I'm beginning to wonder if ya'll have found modern dentist. Yeah, I recall 40 plus years ago when the experience was tolerable but not all that pleasant...but sheesh, no terrifying men nor tools that should send children screaming in fear or pain. Maybe you all need to look into a more efficient dentist with more advancement in procedures.

"I think physical punishment and humiliation is wrong, you disagree. "

That statement is untrue. I absolutely do not think purposeful humiliation is an effective form of discipline. I also do not believe physical (that causes pain) punishment is necessary 99% of the time.

And I am not being naive. I understand a medically necessary life-saving procedure, and were your daughter's trips to the dentist in that category of emergency I would support holding her down and letting her scream to save her life.

But somehow I don't think that was what was happening.

In other words, I think you just told us that you let your daughter scream in fright/pain at the dentists office. And it sounds like you did it regularly.

I would never do this. I don't know anyone who would do this.

However; my daughter did have a medically necessary painful situation when she was young and I held her little legs and cried with her while the doctor performed what was necessary. (I've also cried with her when she got her shots) It was horrible.

I cannot imagine what kind of abusive parent would take their child to a place where their body would be touched without their permission and they would be so frightened/in so much pain that they are SCREAMING. And to know their parent is allowing this to happen, is not protecting them, is not saving them...

Well. Compared to me saying to my daughter "We've discussed this, you didn't listen, we've tried talking, and time outs and ___________, you know that what happens next is you're going to get a spanking" and then whacking her bottom a couple of times, and then reiterating why her behaviors were not acceptable...

One is disciplining. The child understands what is happening and why. I always tell her I love her, but that her behavior is unacceptable. We always have hugs, and kisses, and loves. She KNOWS she is loved. She KNOWS there will be consequences.

The other is torture. They are alone, they are screaming, they are frightened, they are in pain.

I can't take it anymore...almost every argument/discussion above relates to physical abuse. Did NOBODY else see the extreme verbal abuse that was heaped on this child? Not the basic "you were bad"....I'm talking about when she said, (and I'm paraphrasing because I just couldn't watch it again), "If you want to live in MY HOUSE....blah blah blah...MY HOUSE...blah blah blah...." This child is not even considered a member of the family, and it is made clear to him every time he is "bad", and likely even when he isn't. MY HOUSE MY HOUSE MY HOUSE. In addition to the physical abuse, this child is being told he is a guest living in that b*tch's house, who'd better toe the line, or he's getting tortured or eventually getting the boot.

And yes, it IS physical abuse. It was not a small amount of hot sauce, and she made him hold it while she berates him, then it's not enough for her, so she throws him in a cold shower. I'm not against a swat on the butt when needed, but do you do the swat and then follow it up with another type of physical punishment? I don't know any parent that does that. And as someone else noted, this is a regular thing. The hot sauce appears stored in the bathroom, and he knew exactly what was going to happen with the sauce and the shower. The kid might have some severe issues, but what is on that video is not how you help or deal with a child that might have such problems. It is sick and abusive, and I suspect she enjoys it on some level.

Exactly, weed30. Reading the 'debate' back and forth, all I can think was : what if YOUR husband, BF, SO whatever the case may be, came home and found you had lied about how much you said you spent? Over browned his garlic bread for dinner?

This person then grabs the bottle of hot sauce, pours it down your throat and tosses you into a cold shower. EVERYONE here would would screaming 'your DH is an abusive $^&$^#, leave him, divorce him blah blah blah.

But this is just your kid, right. Yours to do and discipline as you see fit?

My DD never screamed of pain, I never said I let her scream of pain, in fact I never said she screamed of pain, i never said she was alone???? Silvers you are grasping here at straws trying to defend yourself, what for? i don't know you in real life so whatever you do with your kid is on you. By equating medical procedures with punishment you are trying to justify yourself.

DD was always calmed down and explained what's going to happen, then she peacefully followed with whatever and procesure was adjusted, she never scramed of pain, who nowadays screams of pain in dental office, with anesthesia, and whatever other pain medicine is administered? Do they do medical procedures without killing the pain first???Where? I said "in dental office", I never said of pain, i also never said "screamed for any prolonged period of time", i also never said "she was alone in any office' or G_d forbid someone touched her "without my permission", she actually sat on my (or daddy's lap) lap and calmed down. She screamed when she saw a dentis in his office, however she was calmed down by mommy or daddy or both (we actually sometimes went together to medical procedures even after divorce) and explained what was going to happen and how there will eb no pian, and she was calmed down and of course there was no pain, and she was happy as a clam in few minutes.

Quite different from "and now your loving mommy is going to peacefully administer spanking and hot sauce because you were bad: open your mouth and bend over". It is naive not to see the difference.

And you are trying to justify abuse all the time: "he was nto screaming of pain, just that the water was cold", "hot sauce isn't that bad, he isn't even screaming", "here are the Internet sources showing how spanking is good", "here statistics showing how spanking is good", "if mommy is not angry and explains how she si going to punsh kids, then it is OK', "she has 6 kids" etc

If you just being defensive because you take things personally and like to argue, then i don't care but if you trully believe what you say then i am concerned for children in your life. But again i do not know you in real life, so it is on you.

Think this abuse will effect all the other children in the house too..Seeing this must terrify them and they are probably living in fear of breaking the rules everyday of their lives too. And sometimes seeing a loved brother or sister being abused, may make them feel as bad as being abused themselves....Has to be damaging them too...

exactly
like weed said "abusive and sick". And exactly, not only it is physical abuse but it is verbal on top of it! So is verbal abuse OK? I don't think so.

and I agree with justmetoo I would like to see how abusive women would like their husbands spanking them, shoving hot sauce in their mouth and throwing them in a cold shower because they were "bad". Unless someone is into S and M stuff (maybe abusive parenst are?), they wouldn't like it and probably press charges yet it is OK to do it to minor children. You can raise your kids the way you see fit.... Really? At least in case of absuive husband a woman can leave, a kid can't.

