it works well for me. I’d like this kitchen to be even better, and certainly no worse! (You can see my current kitchen here: http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/article/0,,266313,00.html ). I also want this kitchen to feel open, airy, and uncluttered. If I could get away with it, I’d have no upper cabinets at all, but since storage is really sparse elsewhere, I suspect I can’t get away with that.

Controlfreakecs - thank you for focussing me on the fact that I (very recently) added that prep sink! Revisiting that made me realize that I'd underestimated the distance to the north counter by 6", and also that I'd left out the 15" cabinet to the left of the DW. Eek!

Willtv - rearranging the cooktop, fridge and pantry as you suggested would be a great solution, but there’s only about 2’ to the right of the cooktop, because of the 4’ window there. (Don’t want to block the window with the hood….) And the support wall on the east side wouldn’t allow countertops between the pantry and the ovens.

Melissastar - the cooktop could move a bit to the left or right, but we can't have any talls on the east (or south) wall because it's all window....

Noebee & Kai - It would have been a lot easier design-wise to have the DW to the right of the sink. But functionally, I know I prefer it to the left -- I'm right handed, and when I'm scraping or rinsing off a plate, the plate is in my left hand. With the DW to the left, it's just scrape/rinse and place in DW, all in one motion. With the DW on the right, I have to turn and/or switch hands. It's just awkward (to me). FWIW, we have the dishwasher drawers now which may have influenced how I feel about placement, but we'll probably have them in this kitchen as well...

Everyone - Unless I'm really mis-reading them, according to the installation information for the fridge, it really is just 24" (unless I do a flush installation, when it would be 26"). (SubZero BI-35U)

I'd purposely *not* put the fridge on the perimeter because I want convenient access from the cooking area. There are only two of us unless we have friends over for dinner, so there's no real issue with a lot of traffic in and out of the fridge while I'm cooking. Most of the time there's just me in the kitchen. At the most, DH will sit and watch me "perform". And if I have to move over once or twice, no big deal. (We don't as a rule keep drinks or snacks in the fridge.)

But, based on your comments, I spent the weekend going over dimensions, rethinking and fiddling. When I finally started thinking of dimensions in "steps" instead of "feet" I came up with this:

Sorry about the poor scan...but I think you can get the general idea. I've tried to write in the measurement. I am trying to arrage the appliances etc. with the least-accessed farthest from the cooking area, so the pantry is at the south end of the alcove, then the fridge and ovens have swapped places. I've added in the 15" base cabinet to the left (north) of the DW.

Since it looks like there may be room, I'm considering adding a 12" cabinet (glass doors) at the south end of the island that will stand taller than the island itself. (The island will be lower than standard cabinets, better for working dough. I'm a baker.) If I do that, the prep sink would move to where it shows now in the sketch. Whether this gets added in will probably depend on how closed-in it would make the dining area feel.

Thoughts? And THANKS!

MUCH better :)

Noebee, thanks! And thanks for the bump too....

Paulines - each of the aisles is 4', so I think we're OK on that score.

Any thoughts on adding the cabinet at the south end of the island?

OK, stupid question: WHY, if your North wall is 18.5 ft long, is your island so small? It can EASILY be 7 ft long between the pantry and sink walls! 222"wall - 24"cabs - 42" aisle - 42" aisle - 24"cabs = 90" for island.

Anyway, my kitchen is only a 12'x13'6" "L" with island open fully on two sides, so my fridge (also separate from freezer) must, by necessity, be in the corner with the blind cab running along side it and an appliance garage in the dead space on the counter. But the fridge will be 3" in from the actual corner, not butt right against the counter. This doesn't bother me - the dead space is great for storing less-used appliances. The real benefit is that the fridge door opens into the aisle - not into the island (and main sink / prep area). It is accessible from either aisle and is just steps from either the cooktop (same wall) or range (opposite wall). The door when open will only block the blind cab. It is counter-depth. The only way access would be blocked is if 4 people are cooking at both cooktops and washing at both sinks at the same time - highly unlikely.

Now, I have another question - That "alcove" area is 36" deep? If so and you put both a fridge AND pantry there, then you will NEED pull-outs in the 42" wide pantry to access the back. Otherwise, leaving the entire 70" width means it can be a walk-in (step-in) with shelves wrapping all three sides.

Is there anyway you can re-draw your floorplan on graph paper? It is VERY difficult to understand your specs without it. Draw it at one square = 6".
Draw the exterior wall at one square around the three exterior walls and clearly mark where ALL the windows are in that space (and doors).

Sorry, my post wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to aisle space.

Coming off a corner, you need a minimum of 3" of base fill to allow drawers to function properly and pull clearance. For example, the 15" base cabinet at the top, right side of your plan, may have to be downsized to a 12" - what type of cabinet(s) are you planning for the end of the range run?

Hi, this is a very old post, but I just found it:) We are considering doing the same thing (turning the fridge). Did you end up doing it and if you did, how do you like it? Thanks!

We purchased a home with this kind of described Alcove next to the fridge. The upper cabinets go all the way back to the wall and it creates a dark deep tunnel effect on the counter area (and cupboards as well!) I'm looking for ideas on how to reclaim this space functionally while also not losing space I already use (ie drawers that need to be pulled out so I can't use that pullout areas space on the counter either.