Mom2emall,

I would think the teddy bear is appropriate, and there have been a number of discussions that expensive jewelrey for young girls is not a good idea.

When I grew up, my mother encouraged us to be gracious when receiving gifts. What happened to its the thought that counts.

For some kids a teddy bear may be appropriate, but my 12 year old sd is not into teddy bears and cheap Cinderella earrings. She does not even like Cinderella, that is too babyish for her. She is more into Bratz, Hannah Montana, High School Musical, and such. But, I guess if her mom was a bigger part of her life she would know that. And my sd thought it was wierd that her bm waited over a month after her b-day to send her the present! Of course I had the kids call their mom and thank her for the gifts. I just found it humerous when they opened the gifts in front of me and dh and really did not like them.

We do teach the kids to be gracious and thankful. If the gift giver would have been present they would have been kind, but since it was just us they were honest about how they felt.

And the kids know that we still have the pictures because their mom has yet to pay for them (they asked me why the pictures were still here and I am not going to lie for their mother-they knew she ordered them and I did not want them to think that me and dh just did not feel like sending them). The oldest made the comment about she wishes her mom would want their pictures instead of sending them dollar store stuff.

I know it "feels good" on your part to have the self gratification to know that their mom failed in their eyes once again. To be "right" and see that she failed yet again to impress them, or get it right. But be careful about your comments about this woman who is their mother, even "if" she deserves them. Because each letdown is not a victory and validation of how much better you are, or validation that their mom disappointed them yet again, but a very, very painful reminder to the very heart of a child of how little their birth mother knows them, or really cares to know them.
And we should "never- ever" celebrate (even secretly) that which wounds a child.

You wrote: I found it humorous when they opened the gifts in front of me and dh and really did not like them"

"All the kids know that we still have their school pictures because she ordered them, and did not pay for them, so they will stay here until she pays for them." That her own child said that she wishes her mom would want their pictures." How painful that must be for a child.

The tone of your posts seem to gloat at the failings of this mother, even though you are aware of how much it must hurt these children. You win, even if a child loses. I applaud that you are in there day in and day out being a mother to these children, because she is not. And why she ever thinks that is OK, well no one will ever understand, certainly not her children. And I understand that it is human nature and would take a mighty effort to keep comments to ourselves in such a situation, towards such a woman. And yet, it seems, you must. Because the alternative wounds the very heart of children, who do not deserve such a mom. And as hard as it would be to do, it seems that it is so important that you try to pull it off, so that you launch these children into adulthood one day, as healthy as possible mentally, and emotionally. The angst of such pain can really catch up with kids in their teenage/young adult years, when they are trying to make sense of it all, and they experience rejections from friends or boyfriends/girlfriends, etc., on top of it all.

bnicebkind,

I agree with your post. It does sadden me to see them hurt. I guess that inside it is wrong for me to gloat about their mothers failures, but I am only human. I do not gloat on the outside or talk negatively about their mother to them, no matter what my feelings are towards her. I just really dislike their mother for what she has put them all through, and can't stand how she talks to me like I am nothing to the kids and she is everything. So I guess inside it feels good at the times when the kids see how much of a disappointment she is and know they can count on me and dh.

I would honestly wish that she was either a good mother to them and was close to them or that she was completely out of the picture so she would stop hurting them. I do not like to see them in pain.

I know how you feel mom2emall. When my sd puts her mom up on a pedastal it makes me feel like chopped liver, even though I do everything for her (like you with your skids). And when her bm lets her down I feel so bad for her. It is a tough place to be and I can see how you feel some kind of revenge inside when the bm messes up and the kids see her for who she is because its like they are finally seeing you for how you are. As long as your not talking badly about their bm in front of them or to them you are allowed to feel however you want!

