To what kind of product are you referring?

Miele? Gaggenau? Wolf? Those products! I'm not sure where the unauthorized guys get their stock.

For what it's worth, I bought a probably unauthorized Insinkerator product off eBay which my GC fried by not reading the instructions and ISE was happy to service it. They had to go by date of manufacture instead of purchase because who the heck saves an eBay receipt for warranty service!?

I think it was the previous year's model water tank, and it was replaced with a new one. Anyway, I was impressed with ISE's service. I didn't call them for warranty work--I called them because they had an installation help line with real people on the WEEKEND!

So what was I saying? Oh, I think some of the unauthorized items might be old model overstock, but I'm not sure about some of them or where the sellers get them.

If you think SubZero is bad, try figuring out the ins and outs of US auto dealerships. All the above plus a complicated history to really make it obscure. But at least they'll honor the warranties.

How did the IR come by the product? Why is it that they can sell it yet the warranty is not honored by the company?

Many times the unauthorized retailer will come by the product illegitimately. It may come off the gray market, it may be used or damaged, or counterfeit, or it may have been illegally diverted by employees. You can't expect a manufacturer to warrant something when they have no idea of the chain of custody for that item. I've worked for manufacturing companies for most of my life, and it is amazing the illicit ways things can "fall of the truck" and end up for sale on the internet both eBay and fly by night sellers, flea markets, etc.

It evidently is an advantage to the company, regardless of what they say, to have IR out there selling product cheaply that they won't warranty.

It is NOT an advantage to the manufacturer to have unauthorized entities selling their products. It erodes their profits. It sends less than first quality goods into the marketplace; sometimes goods that were intended to be sold in other countries. Most manufacturers try to police the marketplace to stop unauthorized retailers from selling, but there are way too many out there.

Manufacturers are not only protecting themselves by establishing authorized retailers. They are protecting the consumer, making sure that the consumer is receiving first quality items from retailers who have agreed with the manufacturer to uphold certain standards.

How is this any different from Ford only permitting authorized Ford dealers to sell their new cars? Or when you buy new brand name kitchen cabinets, having to go through a KD/showroom that is an authorized dealer for those cabinets? Is this anti-free-trade or whatever?

So the company gets this vague swirl of good reputation that they don't actually have to uphold.

Actually, manufacturers have a network of authorized retailers because they want to uphold their good reputations and not have them ruined by retailers who are less than reputable.

Unauthorized retailers can sell things cheap because they don't have the same overhead as retailers who commit to doing things right. You buy from unauthorized retailers to save a buck and you take your chances.

A lot of companies doe this, in my experience. Some are better than others at telling you---e.g., Franke has a big disclaimer on their website that they will not honor warranties from unauthorized retailers, and then they list all of the authorized stores and online sites that can sell their products. I think the only real recourse you have is to go after the reseller, if they sold you the product claiming it had a warranty when, in fact, the warranty wasn't transferable. Beyond that, the manufacturer is pretty well within their rights---they don't have to honor a warranty transferred to a new owner, and they do have some good reasons for wanting to keep tabs on who is selling their product. (The warranty transfer is an issue beyond just the authorized v. illegal sellers, too---many appliance warranties are void once the original owner is no longer in the picture. We actually decided not to buy a specific brand of furnace because they touted their "lifetime" warranty and then we found out it wouldn't transfer to the new owner if we sold the house. The one we bought only had a 10-year warranty, but it transferred and we expect to sell in that period, so it was a better fit.)

"I guess one could have a (legal) issue with the IR who claims to be an "authorized retailer" or whatever else they claim"

I'm confused - what's the product? Did you buy it from an authorized or unauthorized internet retailer?

Sorry -- I meant to amend my post to include more info re the product; got distracted.

In this instance it happens to be a faucet (about which I've obviously been obsessing for too long now); KWC in particular.

However, the issue is very general, as many have pointed out with analogies (e.g., Ford, even).

What I guess is so confusing is that there are actually a somewhat finite number of big online retailers of homewares, and they obviously do a massive volume of business, which somehow serves to make them *feel* more legit. Are they, though, not? e.g., Homeperfect -- I bought a sink from them and I did ask them whether they were authorized and they said "yes" -- I wonder now. I don't think I even want to call the manufacturer and ask, hypothetically, whether they would in reality honor any warranty with them.