Yes I noticed that she appeared enjoying torturing her kid. I do think that abusive parents enjoy punishing because it gives them sense of control and power that they might lack in other areas of their life.

I was listening on the radio this morning that my state has increased number of abuse and neglect of children, I would think because people, who are already disturbed and having anger issues, are having such hard time with lack of control over their own lives: high unemployment, houses don't sell, foreclosure etc that they get that control back by letting steam out on their own chidlren.

I agree with dotz, other kids might be well-behaved because they see what's hapening to their brother. Yes, it must be horrible to observe someone being abused, especially your own sibling. I am heratbrtoken to hear of kids being abused and I don't even know them!

Unfortunatelly it is not that uncommon and too much of this hapens behind closed doors and we will never know about.

There was a "baby in the closet" here a number of years ago;
the mother had given birth & kept the little girl at *her* mother's insistance & then had fallen off the radar.

A neighbor called the police, who found the malnourished child in a filthy closet.

At first, they thought she was about three years old
she was seven.

She never had seen the sun, & she thought the grass was "biting" her bare feet when they led her to the car.

The other, older children led "normal" lives, were fed at the table, were adequately clothed, went to school, & never mentioned "the girl" (no one in the family called her by an actual name).

The other children were removed from the house & placed in foster care & given counselling.

The explanation was that the other children in a home where one child was scapegoated & abused were told that the victim was "bad", that s/he deserved it, etc.

In the minds of the children, this means that they either believe that the other child is bad & deserves the horrific abuse, or they believe that they might get the same treatment.

The effect is that the other children often grow up to be very judgmental & punishing & often become abusers themselves.

"The effect is that the other children often grow up to be very judgmental & punishing & often become abusers themselves."

Yes, watching abuse would do a lot of damage to a child. Some would become abusers themselves or grow up uneahlthy otherwise. I also have hard time imagining having any healthy relationship with such a parent. I would think emotionally and physically abused chidlren (or the ones that observe abuse of their siblings) don't want to do much with their parents when they grow up. Although sometimes abused kids are attached to their abusers. Sad, just sad.

It is absolutely ridiculous to equate children and spouses in scenarios of punishments. If I came onto this site and said that DH had listed chores which I had to do, and I had neglected to clean the house, so I was being punished by DH by not being allowed to talk to friends or leave the house outside of work for a week, I doubt that there is a person here who would not tell me to leave him. But nobody is saying it is abuse for a child to be grounded for not doing his chores. What's the difference?

And no one has answered my hypothetical questions above - Is it abuse to punish a child by having them weed the garden in hot weather? Or to attend a church which requires them to kneel while saying penance?

Or can you not answer those because they are too vague - it's abuse if a child is out in the sun in 110 degree heat with high humidity, but not if it's 90 and dry? It's not abuse if a child kneels for three minutes saying prayers but not for three hours? But you can spout off that any spanking, a swat on the behind or a beating with a two by four, is abuse - or that a "cold" shower, whether cold meant ice-cold with no hot water, or 80 degrees, was physical assault and parents are criminals - and anyone who says Whoa, step back and don't rush to judgment without knowing all of the facts, is also a child abuser.

Disgusting.

Well, you can think it's as 'ridiculous' as you please. I'm sure you're aware that it is not uncommon for repeative abuse cycles.

Doesn't feel good when someone twists it on you does it PO1?

I'm not grasping at straws to defend myself, nor am I equating medical procedures with punishment. I was simply holding up a mirror.

People are saying this little boy is screaming in pain. I disagree. I am not trying to justify abuse. Please show me where I said it was OK that she did what she did, or STOP accusing me. It's getting old.

I am saying this mother needs help. I do not think she belongs in jail. I do not think that is the best outcome for her children.

The hot sauce could not have been that hot, or it would have come out of his mouth, voluntarily or involuntarily. That's my opinion and my experience with children who get something in their mouth that is hot or that they don't like. It comes out.

"i don't know you in real life so whatever you do with your kid is on you. "

With due respect PO1 even if you did know me in real life whatever I do with my child is "on me". Here's the thing. You're not going to help me feed her, clothe her, house her, educate her, love her or discipline her. I am. I had her on purpose, deliberately and I intend to raise her to the best of my ability.

That's kind of how it works. I do what I think is best and the results are my responsibility (for the most part... nature vs nurture and all that). I take my job very seriously. Just because you disagree with my methods does not mean your parenting style is more effective or better. It's just different, therefore your faux concern and libelous comments are grating and inappropriate.

I do believe what I am saying and I do stand by my assertion that there can be non abusive spanking. There also can be non abusive yelling and non abusive discipline.

And Mattie, yours is the voice of reason. Thank you.

"Reading the 'debate' back and forth, all I can think was : what if YOUR husband, BF, SO whatever the case may be, came home and found you had lied about how much you said you spent? Over browned his garlic bread for dinner?

This person then grabs the bottle of hot sauce, pours it down your throat and tosses you into a cold shower. EVERYONE here would would screaming 'your DH is an abusive $^&$^#, leave him, divorce him blah blah blah.

But this is just your kid, right. Yours to do and discipline as you see fit?"

And what if MY DH came home and made meat loaf for dinner, and I didn't like it, and asked to have mac and cheese instead? And DH not only said no, but then would not allow me to eat dessert afterward for not finishing my meal!

Or if I slammed the screen door when I came inside and DH made me go back out and shut it properly ten times in a row?

