kkny, nobody disagrees that he should contribute. How is a SAHM that is in charge of a house full of kids the same as a SAHDGF (stay at home dad's girlfriend) that doesn't have kids or step kids to look after? If you want to resent women that sit around all days on their lazy butts living off someone else, resent my SD's mom, That's what she does...She's a SAHNCP. No job, no kids living with her, hangs our at the beach or bar, and living off first, her mom, now her new BF. and I might add, she doesn't pay a dime in support for her kids, at least your ex pays for his. (even if he does support his GF, which I think you have mentioned, she does have some sort of income) I'm sure she might say that we (DH & I) are 'wealthy' to her standards and we don't 'need' it. But the point is that children deserve to have both parents support them. So yes, your husband should contribute no matter how well you can provide. But, what message is being sent to your daughter that you are going to stick it to him at every turn because you don't like his GF or her lifestyle or something a SM on here writes, or just because you can?

I am that person, over 50, 29 year marriage and NO, it would not occur to me to call EX, or ask for a loan or whatever..Its over and he has no committment to me, nor me to him, the way its supposed to be...And LOL I think I m also referred to as the one who wants all the benefits, not the burdens because we share...In my 3 year marriage, my(so I thought )when I married him, healthy DH had knee surgery, a massive heart attack and one year later a pacemaker installed on an emergency basis...While DH was in critical condition, didnt know if he d live thru the night, High school aged son wanted to go out and pull pranks, It was Halloween after all, so he didnt visit that day..Older son was TICKED because that was the day he was planning on proposing, and DH spoiled that...Sigh..Seven months of recovering (with no income and help or respite from sons)I took over paying CS (its CALLED SHARING)So I know somewhat about burdens...And I know these SSs want the benefits, assets, not liabilties(like sending a card or spending some time with sick dad)or asking if he needed something ...Oldest son got married and almost a year later is not speaking to dad, because dad wouldnt pay for half his wedding (REMEMBER those 7 months of no income????)Still fair to them, regardless of ingnorant uncaring behavior...And I would have traded places with my DH if I could, to watch him go thru this is an agonizing burden..Has been my priveledge to care for him when he needed it...

Don't think that at all kkny. He didn't divorce his daughter. My keyword there kkny was TOYS. And you know what? I think you knew that;)

So Colleen, you think he should only have to pay for necessities? Only children in intact families get Toys?

And Ima, what I think DD is learning is that if you have an affiar with a married man, you will have to pay the consequences. And what I see here is many, not all, SMs who think if mom can support them with a decent level, dad shouuld havent to kick in much.

my god...this thread gives me a headache....

kkny you wrote: enjoy the benefits he provides ??? is there something I am missing?

By benefits do you mean a washer and dryer, dishwasher, vacuum, mop? those benefits? electricity heat computer internet those benefits?

My sons birthday is next week ... I have "no money" of my own to buy him a gift ... do I take it from my benefactor?

Dotz...you're a good woman & I would give you the utmost respect & kindness just for the plain fact that you are good to my Dad. You have a wondeful heart! I think there is a special place in Heaven for angels like you.

Didn't say that either kkny. Perhaps it would be more beneficial for dad and daughter to spend a week or two in a struggling third world country, OR learn how to invest in the stock market, OR set up a trust fund for a promising blind child. Just a thought;)

Well cawfe,

Since you do not have a job and just sit at home all day how dare you even think about using your dh's money to buy presents for YOUR child! That money should go to making sure his exwife lives comfy. Remember she should still hold the vows they made near and dear!! He should have responsibility for her...not you-the dreaded SECOND WIFE! I mean you don't earn any money!!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!Just had to try to be as ridiculous as some others and now I see how good it feels to post this stupidity! They must sit at their computers and chuckle as they make their posts about how their kids should get it all and exh should not be able to buy anything expensive and how their vows are all that matters!

Dotz,

I echo what Misti said.

Thank you Misti!!!! Now for some devilish fun...Children in intact and divorced families should work for their own toys, so that they value the toys and the effort it takes to work should give them pride in themselves..Unless they are too busy with semaphore lessons, fencing and interpretive dddaaahhhnsee claaassss....Even Ivanka Trump works...

oh boy, what's going in here...

Actually my DD works summers. I work full-time. But I doubt anyone we know has a child who saved enough for a car etc.

Thank you too, June..Mom2emall, your post reminded me of something my ex husband said when I was going Christmas shopping...He said ....you re not buying anything for people in YOUR family!!!!!(I guess meaning my nieces and nephews)So I asked him, our son, does he count as YOUR FAMILY, OR MY FAMILY!!! LOLOLOL So, you can see why HE had to go!!! LOLOLOL

My son has a car. His daddy didn't buy it for him, neither did I. He is making payments and if he doesn't, the car goes bye bye. He loses all he's put into it. I'll bet he drives a little more carefully than a kid that is given a car, after all, if he doesn't take care of it, he'll have nothing.

