I don't think *anyone*, parent or stepparent or police officer or federal drug agent, has any "right" to isolate a minor from his/her parent, let alone for a week at a time.

If I were her father, I'd tell my ex to give my daughter back her phone unless the ex wanted to see me in her doorway within the time it took me to drive there, & if I had to make the trip, I'd bring a policeman along to maintain order & make sure my daughter was safe.

I aggree with the bulk of what you wrote NotMartha, and absolutely understand and agree with your concerns about your daughter's isolation without her cell phone.

That said, I also have empathy for the BioMom if SD runs to you every time there's a problem or complaint. Parent-child disagreements are inevitable, and if the child "tattles" to you every time, that must be, at a minimum, frustrating for BioMom -- possibly very, very frustrating if you regularly give SD the "poor baby" treatment or take her side.

My stance is generally that "what happens at the other house stays at the other house" -- with the exception of course, of events that could cause my child actual physical or real emotional harm. A 'normal' spat with a parent or step shouldn't cross over into the "my business" side, and by telling my son that he needs to try to understand his father's point of view and follow his father's rules in his father's house (even when he disagrees with them), we've kept the tattling to a minimum. Of course, DS knows that if it's serious, I absolutely DO need to know about it and will always be there for him. It's a fuzzy line, but we've been able to define it reasonably well over the past few years.

I'd suggest that in your talk with BioMom, you volunteer to discourage SD from "tattling" or "whining" to you as it is inappropriate, but also that you need her to be able to have her cell phone so she can be reached in emergencies. Suggest some other consequence that might be more appropriate.

Precisely Sylvia. BM doesn't pay the bill, she doesn't have the right to take it. She also has no right to tell her that she can't call you or her father who are the CP's. If that's what makes SD feel safe, no one has the right to tell her no. I agree with you 100%.

A hysterical phone call saying she wants to come home because she's scared or upset, to me sparks concern that there is a problem and it's time to intercede. That's not tattling. If BM doesn't like it that SD calls her father every time she gets into a screaming match with her daughter, too bad. It's not her concern who SD calls on a phone that BM isn't providing. SD is seeking comfort from the emotional stress that the fight with BM caused. She's not tattling, she's seeking comfort and wanting to go home because BM called her a b!tch.

DH and I had something similar happen the weekend before Christmas. DH and I went and picked SD up. It's happened many times before, and we've always gone to pick her up, no matter the time. This time SD was afraid step-dad was going to hit her since he'd already hit her BM repeatedly. Of course this pissed DH off, and he informed her of the laws in our state, which is CP's have the right to file a restraining order against NCP's on behalf of the child and the courts will maintain supervised visits if the child or CP feels the child is in danger of being harmed, emotionally scarred, or abused by NCP or his/her spouse, significant other, or friend. (It will of course be investigated, but generally the process is very quick because a minor is involved.)

He gave BM the chance to tell her SO that next time he got violent, not only would my DH call the police, but he'd file charges, the restraining order, and she'd see her daughter at the police station on visitation day. It's absolute bullsh!t for a child to be afraid to go to their OP's because something bad could happen.

Martha, if I were you I'd get with DH and research the laws in your state. If all else fails I'd call my lawyer and ask him/her to check on the laws. Surely something can be done.

In the situation you describe, she doesn't have the right to decide who SD can call when she's upset. Taking her phone away is interfering with her right to communicate with her other parent and the courts could come down on her hard for that.

I do feel that if SD were abusing her phone and not following her mom's rules, then yes, her mom has a right to take the phone away as punishment, regardless of who bought it. (on a temporary basis only) She would also need to allow her to call her other parent at least once a day.

I think dad needs to talk to mom and find out what the argument was about. (from her point of view anyways) and then talk to his daughter. It could be a situation where the daughter is manipulating the situation and the mom is frustrated that she runs to dad/SM to get their support. It's a tough call because only your DH knows his ex and if he doesn't get along with her, having a child that uses that to her advantage is a big problem. If she is wanting to get together and talk, then it should be done and all of you work as a team so that your SD knows she isn't going to get away with playing anyone against the other.

If, after talking to her mom, he feels the problem lies with the mom's behavior, then he should consider taking action and let BM know that taking away her only means of contacting him is unacceptable and if it continues, then he will seek legal orders to prevent her from doing so.

The answer to me is more communication between the parents.

Some really good discussion points --
And I guess it really boils down to what your gut is telling you the problem is, and making a judgement call from there.

- Is is small stuff like normal spats, whining, tattling, resistance to parental limits or manipulation? Running to Dad if Mom says no?

- Or is it big stuff like substance abuse, physical or emotional abuse, or emotional maniplation and isolation on behalf of the other household?

In my own life, my own DS would sometimes whine to the other household about normal rule enforcement, and DH's daughter, as a young teen, would pick a fight then phone BioMom in "hysterics" because Dad wouldn't let her hang out at the mall with her friends during their very limited time together. So I view the SD's actions through my own lense. HecallsmeMom has a very different view.

Thanks Sweeby. I can honestly say that I walk both sides of the rope. On one side I understand the tattling and general grousing of a child to the OP(DS-11), but on the other side I understand the genuine hysterics of a scared child(SD-13).

Personally I don't agree with any OP taking a child's only means of contacting their OP's (or 911 if needed), or with telling them they can't call their other parent when they're upset. To me it seems like OP is trying to hide that she gets pissed and verbally abuses her child. Or maybe something worse.