Or for that matter, if DH was forcing me to go to college, and I didn't want to - but when I tried to drop out DH started driving me there and walking me inside?!

With the exceptions of prison, the military and possibly organized crime, adults do not punish other adults. EVER. So to compare punishing a child to doing the same thing to an adult spouse is ridiculous. Yes, I understand the cycle of abuse - but please tell me one actual punishment (not a talking-to) that a responsible, non-abusive parent might use, that would also be acceptable for one spouse to do to another.

OMG. Your husband doesn't let you have dessert either??

My husband didn't take his laundry out to the laundry room yesterday as I asked him to so I gave his clothes away to another guy who would appreciate them.

Then I was taking a really long shower and he reminded me that he's told me not to waste water and since I haven't been listening he brought a timer into the bathroom that would ring when my allotted time was up. If my hair is soapy, too bad, he said... I should have managed my time better and I'll know better next time. Then he did let me rinse it out and I was grateful... I sure learned my lesson!

After my shower I have to admit he was micromanaging how I was cutting onions for dinner and when I told him "you're not the boss of me" he put me in the corner for 32 minutes (one minute for every year is the standard in our house).

I think my time out was also because I had been acting out all day and he was tired. The real kicker came when I went grocery shopping after work yesterday and didn't tell him that I was making a stop before coming home. That's a pretty big offense in our household so I'm grounded for the next few days and can't go to the gym with my friends tomorrow. They understand though, because the same thing happens to them.

Glad you ladies think it is funny. I said nothing about being 'responisble' nor 'acceptable'. You seem to be having a problem looking over your own backyard fences and seeing into the real lifes of very different households. Certain adults do punish adults. Physical and psychological abuse knows no boundaries (adult/child) when it comes to the minds of affected persons.

Seriously. Maybe the two of you would like to visit abuse centers and listen to real life stories of both the abused and the abusers.

Justme, I am quite aware there is spousal abuse and child abuse. I am aware that some child abusers are also spouse abusers and vice versa. I have been to women & children shelters. I have also gone to college and taken women's studies courses. I have had friends in abusive relationships and I have known children in abusive households.

I don't find ABUSE amusing, I find the postulations about abuse amusing and I highlighted the absurdity in the arguments posted above as a result.

I would go so far as to say that MOST of the time children are attached to their (parental) abusers and the separation can be as damaging as the abuse was. That's why I advocate re-training/assistance for parents rather than jail time/foster families except in extreme cases.

My mother used to tell me all the time that if I wanted to live in her house I had to abide by her rules. I think this is common for parents to say. The only reason this is rubbing people wrong is because the child is adopted.

Mattie has a genuine point. There is no situation in which "punishing" or "disciplining" a child would be applicable to an adult so the argument is ridiculous. The main points here, as far as I can tell are as follows:

1. The mother felt "out of control" (her words) and had her child tape her disciplining another child to send to Dr. Phil.

2. Dr. Phil either didn't think it was abusive or just didn't care because he presumably had the tape for a while and it was viewed by many people before it was compiled with the rest for his show.

3. People called in to report the abuse. An investigation was launched. The home was inspected by the US government officials and the Russian officials and the children were not found to be in danger and were not removed from the home.

4. She was brought up on child abuse charges and plead not guilty.

The question here is of guilt. Did her parenting leave lasting psychological or mental scars on this child?

My answer? I don't know. I don't have enough evidence. I don't think she was making good choices, I think she needs parenting classes, I think adopting from another country, especially an older child can be a very intense experience and she needs support to raise this child.

I strongly feel the best outcome would be for her to receive help and for the family to be supported. This is not a parent with substance abuse issues. This is not an issue of neglect. This is an issue of being at wits end and making bad choices.

I will find humor in whatever the hell I choose to. Perhaps I may remind you that my dear SS8 has been "punished" by being screamed at, by being locked in a closet, by being not fed, by being called stupid, by being called a brat, by being threatened to be abandoned, by being physically struck - and there's nothing that we can do about it until court, and nothing we can do to unring that bell. None of that was a pre-defined punishment, all of it was in anger and without warning. If you recall, one time SS was spanked for not hugging his mother.

We do not even raise our voices towards SS, let alone raise a hand to him, because of his anxiety. Our lives revolve around his counselor's appointments, his medical appointments, attorney's visits, court appointments, spending happy time with him and working to pay the bills for all of these.

But according to many of the posters, apparently we should just write him off now, because too much damage has been done to him already...

"he ll wind up taking out his childhood trauma beating up someone half to death in an alley some where, someday...

There is a very direct link between abusive parenting and either criminal future or serious emotional disturbance. Very direct correlation...

its a perfect way to raise a violent bully...

Of Course every abused child wont abuse..Odds are high they will...

Of course theoretically some abused people could grow emotionally healthy but would you want to experiement with that? I don't."

HOW DARE YOU presume to sit back and casually pass sentence upon my eight year old step-son, and just blithely say that odds are that he'll be a criminal, emotionally disturbed, an abuser himself? How dare you presume anything whatsoever about DH's or my (step)parenting? How dare you assume anything about my familiarity with abuse, or how seriously I take what I consider to be abuse?

So while you all sit and pat yourselves on the backs congratulating yourselves for the strong stand that you took, by insulting posters on the internet for disagreeing with what you have deemed to be "child abuse", I will finish work so that I can be done when SS gets home, so that I can hug him, love him, and hear about his day - because I refuse to believe that he is doomed and that there is no hope for him.

unfortunatelly some adults do punish other adults, spousal abuse is not that uncommon, and unfortunatelly some abusive men believe it is OK to physically punish a woman for her mistakes. So it is incorrect to say that adults don't punish other adults, they sure do.