Now granted, it's not a BMW.

I think how carefully a child drives is a functin of a lot of things. I suspect my DD will be extremely careful and neat, but that is based on her general habits. Uses seatbelts without being nagged. Had one friend in bad accident. I also want my DD focusing first on grades, then on extra curricular activities, in short what the colleges look at.

okay kkny, maybe that was too general. He appreciates it and takes care of it better because he's worked to pay for it and if he doesn't maintain it or take care of it, he loses what he's invested. Kids that are given cars may be responsible and all, some are, but it's never the same as when you work and pay for it yourself.

I wasn't necessarily talking about his driving skills.

It may also be that I remember when I was in high school (OK, quite a few years ago), and the children who bought there own cars worked too many hours, and their grades suffered. Not necessarily talking flunking, but just down a notch. I have issues with a student buying his own car. Too big a commitmment, when he/she should be focusing on school.

then maybe it's too big a commitment to drive altogether. better to stick with a car & driver (aka au pair) btw, I didn't have a car in high school, I borrowed my mom's.. mostly 'rich kids' had their own cars and their parent's most likely bought them. My son's didn't get cars until they were over 18. Besides, a child under 18 can't own a car anyways.

and didn't mean to change topic to cars. I think it extends beyond a car. Kids should buy or help buy all their 'toys' or 'extras'. Things that are earned or worked for, are usually more appreciated and cared for.

Why on earth would I rent? So the owners could decide to sell and I would have to move my kids to another school district, possibly as often as every year? So I could throw away money on rent instead of building equity? So I could have even LESS money, after taxes?

The median household income in my area (not just my town) is close to 100K a year, and two graduate degrees is no guarantee that ONE person can earn that much. A family NEEDS 100K a year in order to be able to afford a house, any house, without struggling. It costs a couple of thousand dollars a month to rent a three bedroom apartment, as well.

ima,

As you have probably noticed, a lot of people are still giving me a hard time about the window example. I appreciate the fact that you, and a couple of others, agree that my H (at the time) should have helped with the window, but a fair number of others apparently do not.

I agree with the other nice story... you are a better than me after the first week of them not showing any sympathy for their dad the checks would have stopped.

Well I do have $40 I "earned" last night instead getting take out ... but as kkny says 16 yr olds want expensive toys ... can't get much for $40 .... get I will have to get a paper route or a babysitting job. Or I could do laundry and housekeeping I should make up a resume with all my new found skills my benefactor has enlighted me with.... laundry for 7, dishes for 7, short order cook, long order cook, chauffuer, alarm clock, tutor, day care worker nanny, maid, nursemaid, au pair, mother's helper, all high paying jobs. :)

Because I do not earn a paycheck I have no right to an opinion. But here it is free of charge. :)

If "you" are given ________(insert noun) you have less respect for it than if you "earn" it yourself.

theotherside, thanks for expressing appreciation, but I've lived in CA all my life (which is a very high property value state) and I don't know what community you live in, but when I was with my ex, his income was around $40K and he used my income of $25K to qualify for the house. It was a four bedroom, two bath with an in ground pool. It wasn't luxurious but it was good sized for all six kids we had living with us. I can sympathize with your plight as a struggling single mother, but there are parts of the country that are less expensive to live if things are really bad. I know moving isn't the first choice I'd pick, but if it gives my kids a better life, I'd consider it.

Ima, go poke fun at me again, I realize the rules are that SMs can take shots at moms. It is obviously financially better to no longer have aupair.

Usually kids who have to work a lot don't do as well in school, especially if they attend magnet or any other more rigorous high schools. Plus there is a limit of hours that high school students can legally work. It is around 20 a week, hard to earn enough to buy a car. BTW DD never owned a car, there was no way i could buy one, but she actually doesn't even like to drive. She did work though while in high school but was not earning much, she was focused on academics. She does work now in college, it pays her rent.

I don't know if people appreciate anything more because they pay for it. I wish somebody paid for my graduate school or at least helped. I am up to my ears in loan that I have to pay back probably until I retire. I appreciate my dgree, but don't appreciate it any more than if somebody would help me pay. Bunch of people I know had their spouses paying for their degrees and their attitude towards schooling is the same as mine. I don't see any difference. The only difference I can see is that my wallet is thinner. haha

I have to say I did see a difference in my attitude towards school in college, and friends whose parents were paying their tuition. I went to a private college where the tuition was pretty expensive. I worked my butt off for each class, I knew if I did not do well I was the one who would lose scholarship $. I applied for lots of grants and had to write papers for most of them.