Our human spirit wants justice, and when you are in there raising her children, with the day in and day out of "life" with kids and all that entails, and she has in so many ways abandoned them, and has the gall to even pretend that she is this great mother.........I imagine it will take tremendous restraint, and class, to rise above the urge to point out this lie she keeps trying to perpetuate. I imagine her own parents have to bite their tongue when she says some of the things she says.

mom2emall,

I can understand your frustration about what BM does. My daughters BF does very similar stuff, if he even remembers a holiday or her birthday. He will send clothes that was her size a year ago or make up (when she is only 3!)

I don't gloat however, I feel tremendous pain for her as she will realize one day that he does not take the time to think of her as he should and send appropriate gifts (and I'm not even talking of when he sends nothing at all.)

As far as I can see ... (SM vision) She and hubby didn't say to the children ha ha you're mom's a loser .. she came here and secretly gloated how "right" she was the mom's package was useless.

How do you answer a child who says..."I wonder if she accidently sent me my baby sisters presents" (her mom recently has a baby girl).

It's the thought that counts??? the child thought she got the wrong gift!!!

Ignore the remark? Validate it? Tell her directly? If the kids have questions they want answers nothing mom2 and hubby can do about it. Its their mom who put them in the position to ask the questions. Is it up to hubby to answer them or should they call mom and ask her what's up?

I feel bad for my hubby when the ex does really dumb things ... because I am sure he is thinking ... this isn't the woman I used to love, or thought would be a good mother etc. etc.

I agree mom2 ... they need to step up and be mom's or walk away completely atleast the hurt would be a one shot deal instead of repeatedly and in pattern form. I guess I just expect the worse and guess what 9 out of 10 times I am right as to what mom's action/reaction will be. If I can figure it out I am sure her children "who know her best" will figure it out eventually.

Well put, Cawfe.

My impression of mom2emall's post was that she was posting not to "gloat" but to share her frustration as in "see, biomom did it again" - as in letting her DD down.

DD asked "I wonder if she accidently sent me my baby sister's presents". She's 12 now. In just a few years she will realize how completely out-of-touch her biomom was with respect to her. This is very sad.

Thanks cawfe, june, and helpwiththis. I did not say anything negaitve to the kids.....just came on here to talk about it. This forum really helps me to positively deal with frustrations bm places upon my household!

mom2emall said this

"I guess that inside it is wrong for me to gloat about their mothers failures, but I am only human."

I didn't say she gloated to the children. And the quote above was what I was responding to.
Cawfecup wrote:
"I agree mom2 ... they need to step up and be mom's or walk away completely atleast the hurt would be a one shot deal instead of repeatedly and in pattern form. I guess I just expect the worse and guess what 9 out of 10 times I am right as to what mom's action/reaction will be. If I can figure it out I am sure her children "who know her best" will figure it out eventually."

Quite frankly, I think this is silly. I too feel the pain and ache when my Ex does something that will hurt my DD, but to tell them that they need to walk out of their life completely because they are not buying appropriate gifts is...well, completely inappropriate also. I can tell you with FULL assurance that a parent leaving your life completely is not a one shot deal in pain. I can't believe that you even said this. My mother left me because she died, I can't imagine the pain of knowing that my mother left my life completely because she wanted to.

I agree that the BM in this situation is not the best BM or even normal, however your reaction to mom2emall is exaggerated and IMO not helpful to her for dealing with the realities of her situation.

The fact of the matter is she is going to have to deal with BM for the rest of DD's life. Just as I'm going to have to deal with my ex.

I didn't say walk away because she didn't buy the right gift ... but why keep doing things to hurt your children on purpose to make yourself feel good? Stop hurting your children... or be there to pick them up after you hurt them.

Same goes who does your ex think he is fooling by pretending to be a great dad when it suits him? sending a present and being there to see them open it? what makes a better parent?

When my parents died I knew it was final ... I wouldn't have to watch them die again and again and again. I knew they weren't coming back and nothing I did would change that ... guess its different because by the time I was 24 both parents were dead and can't be (insert emotion)________ with them if they are not around.