But I did check with KWC just now and got a very huffy, mortally offended woman acting as if I had just asked her to send me dirty pictures. I got the rather clear impression the answer [to whether homeperfect was in fact authorized, as they claim to be] was "no". Whether if push came to shove for a claim they would still respond that way, I don't know. The internet is full of people proclaiming how generous and no-questions-asked KWC's response has been. But they do maintain a scary section on their website (to which I was pointed) stating that they require a dated proof-of-purchase before discussing any warranty issues with you.

But this just begs the question of what's right and proper; the correct procedure.

Seems to me, as has been pointed out, that internet retailers have families to feed too; in many cases they provide some wonderful service (scanned specs, e.g.), that brick/mortars will not. Et .

So adjudicating between relative virtue of these retailers seems hopeless.

And as an end-user trying to figure out, much less actually even *do* the moral thing, it's actually quite difficult.

I'm suppose to investigate six ways to Sunday the claims of the IR? I did just tell one IR today that they are in fact, as I understand it at least, breaking the law by selling their lead-non-compliant fixtures to someone in California [not positive it's illegal to sell it but I'm pretty sure that's what the law I actually read the text of this morning, was trying to say] -- they certainly didn't know that. In fact their first response was that the fixture was lead-compliant, but when I pressed for the SP code it came to light that the fixture actually wasn't (as I'd already grown to suspect).

Blah.

As if remodeling, dealing with people who say they will show up and don't, day after day after day after day, were not enough.

What an industry.

Grumpola.

*whew*. What a pretty day we're having .... :)

-soapbox returned to next in line...

Yeah, it does stink that you can't actually know for sure who is an authorized seller. That, I think, hurts these brands more than they realize. I don't know if that sticker in the mom & pop store is for real.

At least with cars there is a legal trail with the VIN.

And for large appliances, you can steel yourself to be sneered at on the phone and call with a product serial number and ask. I don't think faucets have serial numbers do they?

I'm not really understanding your problem. sas95 explained the reason for authorized sales outlets quite well. If you choose to try and find the cheapest price you must also take the time to find out if the warranty will be valid - if you care about the warranty.

You told someone they were doing something illegal even though you didn't know they were? Sheesh.

per stinkingrose: You told someone they were doing something illegal even though you didn't know they were? Sheesh.

I don't think it's easy to know the precise law. I've been told many different things in terms of what is permissible and who is responsible. It is/isn't il/legal to sell non-compliant faucets; it is/isn't il/legal to use non-complaint faucets; it's the maufacturers', no the salesman's, no the inspectors', no the homeowners' responsibility. On and on ... as I said, I even read the actual law; I was curious. To the best of my non-lawyers' ability to figure it out, I think they are behaving outside of the law when they sell to a known California (or Vermont) client. I could be wrong; I am not a lawyer. But they didn't even know about the law. In fact, they claimed at first the faucet was compliant ('tell the lady what she wants to hear....'). so I'm not sure what the "geesh" is for, but to my mind, I'm doing them a favor priming them to the possibility that they could be in a lot of trouble. They need to investigate the details, which I have little doubt they will not do. But I tried to pass along the fruits of my investigation (I wanted to know for my own sake of course).

Moreover I did 'you' (that is, other random potential clients) a favor by trying to alert them to the potential problem so more people will not fall afoul of the law in the future. Far more importantly, so more people will not inadvertently introduce more lead into their families' drinking water than they may wish for.

Sheesh.

I don't see why it's a foregone conclusion that buying something online requires that I do a background investigation of the veracity of the company, not to mention the industry-wide practice of pulling-wool-over-eyes. I have a problem with untruthfulness and deniability. I do, for better or worse, assume good intent; discovering the wide-spread abuse of this assumption is a problem. That's my problem.

I bought some cabinet pulls off eBay. A number of times I asked the seller who makes them. Silence.

When I sent in my eBay review I gave a less than full-star review, saying that the product was fine, the shipping was fine, the seller had not answered my questions.

Seller was upset. I sent seller a copy of one of the queries with request for mfgr and haven't heard any more. Still hasn't told me who the mfgr is. So...is this a comparable example?

Somebody made the pulls and I don't think it was penguins.

Thank you Aliris... honestly, it never occurred to me that the websites I use to buy things may not be authorized by the manufacturer. Good thing I read this, because very soon I'll be buying a few things that I'd like warranties on.