I had a few hour break once a week between classes, so I used that time to go to the cafeteria and eat the lunch I packed and then head to the library to study and work on homework. Friends who had the same break used that time to go to the bar and have a drink with friends, go to the nearby casino and have fun, or just goof off for a few hours.

I attribute my attitude and hard work in college to a few things. Two things I really think made me work hard were that I was paying for my college and working for those scholarships, and also that I already had a child to support and knew I needed the college education to do so.

Finedreams, as far as people whose spouse pays for their college having the same attitude towards college as you I am not suprised. Unless their marriage is different from mine, the money my dh spends affects us both as it comes out of our joint account! So whether he is writing the check or I am writing the check I see the money as coming from the same place.

ima,

At 28% of income, that would mean you could afford a maximum of $1500 a month PITI, which is about what were paying on a mortgage of about $170,000 years and years ago at about the same percentage as my current mortgage. Even at 20% down, that means the house can't cost more than about $212,000, and you can't buy a three bedroom house for that anywhere near here - possibly not anywhere in this entire state.

Moving is not an option. In my state, as in many, you have to get the NCP's permission to move, or the court's. Getting the court's permission just doesn't happen if the NCP is maintaining any kind of contact with the kids, which weekly dinners would be considered.

I have heard of judges letting the CP leave the state with the children if they can show that it would better their lives. My friend moved to another state, about a 7 hour drive from ours, with her 2 kids. The dads (yes she had 2 ex's) tried to fight it, but all her family lived in the other state and it had a cheaper cost of living than ours. She brought up the point that she could afford a house out there and would have family nearby to babysit, instead of daycare. She also would be able to go to college there since her family would be nearby to help her. The judge let her go with the kids.

mom2emall my point is that people whose spouses help to pay for school or people who could afford taking time off work and their spouses helped to pay for school or people who had inheritance or people whose parents pay for their school etc are all better off than someone who is by herself/himself who had to take a loan to pay for school. My point is that i do not appreciate my degree any more than those people who had help from either spouses or parents or like in some cases their workplace paid for a degree.

Mom2emall,

My mother paid for my college, and I appreciated it. I never missed a class and did my work. I dont think her paying for her made a difference, other than I could concentrate on my school work.

Excuses, excuses excuses, But I cant, I dont, I wont...Yatta yatta..Inheritance, parents pay for college, you lucky dogs,.... you poor people with loans, hey at least you got there...Prestigious, magnet parochial blah blah..proper college more blah blah...My kid went to a (Free magnet,then parochial high school , and graduated with high honors .....with a job!!!!! horror of horrors, in a vet clinic, a grocery store and a head shop!!!!And actually bought his own car!!!And then!!!! Was accepted to BU, Brown and DePaul!!!!! With out Tap Dance Lessons and extracurricular on his resume..But what he did have was parents without an elitist attitude and hardworking parents (and grandparents from the Old country) to show him how its done...Without college educated parents ,who encouraged him none the less...We live in a big city, and I have a sister in law that is divorced that cant imagine WHY she has to move from the 500,000 house now....I always have said , if you can afford a Volkswagon, drive a Volkswagon, if you can afford a Cadillac, drive a Cadillac...Why not learn to adapt to your circumstances? Why not light a candle instead of cursing the darkness??????

mom2emall,

I have heard that judges are very rigid about letting CP's move out of my state. My lawyer recounted a story of a CP who wanted to move about 45 minutes away, out of state, and was not allowed to - so she moved to a similar locale, a couple hours away, but still within the state.

I don't have any relatives anywhere else either, except for my children, one of whom lives in a city that is even more expensive than mine.

Dotz,

Kudos to your kids.

I am just saying that working a certain number of hours can be detrimental. And in my DDs case, no need to work during school year.

TOS,

Have you looked into what was said about courts possibly allowing the CP to leave the state if it can be shown that doing so would improve the lives of the children?

There are a lot of places where you can still get a beautiful 3 bedroom, 3 bathroom home in a great neighborhood, great school district, strong job market, etc. for under $250,000. An example of such a place is Kansas City.

From what you have stated, your ex really has you over a barrel in that he isn't paying sufficient support and you are stuck.

You could shake him up a little bit and tell him you can no longer afford to raise your children in a decent lifestyle given the job market and housing market in your area and that you are investigating jobs in Kansas City (or other city) and you would like to move with your children once you receive an offer.