I don't find abuse funny or something to laugh about, but I'd like to see adult "abuse defenders" spanked, given hot sauce and threwn in a cold shower.

Silvers why would be holding a mirror when I neither punish nor defend abuse, you do though. Why, I don't know, I have nothing to do with it.

Now, children could be taught, explained and examples could be shown. Of course it requires a lot of patience and it is a hard work, it is much easier to just spank them or threw something at them or shove something in their mouth and enjoy their silence.

If a child does not respond to your teaching and explaining and only responds to punishment (and this sentiment was shared here: child does not respond to teaching hense needs to be punished), then either there is something wrong with your parenting or you are being unreasonable or a poor child has deeper issues and it needs to be explored. Continuing punishing them is unacceptable. And it is unacceptable to ignore consequences of such so called "parenting".

"I would go so far as to say that MOST of the time children are attached to their (parental) abusers and the separation can be as damaging as the abuse was."

It is entirelly true that victims become attached to abusers, but it is not good enough reason to keep victims and abusers together. This is a really strange comment.

If someone's child is abused by a father for example, but is attached to him, she should stay with him because of the attachment? and the mother should just say "oh let my baby stay with abuisve daddy, she is very attached and seperation is going to be hard on her". Or children shoudl onyl stay with abusive mother, but shoudl be allowed to leave therir fathers? What about sexual abuse? Where do you draw a line?

And if no one defends a child, then she has no options! As an adult you are estranged from your mother, you have that option. Children do not have that option. They don't choose to leave, they have nowhere to go and they are attached. I don't care what bizzare reasons adults have for mistreating their kids. Somebody has to protect children.

(((Mattie)))

I strongly believe that your dedication to your stepson and your incredible drive to make him feel safe and secure while in your home is enough to establish a good sense of right and wrong and a sense of value and well being in your child.

I have known children of abuse who have grown up to be very wonderful adults and they have all said it is because there was at least one person who genuinely took an interest in them. One person is enough to break through all that horrible stuff. I believe in you and I believe in your son.

Mattie, you are not abusing your SS, his mother does. You and DH do everything possible that he does not have to endure abuse, you tried everything possible through court system to keep SS away from BM or keep it to a minimum. His dad didn't say "oh well, let him be with abusive mommy, it is bad to take kids away from parents". He took his son away.

Both you and DH do a good job to erase horrible parenting on BM's part. And you should be commended for that.

I know neither you nor his dad would abuse SS. SS is not doomed at all because he lives in a healthy environment with his dad and you and you work hard on helping him to become a productive healthy adult. If dad gave up and allow this nighmatre to continue, then it would be entirelly different story. It is not the case though. SS lives with you and his dad. He is one lucky boy.

If my ex was abusive, I would be fighting just like your DH to keep my child safe. You both do a great job.

"We do not even raise our voices towards SS, let alone raise a hand to him"

G_d bless you for these words. SS is raised in love and I know he'll be the best he can be because you choose love.

mattie, I do have strong point of view on the subject because of children who are abused, chidlren like SS. I All I can say is that I wish there was more parents like you and your DH.

There are different degrees of abuse. There is abusive speech.

"you're stupid"

Then there's more abusive speech.

"you're a good for nothing f-ing idiot and I wish you were never born"

There's putting a kid in a cold shower.... and there's making a kid put their hand in a scalding tub of water.

I honestly cannot believe someone would be so insipid as to correlate me saying the parents and children should stay together and get some kind of help instead of being separated for this particular instance (a cold shower and hot sauce) to jumping the tracks and assuming I mean the same for SEXUAL ABUSE FOR CRYING OUT LOUD is just plain ignorant.

For shame.

"I don't find abuse funny or something to laugh about, but I'd like to see adult "abuse defenders" spanked, given hot sauce and threwn in a cold shower."

So you believe that abuse begets more abuse and you believe this hot sauce and cold showers are abusive.

I have said over and over again that I think counselling and assistance to retrain the mother and give her effective skills is my solution to this issue. Despite that, you continue to falsely assert that I support abusive behavior.

Yet what you would have happen is a bit of an eye for an eye, correct? Abuse is wrong, but to correct this abuse we should abuse the abusers?

I rest my case.

Thank you, silversword and ParentOfOne. Apparently I needed a good cry (I wish I were sentenced to a nice long time-out). It seems like every single time I feel like I'm just cracking under the pressure, something happens to encourage me. I had forgotten today was report card day; SS came home and jumped up on me, and showed me his card - high honor roll again. SS asks why we make such a big deal when he's gotten high honor before - we tell him we will always make a big deal out of it, and will be just as proud every time.

Obviously I'm not dealing well with this topic so am going to bow out.... Thanks again.

mattie, I am so happy SS does well in school! Yes I agree topic of child abuse and mistreatment is a tough one, it is not something to treat lightly and it is hard to deal with, and I think people who witnessed/worked with/treated abused children just can't take it lightly. I feel physically sick even thinking someone raises their hand on a child. Let alone my own child/family member. Hugs to you and SS.

And high honors is a big deal. Keep up a good work.

By your logic Mattie and her DH should send SS to live full time with his mother while she is taking parenting classes and hopefully learning to be a better parent.

You just like to argue silvers. How is it eye for an eye if you said hot sauce and spanking are not abusive? If it is OK to spank children and give them hot sauce (and I don't remember if you said if a cold shower is ok) as long as you remain calm and collected, then why couldn't we do it to adults? It should be fine as well.

And if separating abusers and victims is damaging then do you think abusive parents should all get full custody and the other parent should just wash their hands off, or "no-separation" works only for intact families? Would it be OK if your own child was abused by the other parent or you would ask for custody or let your kid stay there abused while ex is taking classes? Or your "no-separation of victims and abusers" rules apply to someone else's children only?