Of course it is the thought that counts but it is usually obvious when there was no thought involved whatsoever. I think when parent doesn't know what to buy he/she should just give money so kids can buy what they want. Parents who care don't buy toodler's stuff to 12 year old children. BF's X buys tea for their older DD (26). DD doesn't drink tea. I think this is obvious: she is not involved parent.

Nivea, I agree with you but in fairness, I don't think it's about inappropriate gifts. I think it's about the constant disappointment the kids are faced with. Mom doesn't call (or see them very often). Mom doesn't remember birthday's or waits a month to send a gift that is age inappropriate or something her child isn't interested in (meaning she doesn't know enough about her kids to choose something they'd like), a mom that makes empty promises (getting their hopes up and letting them down all the time), etc.

There is no painless solution but I think what is being said is, if mom is going to keep them on an emotional roller coaster (getting their hopes up & letting them down; coming in & going out of their lives; etc.), the kids would be better off if she stepped up & acted like a good mom all the time or stay away so they don't have all the ups & downs. It would certainly not be 'easier' to know that your parent doesn't want to be a part of your life, but in the end, it would be better for the mom's relationship with her child. If she continues to hurt her kids over & over, they may eventually hate her. If she left until she got her life straight, the kids would probably be more likely to give her another chance to prove herself when that happens.

I'm not in support of either way. I don't know the BM or the kids, so I can't offer an opinion of what would be better. All I can say is that my children were abandoned before they were born and their fathers stayed away until they were grown (17-18) and my kid are very cautious about trusting them, but willing to give them a chance to prove they want to be a part of their lives. I'm not so sure they would feel that way if their father's had been flaky and hurt them repeatedly over their entire childhood.

That's just my perspective on it.

nivea,

My point is not that their mom should leave their lives because she does not buy appropriate gifts. My point is that she is so uninvolved in their lives that it hurts them constantly. When she goes a month without calling and the kids try to call her only to find out that her number is no longer in service it hurts them. When they e-mail her and receive no response after they check each day it hurts them. When they don't hear from her in over a month and her next form of contact is a picture of her and her new babies, taken in the hospital after giving birth to yet another baby it hurts them! I think it would be easier on them if she took off and just said she couldn't survive financially out here. Instead she takes off and starts a whole new family, that hurts them worse. So yes, maybe it would be easier on them if she just stopped contact instead of stringing them along with a monthly phone call and an occasional present that reminds them of how much she doesn't know them! Do you think that when they talk to their grandparents and ask for their moms new #, since they have not talked to her in weeks and can't get a hold of her, and then all of a sudden their mom calls an hour later they don't realize that their mother had to be told to call them?? Their mom is extremely selfish and hurts them over and over again. Then she has the nerve to call them "her kids" and lie and tell them she e-mails them each day before bed and that she has called and left messages!! So its ok that she fills their heads with lies and makes them question who is being truthful? And then we have to see the looks on their faces when we say there have been no messages or e-mails. How are they supposed to feel that their mom lies to them? We are not going to cover for her and say that we did get messages for them. So I do think that she should decide if she wants to be a mom or not. If she does then she needs to call them every few days and maybe come visit them! How the heck can you see your kids once a year and call yourself a mother? Honestly?

So if I occasionally gloat on the inside about their mothers shortcommings (which there are tons of) then that is a heck of a lot worse than what she is doing. My gloating on the inside is not affecting them and I can not change what their mom is doing to them.

I completely understand where cawfe and m2 are coming from... Sometimes you just think... if they were just gone for good they wouldnt continue to hurt these kids over and over again. It always seems like just when you finally have things going good... in swoops the disappointment or the drama or lies or whatever to disrupt whatever sort of peace and contentment that you have built up... On the other hand I will say that although I understand it and probably have thought it before..(I know DH has)... I have seen that a father who walked away completely can hurt just as much and sometimes worse... My cousin spent the better part of his teen years and early adult years making ...we'll just call them really bad decisions... and being very very angry all in the name of my father didnt love me enough to want me... And it was doubly rough because he (the sperm donor of a father) had other kids that lived with him and that he took care of.