See what he says. He will either come up with more child support or he won't and if he won't, perhaps the court will agree to let you take the children and move.

theotherside, have you ever considered moving and dropping the kids off with your exH? I mean, you can move if he agrees to it, right? If it were me, I'd pack up the kids, stop by exH's house, tell him, 'well, I can't afford to live here anymore, so since I can't take the kids without permission, I'm prepared to leave them with their father. I know you'll take good care of them.' Sure, I know you don't want to give him custody, but do you really think he wants to take custody? I can understand you not wanting to move out of state or move in general, but really... a court would give you permission to leave if he agreed.

AND THANK YOU DOTZ....

I'm not knocking college, but it's not 'necessary' to be a success in life. My dad did go to welding school before I was born. He worked construction putting pipelines under the bay in San Francisco in the late 60's. He opened his own business in the early 70's (construction related). In the 80's, after a recession and bankruptcy, he drove big rig to feed us. Then he went to classes to get his real estate license. He sold real estate for a while until my grandfather passed away and left him the business he has now, the same kind of business he had in the 70's. My dad has been successful at everything he's done. (and before anyone points to his bankruptcy, his customer base was contractors and in the early 80's, most of the contractors went belly up and couldn't pay my dad, so he also went belly up) but he has shown us through hard honest work, you can succeed. He always told us, it doesn't matter if your job is cleaning a toilet, be the best toilet cleaner you can be! Maybe that's why it bothers me when others complain about things they CAN control, if you don't like it, change it. It seems that the way things are done today, it's all about finding someone to blame.... If you are fat, it must be Mc Donald's fault. If you order a hot drink and burn yourself, it must be the fault of the person that gave you the hot drink, if your kids are getting in trouble, it must be their friends' fault, if they aren't doing well in school, it must be a bad school or bad teacher, so on and so on. Doesn't anyone ever take responsibility for their own actions anymore? lol, even when we are late, we'd rather say it's because of traffic than admit we left too late or didn't leave early enough to allow for some traffic delay.

You know, Ima, if I was TOS, I would be tempted to really call his bluff. She could tell him she can no longer afford the kids, the house and the city she lives in on her salary and insufficient child support.

His choices are:

1. More child support
2. Take the kids
3. Give permission for TOS and children to move

I think a big part of her frustration is that her ex has put her in a no- win position financially. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

He's living a great lifestyle, saving lots of money for retirement, etc. and it sounds like he has played games in getting a lower paying job so he can pay less child support, while his new wife subsidizes the life they live.

So why not throw some of this back his way? We already know he can't take the kids. His new wife would never allow it and he knows that it would be the end of his marriage/lifestyle.

So, that leaves him with two choices - more support or let TOS and the children go.

Either way, TOS would win. And though a move and a new job and new schools would be a lot to undertake, it might be the best thing in the world.

I moved from Washington state to Florida. My reasoning was to further my education & better job opportunities. There are guidelines here in Washington state & education & job opportunities are a reason to relocate. I didn't have a problem with it at all. Has anyone else? I know many people who have relocated with their kids & didn't have alot of problems by the judge. Especially if you don't have enough money to live in a certain area. I'm sure a judge would understand someone moving versus someone going homeless. I agree w/ you June

"Sure, I know you don't want to give him custody, but do you really think he wants to take custody? "

Yes, I think he would. While it is true that his wife probably wouldn't, I think pretending that I was willing to give him custody, in addition to being dishonest, would really freak out the kids.

Then there is the issue of changing schools in the middle of high school, and selling a house in a terrible housing market. The market is really, really awful here right now.

I have thought about trying to move somewhere cheaper or where I can get a higher paying job, but the downside seems to outweigh the upside. Six more years and it won't be an issue. Hopefully by then the housing market will have recovered.

oh yes housing market is awful here too. nobody can sell anything. BF wanted to sell his house, it is way too big now when kids are gone but it is impossible to sell even if you lower the price significantly. and my parents gave up on selling and decided to stay in the house as long as they can just because they absolutelly cannot sell for any kind of money. economy is so bad here and foreclosure is i believe is the highest in the country so nobody buys and nobody sells.

i didn't go to college full time. i got my undergraduate taking classes in the evening and working during the day. i did miss on fun college expreinces but i just didn't feel like going full time, i actually wanted to work during the day and take classes at night, it was my choice plus I married while still in college and then both me and X finished college when our kid was already born. my brother however lived at home with our parents and went full time to college working part time at night and was supported by our parents. we equally appreciated our undergraduate degree I, my X and my brother. all of us did well. i just don't see the difference. circumstances were different, that's about it.

as about cars my dad helped me to get a car even when i was already grown up. and i never caused accidents and am a very careful driver. and bunch of people who paid for their own cars get tickets and caused accidents. I believe that this is nothing to do with who paid for what. first of all it is about personality. everybody is different. some people would mess up everything no matter who paid for it. it is also about circumstances. and it is about attitude and priorities.