I don't know what world you live in. I guess we have to disagree, you live in some unreal made up universe, or you just argue for the sake of it even when it stopped making any sense.

Has anyone ever read about the Stockholm Syndrome?

Hostages often come to identify with their captors, who seem all-powerful & upon whom the hostages depend for *everything*.

It seems counter-intuitive, but they "bond" with their captors.

a one-sided "bond" to be sure, but it makes it very difficult for hostage negotiators to help them.

Paty Hearst, abused wives, & abused children often develop Stockholm Syndrome;
it's what makes it so difficult for law enforcement to help women whose husbands or boyfriends mistreat them.

Stockholm Syndrome is *not* a "relationship" to be enabled, & any victim of kidnappers, terrorists, or abusive spouses or parents must not be taken at their word when they deny hurt.

sure, sylvia, if there is a bond between abused children and their parents it does not mean we need to preserve it. It is not a healthy bond, nto something needs to be cultivated.

I think that most people would insist on removing their own children from abusive situation, they would fight for custody and wouldn't allow others to abuse their kid, but when it is someone else's child, just a kid on someone's tape, then it is easier to look the other way.

Sylvia, I've heard of Stockholm Syndrome and believe it to be very real.

PO1, why the heck would I say a child should move in with an abusive person full time when they have another birth parent to live with whom they already live with most of the time anyway? Mattie's SS is a completely different situation (and I am only going to bring this up once because she brought him into the conversation). He is truly being abused. He is going without food, without clean clothes, being completely neglected. Yes, his mother needs help. No, he should not be with her; not at all right now. He has a solid family.

I think it's you who likes to argue. You fabricate wild statements and attribute them to me; like "no-separation of victims and abusers". I did not say that. Go back and re-read.

You did catch me on one thing though. However did you know I live in an unreal madeup universe?

"I would go so far as to say that MOST of the time children are attached to their (parental) abusers and the separation can be as damaging as the abuse was."
Just a quote...nothing is made up. And then you proceeded to explain why abused chidlren should stay put. Or rather abused children of someone else. Of course children are attached to their abuser, nothing new but hardly a reason to keep them there.

If for example it was your child abused by your ex, you wouldn't advocate her to stay with abuser because she is just so attached to him or it isn't really that bad, dad just needs some help, in a meanwhile let her stay there. You wouldn't watch that tape and analyse how she screams just because water is cold, and how hot sauce is not a big deal because she isn't screaming or spitting it out and spanking is good for kids because that's what they did in old times, and kid just being difficult and dad needs help to cope and how dad is just being so calm when he punishes her. I don't think you would cold heartedly analyze how it is the best for her to stay with dad, you would want to remove her. Yet someone else's child must suck it up. He might have loving aunt or uncle or a friend who would be willing to get involved, you do not know. Yet you insist abused children must stay put. Many crimes could be prevented if people wouldn't look the other way.

For me it does not matter if it is my child, or soemone else's, such nonsense needs to stop and children need to be protected.

I think you just do not understand the issue fully or pretend not to for personal reasons, don't know. It is too bad.

But i think the thread is over. Unfortunatelly it is ntot the only case of child abuse out there.:(

PO1, I consider it an attack when people misrepresent my posts. I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself.

Have you any experience with foster care? If you had, you would understand my statement that separation from biological parents can be as damaging to the child as the abuse. If possible I do wholeheartedly believe children should stay with their parents rather than go into the system.

As to this little boy having an uncle or aunt or friend who is loving and willing to get involved; did you even read the story? He's adopted. From Russia. That indicates he has no "loving" family just waiting in the wings. At this point there are a few options I can see.

1. Mom is tried, convicted, sentenced. This may mean jail time (as some are advocating) or probation.

2. Adopted boys are removed from the home and either put into the American foster system or returned to Russia.

3. The whole family receives counseling and mom receives resources and skills so that she does not resort to such extremes when the child does not respond (to any of the previous tactics she has tried like jumping jacks, no tv, time outs, etc).

In this situation I stand by my statement that the mother is not guilty until charged and from what I can see she is reaching out for help. I think it should be given to her, and the situation monitored. I do not see any good coming from incarcerating this mother and breaking up this family. Not at this point.

I've known kids who truly were abused and who should have been removed from the home and their parents locked up.

But then, I think our prisons are overcrowded and jailing a mother of (5? 6?) would not be cost effective and would not produce the desired results, which is for her to be a capable, good mother to her children. Don't you think it would be better to help her rather than break up the family?

And please don't twist this again to insinuate I'm saying all abused children should stay with their abusers.

"As to this little boy having an uncle or aunt or friend who is loving and willing to get involved; did you even read the story? He's adopted. From Russia. That indicates he has no "loving" family just waiting in the wings."

Do you even read or understand what you write? So I am not a loving aunt of my brother's adopted children? You clearly do not know anything adoption either...Sigh...really, it is pointless. I give up on educating you. Sigh...gotta go

PO1, why are you bringing your brother into the conversation? I'm sure you're a loving aunt. But if there were family abuse issues with your brother and his kids they most likely would not give the children to you right off the bat, even if they were biologically related to you.

The state is not going to give temporary custody of an internationally adopted child to an extended member of the adopted family. The child would most likely be returned to Russia (as he is still considered by his home country to be a Russian citizen even though he was adopted in America) or go into foster care until a proper fit was found.

"If Beagley is found guilty, there is "quite a big chance" that the twins would be sent back to Russia, according to Tony Astakhov, an assistant to Russia's Commissioner of Children's Rights.

A representative from the Russian Consulate in Seattle traveled to Anchorage to visit the Beagleys and monitor the case. Andrey Bondarev said he didn't see any reason to remove the boys from the Beagleys' home.

