Living with a Man Before Marriage Couldnt resist this post

23 years ago

The first man I lived with It was great As the age old saying goes I got to try the milk for free without having to buy the cow. I left him after a few years. He had lots of wonderful goals and dreams, but only talked about them, never perused them. Could not pay his half of the bills. Could not keep a job. His best attributes Watching sports on TV and a 12 oz curl. Wanted a mom to take care of him, not a partner.

The second man that I live with he was a keeper. We married and had two wonderful children. Unfortunately he was killed in an auto accident.

Being a widow that was an experience (one I would NOT like to repeat) Did not have to enter the dating scene The men were lined up around the corner AND Every one wanted to fix me up. I had numerous opportunities before I was even ready to think about dating. Well the first man that I dated (more than once). I was fixed up with (pressured into) by his mother.

The first time we got close we had birth control failure. Publicly I am pro-choice personally I am pro-life. Now faced with having a child with a man that I have only known for six months, I decided to live with him. I was going to have his child, I might as well give the relationship a chance. He was and still is a wonderful father with my children. We have a great relationship. Then his teenaged son moved in. That was very, very difficult at first, but over time has gotten better. I have a better relationship with his son, then his son does with bio-mom. Trying to introduce rules to a pre-teen that was allowed all the freedom he wanted his whole life was a major under taking!!!!!! In the midst of all the turmoil, my husband and I got married and then had a child.

I am definitely pro living together before marriage. It gives you an idea of what 24/7 is like. It is not something to be taken lightly, especially when children are involved! You dont have to be living with someone to be having SE# Living together is Not about SE#, it is about the day to day pressures.

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Comments (68)

MIStepMom
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
OH Rosie, I have not always agreed with you, but this time you have really over stepped the boundaries. Marriages don't necessarily fail because the parties don't try to make it work. My grandfather was an alcoholic. My grandmother went about her life doing her own thing, but she always did the wifely duty of making dinner, laundry, etc. My grandfather ruined most every family gathering by getting drunk and making a scene. My mother would pack us kids up and we would go home, but the holiday was ruined and the memories linger. My husband was also an alcoholic and drug abuser. I lived this life for 15 years and after giving him the ultimatium he cleaned up his act, but the damage was done. Have you ever begged your husband on your hands and knees to not go out to a crack house, to stay home with his family and have him laugh in your face and go anyway. Only to come home 6 hours later and say he was sorry!!!! That was hell and that is only one of the stories. I tried like He** to get him to stop, I argued, I pleaded, I begged, I was angry, I was supportive, etc, but nothing worked. We dated 4 years before we married and we never slept together before that. So we did everything you described in another post and I never saw the side of him before marriage that I did after. He would go out after he dropped me off at home (my curfew was 12:00). So you should not be so judgmental when you don't know all the facts behind why a divorce was necessary. Many women are beaten black and blue repeatedly, should they stay and take that too just for the sake of staying married?
You are lucky that your's has worked out so well. But as you have stated before, your parents were divorced, do you look down on them? I would hope not. People are human and we all make mistakes, I hope you would not say that you don't.
God tells us not to judge others, but you are so judgmental. I hope your children learn to be more tolerant of society, because they may not be lucky enough to marry someone who can give them the life you have had, but they may find someone that loves them like no other and they may be very happy living in a mobil home. Isn't that what is is supposed to be all about? Think about it. You may also want to ask GOD for forgivness because you never know when you final judgement day will come and by then it is too late.
whazzup
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Well this has been interesting. As to the OP's topic, I certainly agree that there are reasons why some adults choose to live together before marriage. And it doesn't mean they are trashy or loose - that's just absurd. And once again we have seen from some of the responses that money does not buy class. Reminds me of an Emerson quote: Who you are speaks so loudly I can't hear what you are saying.
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I know you said you and he talked and a lot of things came out, but I can't be certain what those things were. I don't need to know of course. I am just concerned for stating any obvious points you already know and have already addressed with him. I'm really glad you had the courage to tell him some things that were on your mind. It is apparent you're bothered, hence the name of this thread and what you have expressed. And, you're right to be bothered. What is more, you're not sweeping these things under the rug, and that is so very commendable because most women do, which isn't good at all. It appears your naivete is working in your favor. Depite your fears, you approached him and addressed your concerns. You're really on the right road. Even if it means he doesn't like it, continue to stand your ground. You know you cannot imagine living this way indefinitely. I know one of the members is very keen on suggesting you seek counseling, and she's right for the most part. 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Dear all, Thank you for your thoughtful comments. I know I wrote a long post, but mkroopy, I do not expect everyone would understand my position in a short post. Thank you Sylviatexas, Readinglady and Justmetoo. You have been very understanding. In explanation to my position : 1. Before I got married, my parents had warned me that is anything were to happen (Inter-racial marriages in my country had boast issues like this before) I am not to return home crying when my marriage fail. I know my parents loved me and meant well, they only warned me of what would happen and they were absolutely right. but they are now retired, I cannot bear to burden them with my issues. If I am to find money, it will be on my own responsibility. 2. Like I mentioned above, by Muslim law, a wife can only divorce her husband for several reasons. You can refer to this : "Men have the right to divorce. If a man dislikes keeping his marriage for any reason, he divorces his wife and compensates her financially by paying her what is termed mut'a payment. This is in addition to the regular financial sustenance for her living, in case she has the custody of their children. Divorce becomes in effect once the husband utters or writes down any of the legal formulae of divorce such as: �I divorce you� or �you are divorced��etc. The husband can do these either by himself or through a messenger. In case it is the woman's desire to end the marriage, the situation becomes different. Her reasons might be that she has received ill treatment, the husband is unable to sustain her financially or he is sexually impotent. She can prove these defects in front of the judge, then the judge grants her divorce with a full access to all her financial rights. Also, if the husband was good to her but she does not want to keep on for an emotional reason, then she asks for what is termed khul'. This means to be granted divorce but without any access for financial rights, plus paying back the husband the dowry that he already paid on marrying her." I have made it clear to my husband that I don't want anything from him if he divorces me, but it seems like he is smart, he knows I won't be able to find a reason to divorce but for emotional reasons. I'm sure do hope that I'm wrong; I hope he doesn't want my money, after all his late wife did leave some for him. I am just like a pawn, I am only to suffer in a position where there is nothing I can do. 3. To Justmetoo, the solution you proposed was exactly what I did. Like I mentioned above, after my parents told me to ignore her coz eventually she will leave, I did exactly that. I ignored her. I stopped whatever I did before ie.plates to the dishes, pick up your mess, ask for permission first, spend your money wisely, you don't need another concert etc, MY HUSBAND DEEMED ME UNCARING. And again I say, I had established an understanding that I am not going to do anything anymore to make it better with her, unless she starts to do so herself. This are how things are now, she doesn't need my permission for anything, and in fact even if she does ask me, it is because she was told to by her father. And even if she did, it was, "I'm going out now, Ok Annie?" or "I'm going to borrow the bathtub, OK?" or "Can you send me to my friend's house later?" I know because her father asks her to do so, she knows I was the one who made the changes in the first place, so she behaves worst. 4. About her mother's things, you are terribly right. It was definitely my fault for clearing up the things. I just couldn't bear to live in the bedroom, which is the house under he name willed to the daughter (we are moving out sometime in 2013, AT LAST =( ) with no where to put my things. I felt really not at peace living here, everywhere I look it was just her possessions and reminders of her. Like I said, my Husband seemed very ignorant about how I felt. He had in fact mentioned I didn't know her and had no rights to hate her. She cheated on him and I didn't, I still don't understand why I get treated as if I was the one who did him wrong. I hate her terribly, It was because of what she did, that my husband is bitter and refused to clear up the mess. It was his responsibility and he dutifully neglected it and left me with the bitter consequences. I was told that the daughter was not very close to the parents. In fact, with both working adults and one spending too much time with someone else, a lot of things were left to other people to be responsible for. The maid handles a lot of things and she was given all she wanted so she wouldn't whine and cause troubles to her parents. Most definitely, I read her blog and she wrote that "my mum bullies me and don't support me" and "I didn't cry when mummy died." In fact, there wasn't an issue at all, until I came in the house. God knows what did she realize, but I doubt she appreciated her mother much until she realized someone else became the new woman in the house. The only thing I can think of now, is to live like nothing happened. Ignorance is not my forte, my blood boils to see her mess and her unthoughtful attitude about eating her share of food at home. It's makes me terribly sad that my husband says I don't care for either of them. I would have to save up my money wisely, study hard and start building a better life for myself in the future. Meanwhile, I would just have to take everything thrown at me. PS : My husband has mentioned in the past the one thing he wont tolerate is cheating and that consents a divorce. I can't do that, and even if I faked it, the bad would just be reflected on me. My husband is very smart of pretending like everything is beautiful and on cloud 9 in front of people. No one would believe of his character or assume something is wrong with our marriage.
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mom_2_4
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I just went back and re-read Rosie's post and it pissed me off all over again!