An Authorized Dealer is usually indicated by "Authorized Dealer" on the website. You can also do a search for Authorized Dealers on most company websites because they have a Dealer's Search, so you can find the product near you or at an online authorized dealer.

I have had the experience where catalogs will not reveal the manufacturer of a piece of furniture or of a fabric, because they don't want you to go to Highpoint and buy it cheaper. I did ask about a particular piece of furniture and where it was made because I wanted to know something about the quality of the piece, and said I probably would not buy it without more information. I was told, politely, that that was a decision I was welcome to make. I didn't buy it, but nor was I offended, they have a policy that works for them, and I have one that works for me, they just didn't happen to mesh well on that occasion.

My general feeling is that if I am buying from a non-authorized dealer to save a few bucks maybe the company deserves to save a few bucks on me by not honoring the warranty. Sometimes I take that chance, sometimes I don't.

I ran into a situation where a legitimate IR reseller sells a product for which they are not an authorized dealer but they tell you up front and they provide their own warranty. I spoke to them about how this works and what they told me is that they get the product from authorized dealers who can buy larger quantities and hence get a cheaper wholesale price which enables the "unauthorized" dealer to sell them cheaper - the authorized dealer is required to sell the product at UMRP. The manufacturer is aware of this but looks the other way - they're selling more product and they don't have to provide a warranty on the unauthorized sales, and they maintain the illusion that their product is price fixed. The authorized dealer gets a cheaper wholesale price and thus makes more profit on the units that he sells. The risk to the consumer is whether you trust the "unauthorized" dealer's warranty.

Palimpsest - I guess that's the thing, "usually indicated" is just not enough. The strange thing is that many, many IR said they were 'authorized retailers' of this manufacturer, but when directed to the place on their website where they note who is, none of them is. When asked, the IR say they are authorized. It's not true and they're saying otherwise. So relying on what is "usually indicated" just won't work in this instance at least.

I remember soon after joining GW reading a post where someone warned of this, of IR claiming to be authorized retailers and then turning to the manufacturer and being soundly disabused of this notion, statements, written or otherwise, to the contrary having zero significance. At the time I thought 'well, so what, just ask more carefully...?'. But I'm beginning to think you *can't*, yet still you lose.

Quite truthfully -- and I know most everyone here completely doesn't understand why this fascinates me -- but I'm mostly interested not so much in protecting myself against potential future problems with the product; I'm interested in the meaning of all this rococco selling process; the favored and the out-of-favor: and *why*.

Weissman -- thank you. That goes a really long way toward some glimpse of this 'why'-thing. The occasional package "falling off" the forklift I can sort of understand, but it doesn't explain the vast volume of this quasi-authorized selling. What just mystifies me is this explicit system that's supposedly set up, only to be explicitly undermined necessarily by the very ones who set it up. The complicated curlicues just confuse me: why? Seems if it's your product, and you are permitted to and chose to control who sells it, then do so. What's with the "looking the other way"? Why do that and who loses; who gains? I really feel twiddled with; I can't even tell if, when or how I am doing some wrong thing. I appreciate this peep, Weismman. At last some beginnings of an explanation...

Probably doesn't help much for this particular problem regardless, but the CA law as I understand it just applies to the faucets being installed---they must be lead-free to be code compliant---rather than to the faucets sold. I was really frustrated that none of our local stores that sold the brand we wanted had the lead-free versions, and actually had to order it online in the end (albeit from a CA online company).

The stupidest part? The inspector never, ever asked. *sigh* I guess I shouldn't complain---he also didn't ask whether our lights were T24 compliant, either (they might be, depending on your reading of the code...so I was holding my breath on that one!)

Brass is made mostly of two metals, and it also contains several other metals in small quantity. Lead is the first to leach out. Lead is bad for health.

About this unhealthy heavy metal "lead" and leaching, at least one faucet manufacturer states the situation as bluntly and honestly as possible.

Here is what I found in the User Manual of one faucet:

"Standards
Contains no more than 0.25% weighted average lead content
Complies with California Proposition 65 and with the Federal Safe Drinking Water Act
"

and

"Faucets made of leaded brass alloys may contribute small amounts of lead to water that is allowed to stand in contact with the brass. The amount of lead contributed by any faucet is highest when the faucet is new. The following steps may reduce potential exposure to lead from faucets and other parts of the plumbing system:
Always run the water for a few seconds prior to use for drinking or cooking.
Use only cold water for drinking or cooking.
If you are concerned about lead in your water, have your water tested by a certified laboratory in your area.
" (source: Moen)

Drinking lead is bad for you.