"From our perspective, there is no need for ejecting them from there," Bondarev said Friday.

"We hope that the court decision will reflect the truth," he said. "We will follow this to the end".

snip

"It's just frustration," Beagley tells McGraw and the audience. "I really, I don't know what to do with him. I really, truly don't, and that's why I wrote to you, that's why I'm willing to sit up here and have an audience look at me and judge me because I need help for this child. I need help for me, but I know I need help for this child."

I think if she is convicted that the Dr. Phil show should have charges brought against them as well. He is a licensed therapist. As he has stated on camera that he believes it is child abuse, why did they sit on the tape for however many weeks/months it took to produce the show? If he really thinks it is child abuse how dare he not call CPS immediately upon receipt of the video? How dare he play judge and jury, as he does here (and let us not dismiss his requirement of her allowing his show's cameras in the house):

"...it is not justifiable to default to what you’re doing, because it is child abuse,” Dr. Phil warns.

Dr. Phil says he is willing to provide psychological, medical and neurological help for Kristoff to get an accurate diagnosis of what’s going on.

“I’m willing to get you some help with your anger, and your lack of control and your lack of insight into your anger and your lack of control, provided you are willing to open your home to these therapists that they can monitor you to the point of putting cameras in that home, if necessary," he tells Jessica.

“Sure. Absolutely,” she responds.

Then he issues a warning to Jessica: “Anything short of that, Child Protective Services is going to get involved, and that child is going to be gone before dark today. Will you agree with those conditions?”

“Yes," she answers.

So, he received the video, made plans to have it on his show, brought the woman out for taping, taped the show stating his professional opinion that it was abusive and then aired the show and during that entire time leading up to the airing no one called CPS??

For just a little insight into what can happen when a mother goes to jail, check out the "falsely accused" section of the Dr. Phil show. I posted a link below. The foster system FAILED this little boy (eight different foster homes in five years, emotionally abused and he was put on Lithium) and he had a DAD and biological relatives who wanted him and were fighting to get him. Once a child is put in the system it can be difficult if not impossible to get them back out.

Here is a link that might be useful: One story

PS....

She was using Tapatio Hot Sauce. If you've ever tried it you'll know it's not particularly hot and is considered a "mild" hot sauce. Not even close to Tabasco.

She was using Tapatio Hot Sauce. If you've ever tried it you'll know it's not particularly hot and is considered a "mild" hot sauce. Not even close to Tabasco.

OMG, thanks for pointing that out! I can rest easy knowing this. Can we please get the message to the child that it's "not really hot"? Surely his less developed tastebuds are betraying him, so he shouldn't mind it at all! It would probably be really good on ice cream!

The screaming that accompanies the mouthful of, c'mon..... practically sugar syrup! is OK too. It's just loud talking, really. Just to make sure he can hear it over his crying. So thoughtful!

I am now certain that the shower isn't really particularly cold, either, and he should be fine with this harmless little adjunct punishment. It's just a reminder to behave! Good Parenting 101!

And someone twice as big as him, who provides his sole support for food and shelter isn't REALLY berating him, just pointing out that continued infractions can land him out on the street. Just a reminder! Yay! Mother of the year!!!

Whew. All of this angst for nothing. As soon as he knows all of this he will realize how wonderful and supportive his life is, and how much his mother adores him.

Wow, that's a lot of sarcasm!

Weed, he didn't scream over the hot sauce. This is what I'm arguing against in this thread. People are passing judgement based on incorrect information.

No one here is saying she did the appropriate thing for the situation. Everyone is saying she needs help and parenting skills.

The question is, should she go to jail? Is this what we do in our country with a parent who doesn't know what to do and asks for help? Her husband thought it was ok as did several members of her family.

I commented on the type of hot sauce because Justmetoo asked: "What degree of 'hot' was the sauce? (I did not watch whole video so if it was clearly shown to be something like mild I missed that part) Does opinions change of amount and time basing opinion on 'heat'? Say chili peppers mild vs habanero?"

Yes, my opinion does change on amount/timing/type of sauce and how 'abusive' the actions were. Were this a very hot sauce the degree of abuse would have gone up. Kind of like if a person yells at their kid or if they are screaming for an hour. There are degrees.

Surely his less developed tastebuds are betraying him Actually, kids have more tastebuds than adults, and they are more sensitive to sweet and bitter.

I realize there are two very distinct types of mothers commenting here.

One type says: She's a horrible parent, she is equal to a mother who would put... "...hot sauce in the eyes of a child who won't stop peeping on his sister... or the rectum of a child who messes his diaper... and she should go to jail where she should be subjected to cold showers and hot sauce in her mouth.

The other type says: Poor parenting skills, woman needs help, let's figure out how to get her the help she needs and make this family work rather than putting her in jail and sending her kids off to foster homes.

I stand my my feeling that if she is sent to jail there should be repercussions for the Dr. Phil show as well. If she should know better, he should know better.

"As soon as he knows all of this he will realize how wonderful and supportive his life is, and how much his mother adores him."

Oh my, weed, really...I missed the post about how hot sauce wasn't really that hot LOL oh, somebody really wrote that, it is just so childish, oh my. I can't believe it. Somebody actually bothered posting that sauce wasn't really hot.

please pass this info to the kid, "Can we please get the message to the child that it's "not really hot"?" and she wasn't really screaming at him, and it wasn't even mouth full of sauce, it is just that his mouth is too small, and she isn't even angry. I agree, weed, that water wasn't really that cold, it could always be colder like if you go on a frozen lake, you know.