I know people like you, Rosie -- they are righteous do-gooders on Sundays but pretentious bores the other six days. Oh, how I wonder if your husband and your kids are as perfect as you imagine. I bet things aren't as peachy as you think. Who knows ... maybe your daughter is having sex right now!

There is no shame in being poor. As the saying goes "there but for the grace of God go I" ...

Please do tell us what city you live in Rosie. I want to make sure to NEVER go there if your attitude is the norm in your town.
RosieTrailerTrash
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hey RosieL,
Here is a reply from one of the "Trailer Trash". How shallow would the world be if we all judged eachother on economic factors. I am an active male parental figure in the rearing of my girlfriends children (11 & 13). Our home, where we all live, appraised at $990,000. I drive a Lotus Esprit for fun and late model Jetta for an airport car. She drives a Jaguar XJ series. I am a Commercial Pilot on a privatly owned $12.7 million jet. Do you know what one of my greatest posessions is? A 'Certificate of Appreciation' from our girls 4th grade class. It hangs in my study next to diplomas, pictures of me with Presidents, rock stars and even Royalty. I am proud of the fact that I know, on a personl basis, almost all of our kids teachers and friends. Some of them are even 'Bussed In' to our school district...Gasp! I doubt if my Dad knew where my school was. We are not married but we are Happy. And that is what is important. We have arguments and problems but we also have Family Meetings and Board Game Night at least once a week.

I look down on you not because I am half your age and my house is worth twice as much as yours. I look down on you because you are simple and petty. It gives you pleasure to judge because you need some justification for being a follower. I think you are small minded and resentfull of the fact that you have been a passive participant in your Stepford Wife existance. 30 years happily married? Then why do you feel the hunger to taunt others in poverty? Did you grow up poor? Does acting like this help you seperate yourself emotionally from your childhood? I was raised in a log home in the mountains of Utah. I know the taste of powdered milk and a coal burning fireplace. I was also raised with class. That is something that can never be bought. It doesn't matter if I am driving my $10,000 Volkswagen Jetta or $70,000 Lotus, I carry myself with the same amount of dignity. I hope you never loose your 'great financial foothold'. If you do, there will be nothing left but a bitter husk.......... In a trailer.
stacey446
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
How does she know so much about everyone in her "small" town? YOu mean to tell me that there is a town somewhere and it is filled with bigots? lol
keli_or
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
My dad and stepmom lived together for 7 years before getting married (for the health insurance). They have been happily together for 27 years!

My first husband and I lived together for about a year before we got married. Had a baby together, but he didn't step up to the plate as a husband. I should have seen the signs when we were dating and then living together.

This time around I dated my DH for over 4 years before we got married. For the first year we dated, he didn't even interact with my son. I wanted to be sure it was something that had potential before introducing my son into the picture, for my son's sake. The last thing he needed was another male figure dropping out of his life. Since I had a young son, I didn't want to live with my husband before we got married. I needed the marriage ceremony to create a sense of permanence.