The faucet IS a lead poisoning agent.

The pipe or solder may also do this.

--

I think the faucet industry needs an overhaul.

For one thing, many companies large and small use words in vague ways, and manage to hide instead of explain most of the significant information I would like to have.

They foster, enable, and provide a gray market.

Few faucet manufacturers state that their faucets meet any standards at all
E.g.
Third party certified to meet CSA B125.1, ASME A112.18.1, ICC A117.1
and all applicable requirements referenced therein including NSF61/9
(again from Moen)

This is off-topic, but I am always surprised to hear the level of inspection (or the potential for) in various locations. I have had an inspector look at a kitchen exactly once: in a house that had been gutted and thus needed a certificate of occupancy. In a solely kitchen remodel, never.

In fact, in a house where we added a fireplace, the inspector got out of the car, looked up at the new flue and cap and said "That the fireplace?", signed a form and left.

I think around here its more a matter of whose property taxes they can reassess.

In the home building forum they have been discussing plumbing markups, from internet retailers to hard stores.

Here is a link that might be useful: Plumbing markup question

"Brass is made mostly of two metals, and it also contains several other metals in small quantity. "

Baras is made of two metals, copper and zinc, period.

Everything else is a contaminant.

Lead is added to brass to allow for easier and faster machining (especially in high speed production).
Brass actually machines very easily, but the manufacturers want to run the machines faster so in goes some lead.

It acts as a lubricant during metal cutting, and under the wrong condition can be leached from the brass into potable water.

It makes you wonder how anyone survived with an IQ higher than a turnip with all the lead exposure we are now restricting.

Funny this issue is being discussed... Be careful with your cabinet purchases also. I am an authorized dealer for Dynasty/Omega. There is a cabinet showroom in the same town as I am in who also sells Dynasty. They are NOT an authorized dealer. I know as I am a former employee, that Dynasty took the account from this particular dealer due to non-payment. I left the company because of ethics issues I had with them and took another job. A year later, I opened my own showroom and knowing there was no Dynasty dealer in my area, I was approved for the line. The reps assured me that the other dealer would never be permitted to sell the line again.

Lo and behold that was not true. The dealer was using another dealer's acct number and ordering the cabinets. The other dealer does not satisfy the requirements for a dealership (he has closed his showroom).

The bottom line is, that despite my kicking, screaming, letter writing etc... I have been unable to stop the other guy from selling the cabinets. It is really crazy. I have won one battle. He can not advertise the line in any way. Sometimes he tries (like a billboard on a major highway), but it always seems to be rectified immediately (once I notice).

As far as the warranty. Honestly, I have yet to get a straight answer from Dynasty. I do know that a past customer went into that showroom recently and was physically escorted to the door when they asked for a replacement drawer front which had cracked. So, they came to me. That indicates to me that the unauthorized dealer is unable to take care of any warranty issues, but I have yet to confirm that.

Buyer Beware! Ask whoever you buy cabinets from whether or not they are authorized. It is easy enough to check - just go to the manufacturer's website.

Kitellie - this is so interesting.

I pursued this today with home perfect. I was told that they were not authorized, but they order from "their warehouse" and their warehouse is. They will not reveal the name of their warehouse. When asked how I could therefore verify in advance their authorization-ness, they told me, irrelevently, they had "never had a warranty issue in 11 years". When I inquired how to satisfy the company's requirement of receipt from "authorized retailer" I was told the "pick sheet" from the warehouse, or whatever it was called, would be sufficient.

Wow.

What a wacky world.

Definitely - I think - these manufacturers are messing with everyone, client and retailers alike.

I really appreciate hearing your persepctive and experience as a retailer, K.

brickeye: what makes you think anyone has?

palimpsest: in my city (LA(+), the degree of severity of inspection is pretty random. We've had 6 inspectors so far. One decided the height was off (it was) by 6 inches (it wasn't) so we ended up spending 1K, more-or-less for what amounted to a 1.5" overage. It was the draftsman's fault and he is definitely a major-league problem. Nevertheless, a subsequent inspector expressed astonishment at the call. But that inspector was randomly stinky about other stuff. At the same time, we were passed on flat-out frankly dangerous electrical stuff. As a clueless, at-the-time out-of-town homeowner, I would rather have appreciated having that electrical insanity called out.

oh well.