Plus he is from Russia, you know it is cold over there (isn't Siberia there like everywhere like you know LOL), so it shouldn't even bother him, they got used to cold over there. and cold showers are good for you anyways. oh my. too silly.

isn't really funny, honestly, just so silly...Just grasping at whatever.

and the price goes to the post: "hot sauce wasn't really hot"

Twist away PO1.... twist away. Your comments show you don't read my posts or attempt to see where I am coming from. You'd rather fan the flames than have a coherent, adult conversation. Instead, you're right up front holding the first stone, aren't you?

Sure I am not without sin, who is? Yet I don't think not being perfect means I should justify child abuse or find more excuses for abusers. My boring sins don't even begin to come close to sins of child abuse or actually any abuse or mistratement of anyone, let alone family member.

If I was abuser myself, then it would probably seem somewhat logical (in a twisted way) to defend other abusers. But my priority is to defend and protect abused child, rather than find more excuses for abusive parents. Even when excuses become chidlish and silly.

Long line of excuses that at first seemed somewhat logical but then became more and more silly. First she isn't angry (OK), then sauce isn't that hot (well OK), then we are not without sin and shouldn't throw stones. What's next? (well i don't even want to know what's next excuse, whatever) It doesn't even come close to adult conversation. Just childish.

Like I said I gave up on explaining, it is all weed's fault, she found priceless post.

I've never defended her. I've never said she was right. And I've never excused her behavior.

What is childish is not responding to questions asked but continuing to repeat the same phrases over and over along with untrue accusations.

My point is, and always has been that this mother needs help. She asked for it, she should get it. I don't think she is a criminal, and I don't think the kids should be removed from the home.

There are plenty of ways to discipline without this type of things.

If the mother has mental issues, yes she should get help;

Hi kkny, haven't seen you here for awhile! Hope everything is well.

"There is a very direct link between abusive parenting and either criminal future or serious emotional disturbance. Very direct correlation."

Correlation DOES NOT equal causation. Just because there is a strong correlation between two factors, it does not mean one thing causes the other. The factor that is importance is an analysis of risk/resilience. Are there other risk factors in this child's life besides harsh punishment from a parent, such as a bad group of friends, genetic influences, bullying at school, etc? On the flip side, what factors are there to give that child resilience? A good social support network, other quality time with parents aside from punishment?

I cannot stand it when people think that because a correlation exists between two factors it means that one causes the other - ESPECIALLY concerning criminal behavior. There are people out there who had a wonderful upbringing and turned out to be sociopaths, and then there are those that grew up in gang ridden neighborhoods and because of resilience factors got themselves out of a bad situation.

As someone who grew up in an area of affluence and has seen the "parents" who think that "parenting" is being your child's best friend, never giving them firm boundaries and not even knowing the definitions of punishment, I think that is far more detrimental to a child than "harsh" punishment. I cannot tell you how many of my peers with parents like that have shown up in our local newspapers Police Blotter for things ranging from DUI to assault.

My mother grew up in an age where it was perfectly acceptable for her father, in response to her not drinking her milk, poured her milk on her head and forced her to go to school without showering, so she smelled like rotten milk for the rest of the day. Did she ever do that to myself or my sister? No. But she also parented. A spanking when we misbehaved as children curbed bad behaviors and didn't do any sort of damage to us - in fact, I would say my sister and I turned out quite well. We were the ones with the good heads on our shoulders and the ones that other parents loved their kids to be friends with. My sister is 25 and successful and I'm starting a graduate program at 20. But I digress. My point is, punishment is on a continuum. Harsh punishment doesn't cause someone to turn out to be a criminal, neither does lax punishment. There are a variety of factors at work that contribute to how people turn out and hot sauce in the mouth or a cold shower, while quite harsh and not fun, may be what this child requires and it doesn't mean his parent is awful and he's going to turn out to be a serial killer

A lot of what I posted above was meant for Mattie. You are a FANTASTIC stepmom, and I truly hope you don't believe any of this s**t that because your SS may have an abusive mother, that he will just turn out a "rotten apple". You and your DH are the prime examples of a resilience factor. You make sure your SS has what he needs in regards to school, clothes, food, and most importantly, LOVE! That little boy knows how much you two love him and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a close social support system is the NUMBER ONE resilience factor for children

Most certainly emotionally or/and psychically abused children can and many will grow into healthy productive adults. Especially children like mattie's SS who are not raised by abusive parent but rather by non-abusive/non-punitive parents and luckily only occasionally visits abusive parent. He currently suffers from anxiety because of his exposure to abuse. No children deserve it. Even if he sometimes has good times with his mother, it does not erase abuse.

Many abused children could and will grow up just fine not because of abuse and punitive style of parenting, but despite that. I personally do not think that parents need to experiment on their children to see if they survive abuse or not.

I think if one thinks it is OK subjecting children to unnecessary pain and suffering, one should refrain from having children. And if they already have them by mistake, they need to refrain from having more.

And it does not have to be either or: abuse or extreme permissiveness. You can be a parent and not be abusive or punitive.

As about area of afluence and police reports, your experiences clearly completely opposite of ours. I raised my DD in a very affluent, one of the most affluent areas in the US. We are not wealthy, but all her friends are. None is in any trouble, has DUI or in any other way troubled. They are all upstanding people and actually just plain nice people and no, they were not raised by punitive/abusive parents. Of course it is not because they are wealthy, i am just surprised about your experiences.

I personally did not have a child to experiment on how much suffering she could endure and still grow up OK. maybe she would, but I think it is a bizarre reason to have children.

PO1 I never said that BECAUSE I grew up in an area of affluence, children have these problems. However, growing up in an area with money can lead to parents who, instead of parenting, just throw money at their children so their children can go out with friends, and do whatever they please instead of actually taking on parenting roles. There are plenty of people who turn out just fine here too.