This was MY choice.

I don't have anything against living together before marriage. I think it works for some people. I just think that there is a trend for people to move in together before they have dated for very long. I worry about the effect that has on children. Because to a child, if you're living in the same house, that's a family. And what happens when you "break up" and move on? How do you explain that to a child?

Once I'm living with someone, I consider myself to be married. So what's the big deal about going to the next step and making it legal?

Keli
darkeyedgirl
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
To Rosie:

What are you doing on a Stepfamily forum?

To bash?

To bicker?

To wonder what life had been like if you had left your cheating husband and went for a life you could only dream of?

blah on you.

I'm here on this forum because I am divorced, a mother, and living with my boyfriend.

I Am Morally Bankrupt! (yippie I'll burn in hell)

- darkeyedgirl
webegardnr
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
RosieL wrote:
You truely are a bigot in the biggest sense of the word. You lack the one thing that makes decent human beings: COMPASSION. You have shown your true self in this posting, you have an ugly soul.
nadastimer
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Something came to me earlier today and I wanted to comment. I don't like these parents who think just because they've been married to the same man all their lives and went to church and raised their kids perfectly that their kids are perfect. In every instance that I've known, the kids that grew up in homes like this are in the worst situations and make the worst decisions. It's like once they get their freedom, they do whatever they weren't allowed to do as a child or while with their parents. My Mom's friend used to wonder where she failed because she and her husband made her kids sit in church two times a day Sunday and then again Wed. nights and attend Sunday school all their lives and they're doing all these things now that they're adults...just because you sit in church and preach the rights and wrongs of the world to your kids, doesn't mean they're not going to mess up or make mistakes or anything like that. We all have to experience the world for ourselves and make our own lives and that includes making our own mistakes...it's the only way we really learn.
ladylawyer
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Why not "live and let live"? I have had people sneer at me because I got pregnant when I was dating my husband only six months. Let them sneer, I say. I got the most beautiful, blue eyed, blondie in the whole world who smiles this big toothy grin (seven teeth already and he's only 9 months old!!!) and claps his little hands. I wouldn't trade him for anything, not even for other people's good opinion.

I try to be as open minded as I can (although I know I don't live up to this "ideal" all the time). I can tell you, I have met some really incredible people, and many of them are people from different races, social classes, moral beliefs, etc. I went to college at a very large urban university with about 35,000 students, 40% of which were from other countries. It was the best experience of my life. I met people with fascinating stories and learned far more than I ever learned sitting at a desk.

The point I would make is, instead of judging people, listen to them. Listen to their stories. Listen to lessons learned without criticizing. You only deprive yourself from some very rich experiences if you close your mind to what others have to say and dismiss them because you don't agree with the path in life they have chosen. Personally, I don't think there is a "right" way to live one's life. There are too many variables, life has a way of throwing you curveballs. I believe that doing what seems best at the time and doing it with the right intentions is all you can do.