It is kind of like picking the best of the worst... there really is no good option.. just circumstances that we try really hard to make the best they can be and to make the best decisions given those circumstances we can... and I sincerely doubt all of our decisions are completely right..but at least we can say we gave it our all and did everything we could.

at least we can say we are their everyday...making it work...

mom2emall,

No, it would not be better. In fact, I'd say that you and I have a very similar situation. The only difference is that I'm BM.

My ex does the exact same things. Yes, it hurts my child. The hurt would be FAR worse if he did nothing at all.

The fact of the matter is that experts agree that it is better for contact than no contact. Virtually any parent that requests visitation will receive it. Even parents that have not been consistent in sending their children gifts, calling or spending time with them or even paying court ordered child support!

Why? Because research has shown that it is better for kids.

mom2emall, I feel for you. But, I think the situation needs to be dealt with realistically. By hoping that BM steps out of the picture will NOT make it any less painful for the children. It will make it less painful for YOU.

"The fact of the matter is that experts agree that it is better for contact than no contact."

Thats not always true, if the contact is always negative then it really isn't better than none at all.

"By hoping that BM steps out of the picture will NOT make it any less painful for the children. It will make it less painful for YOU."

There is a certian amount of 'out of sight out of mind' peace I find in my SS (who are in a similar situation with their BM). When she does the sparatic 'involved' mom activities I notice alot more anguish in them than normal.

"It would certainly not be 'easier' to know that your parent doesn't want to be a part of your life, but in the end, it would be better for the mom's relationship with her child."

That certainly didn't happen in my nephew's case - his father walked away completely before he was old enough to remember him, yet the tremendous pain never went away.

It's odd, I hear of situations such as TOS's nephew, but my reaction was quite the opposite. My biofather left before I was born, reappeared a few times but was like a friend of my mom's, not a dad, and I remember no real pain. Some questions, but otherwise it really didn't effect me. I did gain a wonderful (step) father at age 10 so I know that makes a difference, but before him I did not miss a male presence in my life.

I also often wonder if my sd would be better emotionally if her bm was out of the picture completely. Right now she is on an emotional rollercoaster with her bm because her bm feels "motherly" on occasion and the rest of the time goes on with her life as if my sd did not even exist. My sd has constant turmoil because of it. And it seems just as my sd is relaxing and settling back into her life "poof" bm is back in the picture for another round. As quickly as she appears she is soon to disappear and leave me and dh to pick up the pieces from her broken promises. It is really sad.

I hate to say this about my aunt who is now deceased, but she invested much more time and energy into her love life and her numerous marriages than she ever did in trying to be a mother to her daughter (my cousin).

She never once made a home for her, though she could have. Instead, she dumped my cousin off on my grandmother, who was a wonderful woman and who gave my cousin a very loving home.

Every so often, my aunt would come around and try to assert herself as a mother, and she'd bring presents and talk about having my cousin move in with her and her latest husband. But this never came to be and my cousin had so many disappointments that eventually she wanted nothing to do with her Mom.

This cousin is now in her mid 50's. She moved to a distant city many years ago, after my grandmother died. Her Mother finally grew up and she did try to form a relationship with her daughter. But my cousin wasn't interested. She didn't even go to her Mom's funeral.

I know my aunt really loved her daughter and she really regretted what she'd done. But the scars are deep and last a lifetime. I always thought my cousin could have had a happier life if she could have somehow managed to forgive her mother. But I didn't walk in her shoes.

I don't know which is worse - having a mother like this who flies in and out of her child's life at whim and who never makes good on her promises. It doesn't take Freud to figure out why this cousin won't let anyone get close to her. She was rejected throughout her entire childhood by the person she needed the most.