Again, my point is - punishment is on a continuum and not everyone will agree where the "right" spot is. Do I agree with using hot sauce and cold showers as punishment methods? Absolutely not. I love children and I think that is just cruel. Do I think that spanking - that to me, in 3 swats on the butt TOPS and never with an object is ok? Yes, as long as afterwards the parent and child sit down and discuss what happened and why they were punished. There are people, such as yourself, who will not agree with me. But who are you to say your way is the right way?

I 100% believe that being a parent is the most difficult job on the planet. There are so many factors that can influence how someone parents. It's a whole lot of on the job training, and I'm sure every parent has one or two moments they wish they could take back or change. One slip will not cause a child to be irreparably broken, in fact, neither will several slips. The key is to realize whats going on, where you're going wrong, and trying to change it - like this mom did.

I agree smashley that one slip or even several slips don't necessarily cause a lot of damage, but consistent abuse does.

I am glad you agree that cold showers and hot sauce are just ridiculous "parenting" (or rather punishing because it is not parenting) methods.

Yes there are plenty of parents who just plain cannot say "no" to their children and just spoil them crazy.

And I have heard of style of parenting that i find the most disturbing: spoiling kids rotten showering them with lavish gifts and treating them like they are still incapable toddlers and then spank, give hot sauce and/or otherwise emotionally abuse them the very next day. I think this type of parenting is the most damaging because it raises children confused and conflicted about love. Too often women who were raised this way would choose abusive husbands: they would think it is OK if their husband abuses them one day and then buys unnecessary expensive gifts after it: because that's what mommy used to do. Nuts

Well, she's been found guilty. What I found particularly telling was that producers passed her over for the Dr. Phil show and asked her to tape punishments to see if it was extreme enough to get her on the show. She did... and this is the result.

Dr. Phil should go to jail too. This is ridiculous.

From the link I provide below:

An Alaska woman faces up to a year in jail for pouring hot sauce down the throat of her young son and forcing him into a cold shower in an attempt to land a place on the "Dr. Phil" television show.

A jury in Anchorage convicted Jessica Beagley, 36, on a misdemeanor child abuse charge after viewing a videotape that Beagley had made. In the video, the boy -- one of two 5-year-old twins she and her husband adopted from Russia in 2008 -- is seen first being force-fed hot sauce and then crying loudly in a cold shower.

"There is no reason in the world why someone has to hurt a child to get on a reality show," prosecutor Cynthia Franklin told the jury in her closing argument.

The case has stirred an outcry in Russia, where reports of children suffering abuse after being adopted in the U.S. prompted Russian authorities last year to order a suspension in international adoptions.

That order followed the case of a Tennessee woman who put her 7-year-old adopted son unaccompanied on a flight back to Moscow with a note saying he had "severe psychopathic issues."

Russia's ombudsman for children's rights, Pavel Astakhov, estimated that 17 Russian children have died as a result of domestic violence in the U.S. since 1992.

"It has been quite a revelation to me that children are being shipped out of Russia in the dozens, without any agreements. ... I say that such agreements should be signed not only with the United States, but also with the U.K., France, Germany and other countries," he told Russian newspaper Rossiskaya Gazeta early this year.

The videotape shot at Beagley's direction by her 10-year-old daughter shows Beagley confronting her son over bad behavior and asking him if he knew what the result was going to be. "Hot sauce," he replied.

"Don't you spit at me!" she orders him. Next she is seen forcing him into a cold shower, with the boy's screams audible.

Testimony at trial revealed that Beagley had made the video as an audition tape for a "Mommy Confessions" segment that aired on the "Dr. Phil" show last fall. After previously being passed over for an "Angry Moms" segment in 2009, Beagley was asked by producers to tape actual instances of punishment to determine if she would be included in the new show.

"I think anybody would look at that and say that is absolutely outrageous, it is over the top, it is abusive, it is inefficient, it is -- it is out of control," Dr. Phil McGraw said on the show after portions of the tape are aired.

Her lawyer, William Ingaldson, argued that Beagley had been struggling with the boy's bad behavior for some time, according to the Anchorage Daily News. "The way the law is written ... makes it really difficult for a parent to discipline your kids and not be subject to other people's subjective ideas of what is right or wrong," he told the jury.

Beagley showed no emotion after the verdict was read Tuesday and walked out of the courtroom with her husband, Gary, an Anchorage police officer, without commenting.

Sentencing is set for Monday. Beagley could face up to a year in prison and a $10,000 fine. Authorities have not said whether the boy, one of six children, will be removed from the home.

Here is a link that might be useful: LA Times

I don't know what I think about the verdict. I thought what she did was horrific and abusive. HOWEVER, I think so many parents adopt these children from orphanages and are woefully unprepared for what they're getting into. I also think that some of these children (particularly the older ones) from Eastern European orphanages suffer from RAD (reactive attachment disorder) and are beyond help. They will not bond with ANYONE.

My aunt and uncle adopted their DD (now 11) from China and a couple who was in their group to get the babies/children had to disrupt their own adoption several months later. The preschool girl they adopted was diagnosed with RAD and it's just apparently SO difficult, if not impossible, to treat. It is amazing to think any child could be beyond the reach of parental love but some of these children have been SO traumatized and scarred, they sadly are.

I don't think any one of us can judge this woman for living with a child with severe behavioral issues and going to extremes.

I personally find her *discipline* methods awful, degrading, abusive, and so on. I truly do. BUT I am not sure jail is the answer here. I think she needs help.

I'm not sure what needs to be done with the child in question or her other kids. Should they be removed from the home? I don't know. What is the husband saying? Is he a capable and loving parent?

I just don't see how locking her up for a year is going to change anything.

But I'll be damned if I know what the answer is. It's a sad situation.