I loved your post, RosieTrailerTrash, especially the part about your most valued possession. I too have the "finer things" in life and do enjoy them, but far more precious to me are the little things my son makes me and the "lovey dovey" cards my husband gives me every holiday with the little love notes he writes inside.
stacey446
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
amazing. That there are people out there that actually come here to brag about what they have. Can you imagine having these people at family holiday dinners and having to stomach that crap? I bet that these people walk into gatherings and are so "above" everyone else that they cant say even a hello. When we tell our stories (and some of them are just that) it is our version of the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. I guess that is why we make up our little mini stories and justify it to a bunch of strangers on the net. Although I love this website I am amazed at the lack of brains some have here. Funny thing, these are the people that claim they are so smart!! LMAO. I am glad that I am a big enough person to be able to say "hey, I messed up period" not oh but this and oh but that. Some people who post on this forum also post on others and if you have seen some of their other posts you can really see their mini versions in a different light. EXCUSES EXCUSES EXCUSES! They messed up but, hey it was because of this or that. They messed up but, hey its ok because I say it is. They messed up but, hey its everyone else not me. I am far from perfect you know why? because I mess up. Take what people here say with a grain of salt. There are people here who make stuff up to make themselves look better. There are people here who need attention. Live honestly and stop trying to fool everyone and yourself. It doesnt work.
mom_2_4
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Stacey, I think there's only one to be concerned about. The rest of us are simply saying "hey, you can have all the monetary success in the world, but that doesn't mean you have to be an a$$hole", too ...
stacey446
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
sorry I was rambling. I guess in a nutshell is hey this is the internet for all we know rosiel could own this website and want us to get hooked so we pay! lol
Habibi
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I think that it's time for Rosie to reply. Why does she use this forum? From what I can see she has been using it for about two years now. From what I have read, it seems she is using it to insult other people who might be in vulnerbale situations and who seek help and support rather than downright rudeness. I am really shocked to see what she has written.
"I can take it, guys. I've been married almost 30 years - happily - living by my standards."
Well, Rosie, your standards are yours and there is no reason why you should impose them on the rest of the world so as to judge other people.
"what are your stories? If you do wrong ... you get wrong."
Well Rosie, I think you are doing VERY wrong by butting in a forum to which you obviously do not belong and which provokes a great deal of rejection and anger in you. I wish you luck for the bad karma that's flying your way at the speed of light.
"DH and I have a business. We are home together 24/7."
So what, I've known women who are at home together with their husbands all day and get beaten up, their children are mentally ill and worse. Being at home together all day means nothing.
"You have failed at your relationships ... why can't you listen to someone that has succeeded."
I think to date people have been listening, out of respect and maybe because you did seem to have something worthwhile to say. But now you have really overstepped the mark and are acting in an outrageously arrogant fashion. Not to mention cruel.
"PS In our area ... we call them trailer park trash. The cheapest homes here start at around $365,000 ... we are at that bottom end at around 385. The mobile homes are in surrounding areas so that the kids won't be in the same schools with ours. Lifestyles are definitely different. Glad that the lines are drawn accordingly."
I think you should leave this forum now. To date you have not provided anyone with one single good reason to explain what you are doing here in the first place. You are definitely very cruel, which makes me think that lurking beneath your all-American happiness is a bag of vipers and problems most of us don't even have nightmares about.
stacey446
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
HABBI!!!
YOU GO GIRL!! As I said in my an earlier posts lets just ignore her. Would this women say this to our faces? I am sure she would not. Not to sound mean but, when you have all she has I dont have much respect for you anyway because you had a man help you get it. Same with mommy and daddy putting someone through school and now they enjoy the "finer things" BIG HAIRY DEAL.. You didnt get it on your own. I would never refer to my things as finer things-finer than what yours? lol. If my house was on fire just get my dogs and the cross that was above my grandfathers head in his casket everything is nothing nothing nothing. I saw your other post and I just want you to know that most people in the USA are not like this. Because of the internet (which I love) you can have all kinds of trash chatting with you, posting on formus ect ect. Trash comes in all packages even with money oppps "finer things" lol. I hope that you stick around because usually this place is a much more fun place to visit. I would love to tell you that this may change because of the having to pay to post but, like I said trash also comes with money so we might be stuck with her. All of this is my opinion as always. I do not think anyone has to agree with me. Let god judge me. In the meantime if you dont have anything nice to say dont say it right?
Susnnn
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Rosie is on this forum because her parents were divorced when she was a child. I do not understand why after all of this time someone feels the need to revisit that situation, but if I spoke my opinion, I would be "judging" Rosie and I do not creep to that level.
If Rosie feels that children of divorce "need mental help" or are being raised with no morals, then she is a contadiciton of those statements. From what she seems to have grown up to have a good life. The problem I see with the things that she posts is that they seem to be saying "I am above all of this" and that we should be just like her and we will be happy and have great lives. Therefore I have no idea why Rosie is here.
She is so very glad that there are boundaries in her community that seperate the "trailer trash" from her people. But she sinks low enough to log on to the Internet and hang out with all of the "trailer trash"(as she calls it) in this forum. Is there some Freudian theory to all of this?
Everyone here has been through enough crap. We all have made our mistakes, but I think that we're here to try to improve things in our lives by hearing from people who have been through simliar stuff. We are not here to be insulted and looked down upon.
So Rosie if you can't appreciate this forum and the people who are here, then maybe you need to find a new forum to hang out in. Oh I am trying very hard not to say all the insultive things I could say, but I refuse to put myself on that level!!
bluetoes
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
LOL.I can not even begin to think what hell you have put your daughter threw Rosie..lol. I thought my Mom was bad, wheww you top the cake. I don't know how much a mobile home cost where you live, but here in SC, they can run in 100,000.00. Besides, why would someone take the time to judge people for small things like what they have, and not the person they are. Are you only friends with people who have the very best? You can give children everything they want in life, but you should never say what they will and want do.. It could back fire fast. I really hate to know there are more people like you.. Don't ever come to SC, cause there is alot of mobile home owners here.
MIStepMom
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Rosie's parents didn't divorce until she was an adult with her own family. I don't think this would have given her a real feel for the needs of stepchildren or stepparents. As an adult, you can go about your business and not be as affected as a stepchild would. Rosie has stated that her stepmother was evil and that certainly may have been the case, but I think she has unfairly labeled all other stepmothers. I hope she takes the time to really think about her actions this time. As I said in my previous post, we never know when judgement day will come and I for one would be scared if I lived my life as she.
tracymomof4
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I have been thru 2 horrible marriages 1 lasted 14 miserble years the other only 2 (thank goodness) Yes im stupid enough to try it one more time but not before living with him at least a year!!! I dont care how much you see someone or date someone you dont know a person til you live with em period! My children ( i have 4 great boys) are perfectly normal inspite of my divorces. We own our own home, i work full time pay all my own bills own my car, and my kids want for nothing but gosh according to Rosie im immoral , trashy and gonna burn in h*!! because i divorced well guess what rosie i personally dont give a da** about your opinion of me but i certainly hope i never run across you narrow minded stepford town. Besides ya'll couldnt handle a smart mouthed, twice divorced, trailor trash redneck like me :D
ponderinstuff
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I'm here because I find it interesting hearing what people have experienced since I was a step kid.

Rosie, I agree with you about the not living together...just my opinion all based on my personal convictions. However you really irritate me when you talk about trailer trash.

I drive a school bus at the present time. I drive kids from a very poor trailer park, as well as very wealthy areas. There is no difference. Many of the rich people are gone all the time because of their jobs, many of the poor people are gone all the time because they need to work two jobs. There are good parents and bad parents in either area. You are very foolish if you believe poverty equals guaranteed problems. Some of my biggest problems are the kids with much, and parents that are extemely demanding because they feel supperior to others.

Your business could be gone tomorrow, so maybe you shouldn't be so quick to judge. I know two wealthy families that have lost everything, and now live in apartments because their family business went under after years of abundance. One of them is my sis. She lived in a gorgous lake home with a very succesful business, and has lost it all trying to keep the business going in hard economic times.
Billl
23 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi - I'm new - but this is my 2 cents.