I think that...

when a parent leaves and doesn't come around at all, the child may feel something is missing and idealize or fantasize about their parent, they hold onto the hope that the parent will come for them and love them. When the parent does come back into the child's life and want a good relationship (even when the child is grown), the child may have some hurt feelings but most want to find out if their 'fantasy' could come true so they might give the parent more of a chance. That is what my son & daughter are going through right now.

when a parent comes into and out of a child's life, keeping them on an emotional roller coaster, making promises and breaking them, getting their hopes up and letting them down, keeping their lives in turmoil and constant disappointment and stress, then the child is living the reality of having a parent they know is hurting them. Whether it's intentional or not, they only know that they are disappointed and hurt. When they are little, they will hold onto that hope, which is why they 'idolize' that mom that doesn't know what grade they are in or never comes to see them. Eventually, as they get older, they will realize that they are not a priority to the parent. If the child has decided that the parent has hurt them too many times before they decide they now want a good relationship with their child, it will be too late. That is probably the case with June's aunt/cousin.

June and Ima,

I agree with your posts. I think that the bm is hurting any chances of a good relationship with her kids by her behavior. The youngest barely even knows her anyways, he has lived with his father and I most of his life, she was only around for the first year or so of his life. I doubt he will think of her as a mother in a few more years since he sees her but once a year and she calls on occasion, he has aunts and grandmas who are a bigger part of his life than that!

Someday their bm will come to the frightening realization that she destroyed her relationship with her kids and missed their childhood because she was too selfish to be a mother to them. I can not imagine being her when she understands what she has truly done, it will be her own hell. If she does ever understand, but with her personality she may keep the "I am a great mom" fairy tale in her head instead instead of dealing with reality.

On a light note related to in and out BM's. When my youngest SS had open house for kindergarden (BM was in an 'in' phase) he introduced us all as and I quote: "this is my Dad (DH) my Mom (Me, the SM) and this is my sometimes weekend Mom (his BM)." I don't think I've ever seen her face get redder...its sad that even a five year old can see through the fairy tale.

Wow! Did she have anything to say after her introduction?

She tried to play it off like he was joking, then proceeded to cause a scene once we left the school, crying and not letting go of him when it was time to leave.

That was when he started kindergarten, since then she hasn't been to one play,conference,sports event nothing of his...and DH always lets her know when they are... I really have no sympathy as she is only a victim of her own choices. If she'd been a 'mother' CPS wouldn't have gotten involved, if she'd attempted to take her visitation this wouldn't have happened etc...so I kinda am happy when she drops off the radar as her doing the poor me at his school only hurt him, and then she was gone again. Its not right to do that to a little guy.

I honestly believe there are some people that should NOT ever have children. My mom was one of them. She was in my life from day one, but she wasn't a good mother. She wasn't as terrible as these ones that show up when they feel like playing mommy for a while, then leave when they get tired of it or find some other interest. But, my parent's argued over my brother because my mom wanted to 'baby' him and had a sexist attitude that us girls were to cook, clean & cater to him because he's a boy. And my Aunt did the same with her son. (It was something my grandma taught the girls in that family, there were six sisters and three brothers so the sisters did everything for the brothers & the girls had no value) Well, my dad wouldn't have it and made my brother do for himself. My aunt didn't make her son ever do a thing for himself. (when he was in high school, she would iron his t-shirts and if the line was crooked, he'd yell at her and she would redo it.) Anyways, thanks to my dads' refusal to allow my mom to do that, my brother grew up and married someone more like my dad, someone that expects him to be able to do things for himself. He went into law enforcement and upon his graduation, my parents stood with him to take a picture together. My mom says to my dad 'we did a great job raising him, didn't we?' My dad held his tongue but it was obvious that it irritated him. If my mom had her way when my brother was growing up, I think he'd have ended up like several of my male cousins, most are in their late 30's & 40's and still live at home with mommy. Only a couple have actually gotten married and been decent providers. My brother is the most successful male in my mom's side of the family.