(This ramble needs no reply. I'm simply musing.)

REALLY?? Your housing markets are DOWN?
Economic climates are so strange.
We have huge bidding wars here over good pieces of property, and even crappy property sells inside of 3 months.
My sister sold her apartment condo last year and got $20000 ~over~ her asking price.

Now that I really think about it, I did hear a piece on CBC the other day about housing value declines in the States though... And how housing value growth has stagnated a bit in some parts of Canada, but other parts are still skyrocketing. I didn't pay too much attention, because economics aren't of much interest to me, but "hmmm".

(This ramble needs no reply. I'm simply musing.)

it depends on s state here ceph. We have the highest unemployment rate and foreclosure rate. Sometimes foreclosure rate fluctuates and we are between number 1-3. But unemployment is still number one, over 7%. Economy is BAD in my state. I am in Michigan. I am in a rather afluent area, our county is the 4th welathiest in the nation-unless it declined recently (no, i am not wealthy, other people in a county are lol), but if I drive like a half an hour either way it is a totally different picture...and houses don't sell no matter in what area. It takes years now to sell any kind of house. and people don't buy anything.

Now we're speaking my language! I actually work in real estate and here the slump is actually getting better. While before we were seeing only the sale of homes $200,000 and under (mostly homes under $150,000), now we're seeing a drastic change and homes that have been sitting on the market for as long as 3 years because they're priced above $200,000 are selling. Our office alone has sold 5 homes priced from between $294,000 and $1,300,000 and our MLS system is showing that others are selling too.

However, across the state large homes are still sitting empty since the boom of 2005 when all of the builders went haywire and built multiple custom homes and then hit a slump. Currently most of those builders have gone bankrupt and had entire subdivisions forclosed on or are on the verge of bankruptcy.

Sorry, had to put my two cents in. It's amazing how things vary so much!

hecalls - I'm in the industry as well and laughed as my "ears" perked up! :-)

I'm waiting on pins and needles right now as a couple are at my house with my agent hopefully writing an offer. 8 months listed . . . market here is horrible.

Ha! I think it's the 'radar'!

Ouch! Eight months? I hope you get a GREAT offer on your house, not just an offer!

theotherside said:

"ima,

At 28% of income, that would mean you could afford a maximum of $1500 a month PITI, which is about what were paying on a mortgage of about $170,000 years and years ago at about the same percentage as my current mortgage. Even at 20% down, that means the house can't cost more than about $212,000, and you can't buy a three bedroom house for that anywhere near here - possibly not anywhere in this entire state."

The house he bought (I wasn't on the loan) was for $89,500.00 and the payment was just under $800.00. That was in 1994 for 4bd, 2ba, but today, it would value at about $185,000. (probably less since he is terrible about home repairs and maintenance) I do kick myself for walking away with nothing (since I helped him qualify, buy it and pay for it while I lived there. He promised to put me onto the title but changed his mind later.

Wow, I haven't seen prices like that where I live since the early to mid-eighties. Even with the housing slump, there is virtually nothing under $250,000 - but a house that would sell for $275,000 today would have sold for close to $350,000 three years ago.

tos, I think we live in the same area. 1-2 bdrm condos go for $250,000 here. You couldn't find a house today in the $200,000's without having to do major repairs and renovations.

It was a great offer, and from the greatest couple. God - such a relief!

I am in one of the only areas still doing okay, but people are scared to buy because of the other areas. And you can't find a even a condo here under $250k unless it's 50 years old and the Brady Bunch just moved out!

we only have cheap houses like this in the city, well you DON'T want to live in the city... Nothing in suburbs is cheap, at the same time nothing sells. My brother bought a 2bdr 1bathroom small and old house close to 300K. they don't even have proper closets. they do have Florida room though. ha

wow, I'm glad I live in the midwest...

For 250K around here you can get a 5 Bedroom/3bathroom 2300+ sqft house easy...

250,000 for a house that needs major repairs and renovations...That is ridiculous!! and I thought the prices in my area were bad. We went house hunting last year and I was floored my some of the people asking for 150,000 for houses that needed MAJOR work and upgrades ...much less 250,000 !!! I am just glad that we decided to wait ... Well, I decided to wait because we couldnt find what I really wanted and you really dont want to just settle for whatever on something like that. I am glad that I did though... with the housing market going down and the number of forclosers and what not I will be able to get a much better deal than I would have then.