Everyone chooses different paths to take in life, and there isn't just one successful one. However, if you go by the statistics, you are more likely to eventually split if you live together before marriage. Certainly that isn't the case for everyone, but those are the averages. For the holier-than-thou crowd, athiest are actually the least likely to get divorced - go figure. Also, statistically, poor people are more likely to get divorced or never married in the first place. Statistically kids from wealthy homes with two parents present fair much better in school and economically down the line. However, that does not mean any particular individual should be judged by the actions of the group. People and relationships succeed or fail on their merritts, not the averages.
me_yahoo_com
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Having sex outside of marriage is a sin. When one has full knowledge that it's a sin and gives full consent it is a mortal sin. Those dying in the state of mortal sin descend directly into hell after death and judgment. It is not worth going to hell for. Those who live together before marriage cause scandal even if they aren't having sex because they contribute to the overall moral decline by their example. Generally those who cohabit before marriage do have sex. It is the assumption in such cases. So even if they aren't having sex their bad example encourages others to live together. And the others will likely commit the mortal sin of fornication. The purpose of our destination does not end in this life. What we do in this life determines if we go to heaven or hell. It's not worth losing heaven over a temporary pleasure in this life. it is pure foolishness. We must consider the next life. Cohabitation is generally dependant on artificial birth control. Many of these methods destroy an embryo. Those destroyed children also have eternal souls and we will see them on the other side though we think nothing of them here. i dont want to get to the other side and meet several children i killed through the use of birth control. People will scoff at the idea of hell but there are plenty of people in hell who did not believe in it's existence.
verenap
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Ohh...I just had to respond to this one...

To 'me' (who dug this thread up three year after it had died out)

From the perspective of someone who was raised in the church but has seen both sides of the fence.

I'm assuming that you're a catholic, since you discuss mortal sin vs. non-mortal sin and decending directly to hell as opposed to (I'm assuming) purgatory. I was raised with a different perspective (more along the lines of the baptists)- sin is sin, all will send you directly to hell unless you repent...I'm sure you're familiar with this, so I won't get into it further.

I find it interesting that you would post on this forum. In my understanding, divorce itself is considered a sin (after all a wedding is an oath made before God to love one person for the rest of your lives), and since it's knowingly entered into, wouldn't that make it a mortal sin as well?

So more to the point anyway, as I said, I grew up in the church, with very devout parents. In the same way as RosieL in the original posts, my parents made it clear while we were growing up, that living together was immoral and wouldn't be accepted, and that if any of us chose that lifestyle, we would be financially cut off.
I got my first BF in grade 12. He was a 'good Christian boy' in public, but in private he was just another horny teenage guy. We spent 2 years as hypocrits, the 'perfect christian couple' in the public eye, and doing everything but...in private (everyone familiar with the term 'technical virgin'?). Eventually he pushed enough that I gave him what he wanted (even though he knew I didn't want to). He proposed shortly after that, and I broke up with him (clued in and decided I didn't want to spend my life with someone who didn't respect me or my feelings.) His mother (who I was quite close with) and my own, got the story out of me as to why I didn't want to marry him, and (with good intentions I'm sure) tried to tell me that I needed to marry him. (After all, we'd commited a terrible sin, but in some way we could attone for it if we got married and he made an 'honest' woman out of me...) Anyway, that didn't happen.
A few months after that I moved in with (now) DH. Mom and Dad HATED him. They didn't even have to meat him. They would invite me to dinner, and specify that the invitation was NOT open to him. (It took a year, of me refusing to come to Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc., before they finally met him.)

I had to explain to my parents, and will now to you 'me', that telling a person, with very little or no religous background, that they are condemming themselves to hell for whatever sin, is a completely ineffective way of dealing with "sinners" and will only further push them away.
Believe me, when I broke up with my ex, a lot of people who were 'supposed' to be my friends judged me and decided that I had broken it off with him (in their opinions a perfectly respectable christian young man), because I had started sleeping with some other guy (the rumor he had started). They never even bothered to ask my side of it...which was that he purposly got me drunk at his college Christmas party (the first time I'd ever had alcohol) so he could get in my pants, and I couldn't live with the shame or disrespect of it. The way I was treated by 'the church' pushed me away from it, enough that even several years later I've only been through the door a handful of times (at the request of my mother).

My point is this: everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and it's your right to express it. Just remember that HOW you express it will determine how it's received. 'Me', if your goal in expressing your opinion is to show people the 'error' of their ways, you may want to consider taking a less judgemental approach, otherwise you just end up coming across as a bigot. Congratulations...you know the 'rules'...now you need to learn to convey them with LOVE...judgement and condemnation are supposed to be left to the 'Big Guy'.

Oh, about my parents...it took them a year to meet the man I 'shacked-up' with, but they fell in love with him (just like I knew they would) and now they brag about their favorite son-in-law (we've been married 2+ years now) to everyone. They came to realize that even though he doesn't share their faith, he has a kind, gentle and loving heart...and when it comes to a spouse for their daughter, they'd rather have that, than a disrespectful "christian".

Verena
bnicebkind
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Someone brought this post back to life, and as I scanned it, I want to respond to a post made by nadastimer...even though it was posted a few years ago, I want to ask anyway.

In your first post you wrote "it is much better to live in sin than to rush down the isle". What I do not understand, is if you are living with this man, instead of married to him because you do not want to rush down the isle BEFORE you are certain you want to marry him, then why are you having children with your boyfriend (which ties you to him for the rest of your life, whether you marry him or not?????

I do not understand why people are having children with someone they are not willing to commit to, or that person is unwilling to commit to them.

Having and raising children is such an enormous, profound responsibility, and experience. Why would anyone want to go into this with someone they do not want to commit to? They do not want to rush down the isle, but they want to rush into making a family?

I would like to hear why you choose to do it this way? What is your thinking or logic? I see that several of the stars do this too...and I wonder why this seems OK to anyone? Can someone fill me in?
turkeytrott
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I can not believe some of the post to this.As for the religious people THOUGH SHALL NOT JUDGE OTHERS and as for my point of view to each their own !!I have a 23 year old daughter who has dated her BF for 3 years (they have discussed getting married but feel they can not at this time),she has endometriosis and is about to have her second surgery due to this they have told her they may need to take one of her ovaries.She is heartbroken that she may never have children,I have tried to convince her to have her children before they have to operate on her again wherein she could lose her second ovary but because of his parents feeling somewhat like RosieL she wants to respect them and wait til they are married which could cost my daughter the chance of ever having children.Those who have narrow minds should keep their opinions to themselves,there are many reasons why people chose to live together first as well as start a family.I for one do not want to go to heaven if all I have to look forward to is spending eternity with narrow minded people.By the way RosieL I have a wonderful husband and 5 awesome kids,this does not make me any better than any one of my divorced or single with children friends.
Vivian Kaufman
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I don't consider myself narrow-minded, although I certainly am much more conservative than I used to be. Comes with age and some cynicism, I believe. I'll be the first to admit to that. I guess I see a lot of "I want" or "we want" or "it's good for us to..." whatever. I lived with both of my husbands before we were married, and to some extent, it is a decision that I regret for a number of reasons. My first marriage ended in divorce anyway. Luckily, we had remained childless, so the only real losers were me and my ex-husband. Big deal. You move on.