I know that's off topic but it mom2emall's comment on the "I'm a great mom" fairytale, reminded me of my mom and her funny comment. She will take credit for anything positive. If something negative happens, it's my dad's fault. (Her daughters have had four weddings, she's helped with NONE of them. But, on the wedding day, she is so 'proud'.)

june000

"I know my aunt really loved her daughter"

On what basis do you draw that conclusion??? If she loved her daughter, she would have put her daughter before her own selfish interests and desires, and been there, as a mother.

The horrifying truth may have been that she only cared about herself, and when it suited her, later in life, she sought a relationship. But perhaps she was still the selfish woman she always was.

I think some people "love" others as an extention or reflection of themselves, but can not realize that true love is to put that person's well being before your own. Sadly, not everyone is capable of true love, IMO.

Bnicebkind,

My aunt suffered from very severe depression and she sought psychiatric help many times. She knew something was wrong with her.

Unfortunately the drug Prozac wasn't around when she became a mother. It would have saved everyone a lot of grief.

But when Prozac first came out, she was one of the first to be given a prescription. She was an older woman by that time and the change in her was incredible. She said it gave her life back to her.

Sadly, it couldn't give her daughter back to her.

june0000

"she invested much more time and energy into her love life and various marriages than she ever did in trying to be a mother to her daughter".

Evidently she was fully engaged in life since she was quite capable of "actively" pursuing various men. She even married several of them.

She was a woman making choices. And she "chose" to invest herself, her time and her energy on herself, and the many men in her life. Even at the expense of her own child.

My guess is that even with Prozac she would have made the same choices in her youth. My guess is that at some point later in her life, she looked back on her life; all the men that came and went and the shallow emptiness of it all, and she realized she had selfishly pursued the wrong things. Now she was an older woman, and she was filled with regrets, and perhaps remorse. She tried to make amends for her choices, but it was too late by then.

bnicebkind,

I simply used my deceased aunt as an example of the kind of damage that can be caused by a mother who doesn't put her child first.

We have numerous SM's on this forum who are raising another woman's child and who are frustrated by the BM, who moves in and out of their child's life and who continually hurts the child.

Rather than dancing on a dead woman's grave, let's focus on the living and try to be supportive of the SM's who are trying to raise these children.

june0000, I understand, and I respect your desire to protect her even now.

And yet the reason that I responded, as I did, was to try and reach those who may read this forum, who may be making the same choices, and chasing relationship after relationship, far more interested in their own love life, than in the children they have brought into the world, who desperately need them to love them, parent them, and to be there for them, cheering them on in this hard world. And not to simply toss them aside for the newest boyfriend/girlfriend they met at the bar last week.

I understand that you care for your aunt,and I get that, but I was not going to let the comment slide that "I know my aunt loved her daughter" because it simply is not true. If she loved her daughter, really loved her, she would have put her daughters interests above her own. I say this not to hurt your beloved aunt, but to reach these women who claim to love their children, but have abandoned them, as they have moved far away to follow their latest boyfriend. Or leaving their child with the grandparents, because their latest boyfriend does not like the child, nor want them around.

Several step- mothers on this forum have full custody of their husbands children, because of women who have made the same choices that your aunt made.

I also did not want to see depression used as an excuse, for the choices so many of these women make, because I have known women (and men) who suffer from depression, and yet have raised, or are in the process of raising their own children in spite of it.

I have also known women who have left a child with the grandparents to raise, and others who gave up full custody to the father, all while actively pursuing their own love life...relationship after relationship, while someone else was raising their child, they were living a fast life, far from where their children live.

I have known four women who have done this, and there was nothing wrong with any of them, other than they were far more interested in pursuing what they wanted, in spite of the hardship it caused their older parents now having to raise their child, or the pain their children suffered, because of their choices. Or the ex-husband and his new wife struggling through the issues of raising the children she did not see because she lived across the country with her newest boyfriend.

And yet, I liked each of these women as people. I enjoyed them. We worked at the same company. I knew that these various women had a child in another state, that someone else was raising. They would talk about their various boyfriends and their social life and all they were doing. And yet, somewhere in the midst of it all was a child, yearning for a mom to want them enough to actually be there.

And I also recognize that sometimes, the grandparents or the fathers is the safest place for some of these children to grow up. That some women are in situations where they are unable to protect or provide for their children. And for those, perhaps it truly is in the child's best interest to live elsewhere. However, shouldn't these women at least live in the vicinity of their children to take an active role in their life, and be there for them at some level, on a consistent basis? To support their child and cheer them on? And at the vary least, to be someone that child can count on with absolute certainty, even if it is to call when they say they will (perhaps at the same time every Sunday) so that the child knows they care, and can be counted on, and that they matter.

Bnice - very well said.

If you were to substitute father for mother in Bricekind's last post, I suspect everyone of us knows quite a number of men who would fit that description. And when they remarry and have a "second family" (or whatever you want to call it) and are involved fathers to those children and ignore the children of the first marriage, they are admired for "getting it right the second time."

otherside- not to offend but I don't know who you associate with but no one I know am friends with or associate with would admire a man for doing that. Infact, the very opposite I would think and everyone I know ... that he is a ...well.. piece of sh**. All children deserve love and attention of the first second third or fourth family if that comes to pass. And, I would NOT admire a man or woman for doing anything of the sort. Infact, I have first hand knowledge of how much that can devastate a child ie:my cousin who is more like my older brother.

TOS, I don't know who you know that admires a father for 'getting it right the second time" but nobody I know would say that. In fact, my younger two children's fathers did get married and have children after abandoning the children I had. I don't know anyone that would pat either one of them for doing a good job with the ones they stuck around to raise. My daughter's father even abandoned another child he had before he married and when I talked to his wife a few weeks ago, she even told me how terrible he is for doing that. She isn't even patting him on the back because he turned his back on two children, even though he's been there to help her raise their four. Any parent that makes a child and turns their back on them doesn't deserve any praise for anything they do in their life. Period.

No one that I am friends with has said that, because that would have been the end of the friendship, but I have heard such statements on several occasions.

"She isn't even patting him on the back because he turned his back on two children, even though he's been there to help her raise their four."

But she was willing to MARRY a guy who would do that. That is even worse than the proverbial patting him on the back.

While you may be right, in her defense, she was very young (I think she was 16 or 17) when he got her pregnant. He most likely married her because she was pregnant and the other option was jail (he was 21 or 22). I think she was very young and in love and not thinking about things like an adult. She had four kids with him by the time she was in her mid 20's. He lied to her about my daughter so I don't know what he told her about his other child. But, she certainly doesn't think he's a wonderful father just because he stuck around with her. She told me that she tried for years to get him to see his other kids when he finally admitted that he had two from before he met her.

theotherside: Yes, I think so many of us know men who have done this, and for me, I do not admire them for getting it right the second time, but instead, I think most of us think here is a guy being a good father to "her" kids, or "their" new kids, but always in the background of my mind, is this is a man that actually walked away from his own children, for some woman. I may wonder if his first wife made it so difficult for him to have a relationship with his children, that he walked away, or I wonder if his new wife is so insecure and contolling that he is reduced to lunch at McDonalds with his first set of children. And I wonder if he is unable to stand up to his new wife, and so his own children suffer such a monumental loss. For some reason, I do consider the women as factors, but perhaps it is really that he lacks the ability to be a man and father all of his children, regardless of what he has to deal with from these women to do just that.