My second marriage has come with stepkids--who I love more than anything. They really ARE my kids in a number of ways and I could NEVER let them down.

Now, the argument comes to mind that the adults who decide to live together before they're married set up a situation whereby they're encouraging their chldren to invest in a person that they're not even sure that they want to marry. There seems to be a lot of people calling themselves step-parents when in fact mom or dad hasn't thought enough of them to make a formal commitment to them. Sort of a cart before the horse thing: "I'm not sure that I want to marry you, but you go ahead and parent my kids." My problem comes about when the adults decide that it doesn't work out, leaving the children to experience yet another parental upheaval. Now granted, marriages often don't work out, too, but at least the adults WERE sure at one point and didn't ask the kids to invest in something that even they didn't want to.
paigect
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
hey Vivian, will you please marry my ex? :-)
Vivian Kaufman
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
You'll have to take that up with my husband, Paige...LOL
bnicebkind
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Vivian...your quiet wisdom, and your ability to share your thoughts without judgement, are such an asset to this forum. You are able to present your thoughts in such a way that they are well worth listening to. Thank you for the time that you give to this forum, to those that seek advice. You are willing to stand for something, whether it is popular or not...and I admire that. So few are willing to actually do it.
Vivian Kaufman
20 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Aw, geez....that's very kind of you.

I've seen a lot of crap in my 10 years as a stepmonster-er mother...LOL It's a good life most of the time, but there are sure a lot of people who seem to think that it's easy. It's the hardest job I've ever done--and not because of the kids. It's hard because of the adults.

But it's worth it,...I think.....sometimes....:)
cb24
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I have recently moved in with my boyfriend of a year. I understand that everyone is entitled to thier own opinions. The part that is the hardest for me is my family. They do not support my decision because they are Catholic. I was raised Catholic and I believe in treating those the way you wish to be treated. My family has for the most part disowned me. I am not asking for them to support something they don't believe, but perhaps be a little more open-minded.
coolmama
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
To be honest,I'am in another generation who is not exactly keen on marriage.I swore to myself my whole life I would neither get married or have a kid.

So,I got a place with this guy and we ended falling in such love that I decided,Yes I did want to marry him.

Had I not lived with him,and really seen what a truely wonderful person he was,we wouldnt be married for 10 years now!

This is no longer the 1950's...dating is hard now days,In order to really know someone,you have to live with them IMO.

Just look at the show SEX AND THE CITY,that show is a sign of the times. People are no longer rushing out to be married.Just something to think about.
going_bonkers
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
cb24,
some families need time to adjust, time to figure out that their "reputation" in the church, neighborhood,or with other family and friends dulls in comparison to losing a daughter. Do what makes you happy... your the only one who has to live your life.

When you look back on the road of life, all those mountains that once stood in your way, now look like nothing more than a bump in the road!

Just a note on previous post.... RosieL is divorced(hubby left her for a nice woman), broke(hubby and new wife got everything), and renting a trailor in that neighborhood on the otherside of the tracks(TG her kids are grown or they would be in that "wrong" school)......LOLOLOL
dirtdiva
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
OK OK Most of you are turned off by RosieL's posts. Just some thoughts..you really don't know why she feels the way she does. You don't know what she's been through.

As far as living together: It's a personal decision. Depending on the situation, it could be a good idea. Some people choose to just live together and not get married. But I do strongly believe if you have children, you should not live together before marriage. Just not a good idea because there are children involved. Bad idea under those circumstances.
going_bonkers
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Turned off is an understatment... From what she says, she is perfect, with perfect morals... but I can see one huge flaw as most of the other posters.... she acts like she sits at the right hand of god, judging other people and telling them how to live. There is that old saying... never judge a book by its cover... well RosieL opened her book and showed us what she keeps on her pages inside. For that alone she deserves any nasty comments she gets...
IMO the last thing people on here with real problems (that come for advice)need is some high flutin' society woman telling everyone how wonderful she is with lots of money and people who have less money than her are the dirt under her feet!! ... just a thought
Vivian Kaufman
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I went back and read Rosie's posts (3 years later...LOL) and I really don't see what the big hoo ha was about. Okay, maybe the upper/lower class thing was a bit much, but instilling morals and expecting certain behavior from your children doesn't strike me as all that bizarre or judgmental.

I want my daughter to value herself more than I did when I was younger and made those kinds of mistakes. (Yes, living together before we were married was a mistake.) She deserves better. I hope that she waits for a man who will commit to her spiritually and intellectually--not just in words but in deed. It's one thing to say "I love you" and entirely another thing to be married. If I am able to teach her anything, I hope that it is exactly that.

So, I guess I think that Rosie is NOT wrong, although I suspect that the tenor of her post could upset people. Money and social class have very little to do with moral/immoral behavior. It happens at all levels. Nor do I find her post all that judgmental. We as humans have a propensity to judge people. We certainly form opinions on right and wrong and those social mores are how we live our own lives and what we teach our children. We do get to pick and choose. Hooray.