I agree with TOS. I would not marry a man who severed his relationship with his children. I fact i did meet two guys who did not have any relationship with their children. needless to say I never wanted to see them again. And if he would lie to me about having children and i discovered it later I would never want to see him again. And I would certainly not want to have children with his guy. The fact that somebody gets pregnant or has 4 babies is not a good excuse. I could never understand how getting accidentally pregnant is an excuse of anything. Even if at first she had sex without consent she apparently got 4 more children with him when she was of a legal age. It only shows that many people are OK with men abandoning their children.

having children in another state is not the same as abandoning them. It is not ideal but it does not mean you stop being a parent.

well, fine. I didn't say it was a GOOD excuse. She had four children with him before he finally admitted that he had two children before he met her. (Their youngest is 12 or 13 and she found out 9 years ago). I guess she could have left him and broken up their family too. I'm sure she saw or realized he didn't support his other two children so she might have known that she wouldn't get support from him either. Who knows what she's thinking, I'm not in her head. I don't believe she knew before she married him or before she had four kids with him. and I don't know if she stays out of love and devotion or for her kids, because if she left him, it would certainly be financially devaatating for her. She will become their sole support. Like I said, when I talked to her, she didn't sound at all like she had a lot of love and respect for him.

and I find it ironic that theotherside would sever a friendship with someone that would have a relationship with a guy that would do that, yet she's said many times she would take her husband back and even though he didn't have more kids, he isn't being a good dad to the ones he has with her and has practically severed his relationship with their kids. What's up with THAT?

And what's up with the sermon from the poster who used my deceased aunt as an example for others who might be thinking of leaving their kids with someone else.

Is anyone out there considering running off with their bf and dumping their kids on grandma to raise?

June, I don't think she was trying to use your Aunt, but was trying to make a point. I dont' think the point is going to reach anyone that would do that. I think the people that search for a site like this are devoted to their kids (& step kids) or at least want to make their situation better. I have to admit, I was going to print out her 'sermon' and send it to my SD's BM... or at the very least, post it on my blog that I know she reads. I don't think she was speaking directly of your Aunt, at least that isn't how I took it, but she was perhaps trying to give a wake up call to anyone out there that might think of choosing a man over their kids. (I think it's terrible when a parent chooses their career over their kids but it's a little more acceptable if they are at least using their career to give the kids a better life. I still would think the kids would rather not have the expensive lifestyle, but would rather have the parent's time & attention though)

iammommy, your SD's BM sees her every weekend. She might be crazy but she does see her daughter regularly. why do you equate her with someone who abandoned her children? if BM would live with SD and your DH would see SD on weekends, would you call your DH: abandoned his kid? Probably not. So why such a double starndard.

I think it has more to do with how the child feels about the situation. If BM had stayed living nearby and SD came to live with us, she wouldn't feel 'abandoned'. Last night, SD told DH that the reason she wants to go live with her mom is because she feels like moms new BF is taking her mom away. The truth is that mom has chosen the BF over her kids. It's not about how much she visits them, it's how the kids feel that she left and no longer sees them as much as she could (if she had stayed), or calls them as much as she could, and when they go see her, she tells them about her wedding plans and I'm sure they are hurt to hear mom so excited about her life without them. BM may not see it that way, but the kids probably do. Then, BM can't control herself for two days and has to take a shower with BF while the kids are there... of course the kids are not going to feel secure that their mom loves them. They see her choosing the BF. IMO, BM could have done things differently that would have made it easier for her kids. Like taking the time to let her kids get used to the idea that she had a BF, and then letting them know and get used to the idea of her moving. She may see them but she did abandon them. She chose BF over them and didn't put their need to feel secure about the situation first. That's why I feel that way. I think it's the same if a man goes from seeing his kids and when he gets a new GF or wife, he starts ignoring his child. I wouldn't allow my husband to hold my hand around his daughter because I could see it upset her when we were dating. But I think the parents need to have that awareness about how their kids feel.

If my step daughter didn't have such a big problem with what her mom did and was not feeling the way she does, I wouldn't think the mom abandoned her. But SD cries all the time and it breaks my heart to see her sadness when she tries to call her mom and gets the voice mail and mom doesn't call her back. My kids were abandoned before birth and they didn't suffer the way my SD is suffering right now. So, you may not agree that she has abandoned her children, but I don't know what you'd call it. She's hurt her kids very much and has no remorse. She blames me for her daughter's unhappiness. and sometimes, I feel like I am the one that cares more about her happiness than her own mother.