I want a better life for my kids than what I have had. Although I cannot do it for them, I can at least make the tools to get it available.
going_bonkers
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
RosieL can have a view or opinion on living together.... i dont have a problem with that but... and a big BUT.... she had the nerve to say that because of her status (money) that she had better morals than the rest of us.... that because she had money she knew better and we should listen to her because she was successful.... spare me... I have known more people with money and void of morals than I have people void of money with morals!!
coolmama
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I completely agree with going bonkers. I have a rich uncle,who made MILLIONS of dollars a year.

They had everything you could possibly imagine...Yet,he is now an alcoholic,cheated on my Aunt and gave her 4 STDS!!!

Geez,just look at celebrities for the sake of arguement.They have tons of money,social standing,and look how immoral they are!
Money doesnt make anyone a better person.

And,I think it is better to live with someone,and find out how they REALLY are,before you rush off and marry them and they turn out to be some kind of woman beater.
Vivian Kaufman
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Well, that would be all fine and well, EXCEPT for the fact that this isn't a "ME" forum. This is a stepfamily forum. What seems good for you is not necessarily what's good for your children.

I think that to compare living together before marriage cheapens marriage. It is not the same no matter how you slice it. I think that it erodes the feeling of permanency and commitment that two people should get from marriage. It's become too easy--too easy to marry and too easy to divorce. I abhor anything that makes it easier.

It's a complete shame.

Like I said before, what's good for all of the ME's out there is not necessary good for all of the families. It's apples and oranges.
brass_tacks
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
What rosie does with her thinking is stereotype people into groups. That kind of thinking is a rationalizing that she does to come to some conclusion that she already had...a kind of prejudical kind of thinking that is void of critical kind of thinking wherein conclusions are made with the evidence and truth of a matter coming after (not before) some logical, fact-finding evaluations. So her opinions are attractive to lazy kind of thinkers with the same kind of prejudice.

As for what is right, it would depend on what a person uses for their measurements. If a person wants to believe that the Bible is their yardstick, they will be inclined to make certain kinds of decisions. If a person wants to go along with popular mores, they will be inclined to make certain kinds of decisions. Then there are those kind of thinkers that don't make decisions based upon what an Almighty would judge, and they don't care what other people are doing or thinking---what do we call them? Original? LOL Yes, lots of people like to think that they have their own code of ethics.

As for the children caught somewhere in the mire of adult problems/ways of thinking, well we only have to remember that children mimick what they see (or what they can figure out). To have a particular belief and then act as if we have another kind of belief must be confusing to anyone around us--but it is the normal kind of behavier we see all the time. There is a word to describe that--confounded? It is not unusual that people get all mixed up.

I probably could write a book on this subject...but I need to spread some bug killer today...LOL

So many years ago -- before 1900, say before the industrial revolution, and for sure before electricity...so many people lived on farms. It was easy to have kids--probably the only way a mom didn't get in the family-way was if she was nursing a child. To make a very long story short, kids were needed; wives were needed; dads were needed. If kids didn't follow directions--ouch! I am sure there was lazyness back then just as there is today--but lazy people didn't live long. You don't keep a house/cabin warm with hopes, or love, or wishes. Farm animals die if they don't get taken care of. You don't have anything to barder with if you've been sitting on your hands.

Just what am I trying to say. Well, people get married or decide to just live together for many reasons...but it's all about survival in one form or another. Some people are not needed much. All the people playing and sitting--can't be much needed, huh? In my mind, this must take a toll on self-esteem, and I would think it may also be noticed in the lack of self-discipline we can't help but notice. Parents doing it all, or kids doing it all? Something is happening in this country -- ok, so now I'm going off. Please forgive me. I believe that if a person will sit down and be very truthful with their thinking, they will be able to reason just what they should do. Get married or live together. If there are children involved, that kind of decision is of the utmost importance.
simply_sharon
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
First of all I was under the impression that on these forums people voice their opinions about different subjects. Rosie's post was simply "her" opinion and no one elses. Sadly enough their are their are people in the world who would agree with her, both poor and rich people. I don't believe that money makes the person, I believe that knowledge or ingorance has alot to do with people's opinions. I know many couples who have all of the things that Rosie and her husband have, and have been married many years. The women brag about what a happy marriage and wonderful life they have. The husbands say they would leave in a heart beat if the wife didn't get everything. And this might not be the case with Rosie, but after reading her opinion on some things I really feel sorry for the people in her life. So ladies don't get angry, say a little prayer for her. No matter how many bad or difficult things you have gone through in life, she could be your mother, or wife, etc.... Makes you appreciate things alot more. Doesn't it?
organic_maria
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I lived with my husband for 3 years before we got married. My Older brother did not agree with it. My twin brother did agree. And both are priests:)no its not a sin. So you see, its an opinion. Its not a life style or saving money. The point of it, is to get to know one another UNDER the same roof. I've seen people date for 4 years. Engage. Marry. The minute they began to live one another , all hell broke loose. My friend annuled her wedding within the year. Living together i think the sin aspect is more to do with the 'sex before marriage'. Well in this day and age, sorry to break the news but kids are doing it.
Either way. Living together in these times is the best way to get to know one another. And you dont have to live together for years. You pretty much know after 1-3 months if you can stand to be in the same room with the man or woman you love. Its one thing to love someone. Another thing to live with them 24/7.
Vivian Kaufman
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
"Well in this day and age, sorry to break the news but kids are doing it."

....but don't you see, they don't HAVE to. Not every kid is engaged in that activity. Yes, a lot of them are, but not ALL OF THEM. Sterotyping is just as hurtful in reverse. It's not fair to sell kids short because not all of them are engaging in amoral behavior.

The arguement that "everyone is doing it" doesn't hold water and never will. I nor my kids are not "everyone." We are individuals with free will and intellect. They are not mutually exclusive and most assuredly should be used in conjunction with one another.

I have immense distaste for the erosion of morals in society and the throwaway culture that has come of it. I demand better for me and my kids.

Life's a funny thing. It often happens that you get what you ask for. Might as well ask for the moon--or demand it. Human beings don't have to settle provided they're not averse to a little work and have a bit of determination. We're ultimately in charge of our own happiness or lack thereof.
sylviatexas1
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Y'all sure her name is really Rosie?

not Hyacinth Bucket, I mean BooKAY?
coolmama
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Well,vivian 31,you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

From my point of view,I grew up thinking the same things you do.But I saw first hand how most of it is a phasod.That uncle I have who was rich,married my aunt right out of high school.

They didnt live together out of sin as you put it...and years later we find out how truely unhappy they have both been.How they wished they'd have known each other better in the living sense before they signed on.

Same with so many other couples I know...

What I want for my daughter,since as you say this isnt a "ME" forum,is that she be happy.

That she marrys a man who she knows is gonna treat her right and love her for who she is.And as the other posters said,without living with someone before marriage~there is no real way of knowing the person.

I also would never pressure my daughter to marry at all.My mom pressured me and my sister,and my sister is 27 and already divorced.No one even thought my husband and I would make it either...but her we are 11 years later.

My mom is on her third marriage by the way.

I agree,divorce is made extremely too easy. That is why I want my daughter to have the option of really knowing a guy,and living with him before she decides to make such a life altering descion of getting married in the first place.When she gets married...I want her to be totally sure what she is up against,in hopes that her marriage will last,if it is under the right circumstances.
brass_tacks
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
To all of you,
Lets add a new dimension to comtemplate...what about knowing YOURSELF before you take the big step?

Do you know how to recognize that you are jealous? Do you know if you are controlling? Do you know that you are insecure? Do you know that you are self-absorbed? Do you know that you are lazy? Do you know that you are a spendthrift? Do you know that you don't respect yourself? Do you know that you are too dependent? Do you know that you are too independent? Do you know that you are a know-it-all? Do you know that you take everything another person says or does toward you as personal? Do you know that you want peace to the degree that you will not stand up for yourself?

Everyone of us could come up with many more to add to the list. But if a person does not know about themselves, then it is an easy cope-out to say that... Well, you just have to live with someone to really know them.

We know ourselves to some degree by the experiences we have with other people. Some people even rationalize that they 'should' love and 'should' be happy with a certain person because this other person has all the qualities they want to find in a person. WHAT A MISTAKE !! This opens up another topic. But I just wanted to introduce the knowing yourself aspect of making an important decision.
coolmama
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
I agree about how you should know yourself.I always rolled my eyes at friends who jumped from one relationship to the next.Giving themselves no time to ever know who they were or what they really wanted.

I also want to bring up those women who completely change for the guy they are dating. They cant just be themselves!!!

Example...You are really and totally a country bumpkin.You love overalls,and flowers and sunny days.You meet so and so who is into heavy metal~and suddenly,you're MRS. Biker chick USA.
You throw aside all you love to be like some guy who dumps you anyways.
How about having a guy love you for you are too!!
I have never changed to please a guy.Like it or leave it.Luckily for me,my husband loves me for who I'am inside.

I have friend who changes with each guy she is with.I honestly dont know who the heck she is anymore.
brass_tacks
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Thats right, so maybe under those overalls there is a person that found out she loves excitement. But the life of a biker isn't all fun or exciting--especially if the biker can't find a job that gives him/her weekends and holidays off.

venture to say, there are lots of divorced people that don't even know the role they played in the failure of their marriage. It would be understandable that a person may not be able to figure this out for a long time, even after a divorce. But at some point, the person has to realize that they cannot get on with their life in the best way possible unless they have true closure. Any man or woman that gets involved with a person that does not have closure is asking for trouble.
organic_maria
19 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Brass tacks,
I totally agree. That is an excellent point. One must know thyself. These days people do not know what they like or dislike. They jump into situations without realization of anythign around them. Fly by the seat of their pants.
I truly believe now adays, people have so much in front of them they are blinded or just dont want to deal with things. Like that the commercial ' Easy button' Honest, this day and age things are so easy or made easy.
Everything is given to kids, punishment or consequences are rare because of politically correct ideals of society.
My parents came from War . They we lucky to have bread on the table. They went to school for education and religion in secracy.
Kids just dont appreciate things at all because we have done this to them. We do not teach them. We dont take the time to sit down and drill it into their skulls on morality and consequences.
Vivian, you are right. "kids dont have to do it..." i didn't want that to sound like that. That everyone is doing it scenerio. i dont believe that. If your friend jumps off a bridge you do NOT do the same. I believe God gave you a brain. Use it.
the topic is living with one another before marriage. We all have our opinions and we all have our reasons to decide what is best for us. Brass tack brought up a very important point. To know what you want and what your shortcomings are as a person. An individual. If one stands on solid ground and knows what she or he likes and dislikes and is open and honest to tell others, we would have less problems in this world. Even less divorces.
Now in some cases of divorce, there is abuse, physical psychological. Some people just make honest mistake, people change over time..etc..etc.. But i think for the most part, people just dont try hard enough or give up easy. And they say...ok divorce if i dont get my way.
Its a selfish society we live in...me..me..me...what can i get out of this.
I just wish people would think of others.
ok..sorry. i'm rambling now.
imani
18 years ago
last modified: 11 years ago
Hi! I'm 24 and I just moved in with my bf of a year. He has 3 young kids that come over on the weekends. I know that I love HIM, I know that I like his kids, but I needed to know if I can handle the weekend living situations. I wanted to do it now so that we can work on any issues that come up. I LOVE this forum, I read it constantly. The situations that I read on this board give SO MUCH insight into the potential pitfalls of a step-relationship. I've purchased books on the subject b/c of the recommendations on this board. I find articles, I try to talk to ANYONE who has been in my shoes. Bottom line: I do my research. I like to be prepared (or as prepared as I can be). THEREFORE I think its essential to live together first. I'm not committing to a lifetime with someone until I am COMPLETELY sure that I can handle it. (Luckily, I've had NO problems.... lets see how long that lasts :)

Living with a Man Before Marriage Couldnt resist this post

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