Everything in this situation boils down to a judgement call. As a parent would you feel comfortable for your child to be without a phone? Do you feel comfortable with BM taking the phone when she doesn't pay the bill? Do you feel that SD was hysterical because she was pissed off or because she was truly upset and scared?

Sometimes you have to sit down and ask yourself questions, and you don't always get the answer you would have liked, but it's generally the right answer.

I also agree with Ima that DH needs to talk to mom and see what's going on, why she's got SD's cell phone, and why she feels that SD shouldn't call you when she needs to talk. I'd also be requesting Step-dad's phone number.

I completely agree about the tattling. SD has tried off and on for years to use this tactic, and we meet it the same way each time - "If you have a problem with something your mom is doing, and it isn't something affecting your mental/physical safety, you need to take it up with your mom." Of course I can understand why she doesn't . . . that is what started the fight Sunday night and the subsequent name calling. Her mom can not hear anything negative about herself, warranted or not, without flying off the handle. SD is scared to give her any answer she knows she won't like, or stand up for herself.

If SD had been abusing phone usage we would have no problem with it being taken away, but would have appreciated some discussion first as we do provide it. We had no issue with her taking it for that night as she had agrued with her mom and refused to give it up to the point they physically struggled for it. If mom had a land line that was available to us to reach SD, SD to reach us and SD to reach 911 we would likely be okay with her taking the cell for the week . . . . with the exeption that in pre-cell times if SD was upset and wanted to use mom's cell to call us she was not allowed. It's hard, because she *sneaks* if you will to her room to call us from her cell when something happens because she knows mom won't give her the phone. we in no way want to encourage *sneaking*, yet at the same time if mom refuses to let her call what other option is there? Mom uses pretty much any tactic keep us from hearing anything other than how happy and perfect life is for SD at her house. SD has been screamed at, ignored, grounded, etc. for telling us of things that happen there. Not things like mom wouldn't let me go to the mall, but things like step dad and mom got in a huge fight in front of me, mom said she was divorcing him, he packed up and left all weekend, mom blamed it on me being "disrespectful" kind of things.

Mom has requested to meet with DH and I to try to get some consistancy in SD's life between homes. It was all I could do not to laugh out loud when she was talking to me as we have been trying to do this FOR YEARS and she has always refused. Now she is realizing that by trying to be her daughter's best friend rather than parent she has created a bit of a monster and is hoping by patterning her home after ours she can erase 13 years of learned behavior in a day. I think that may have to be the topic of another post . . .
We have had several of these kind of meetings over the years and they always go the same way - nothing changes. But we'll keep meeting and keep trying - it's just hard to get someone to see things from another person's point of view when they only see things in how they are affected, not how they may affect others. For that reason I doubt we'll ever get her to stop trying to restrict what SD tells us or when /if she calls us. She can't see that SD may be scared/sad/lonely, she only see's that she is being made to look bad.

Funny thing is, if they are out doing something fun mom will give the phone to SD and tell her she should call to check in. It's all about appearances.

At this point mom has not responded to the email or call. We don't even know if they are still planning to come over tomorrow. After the cell issue she will likely cry that we are being "abusive" again and refuse. So tiring.

Thanks for letting me get this off my chest.
TOS where are you - I'm in the mood to *fight*! :-)

I don't remember tos ever holding that a child should be held incommunicado (sp?) from either parent.

Lots of good thoughts & perspectives here, but the idea of a divorced parent taking away a child's method of communication skeers me.

I've seen/heard too many heartbreaking stories about parental abduction & such.

No, I also don't recall TOS ever supporting holding children hostage without phone access, but I bet she'd have something interesting to say about SOMETHING on here and put up a good scrap for JNM!

And I totally agree that it's a scary thing to know your child has no way to contact you (or anyone else) and could be a big red flag for abuse or abduction.

Cell phones should never be taken away, and children should never be left in a house without a land line - enhanced 911 doesn't work with a cell phone. However, she should be calling her father, and he should deal with it.

tos, you let me down...

However, she should be calling her father, and he should deal with it.

Deal with what? You lost me, but TOS my dear, did we just agree?!? Adn to clarify, I didn't think you would approve of the cell phone removal, but I thought you would argue with me on something!!

Different point of view...

Just remember bad new travels fast ... its only a couple days with out contact...Even if there isn't a landline ... a phone plugged in can still dial 911.

Sidenote: With my SS12 ... taking away his cell phone is the only thing that "gets" to him ... he could be grounded for a month, have to go to bed right after school, take away all his electronics. Doesn't matter what the punishment is none of that makes a "big" difference in his life ... but take away his phone and you get his attention. He would gladly sit in a dark room with out anything to "play" with... as long as he has his phone.

P.S. Mom pays the cell bill ... hubby bought the cell phone he currently uses on his mothers bill. We also have a land line so there is still a way to contact his mother at any time...

And the one time mom called me about taking the phone away ... she was told to keep it at her home if she felt that strongly about it... because if he blocked his number and crank called our house at 5:15 am again for "someone" to get up and make him breakfast he would no longer have a phone to be concerned with. :-) She laughed "how cute is that" well let him call you to make him breakfast then.

The father should deal with the disagreement over the mother taking away the cell phone.

From what I was able find, "a phone plugged in can still dial 911" is not the case everywhere. Apparently it is true in Florida - though I am not sure that enhanced 911 would work under those circumstances. If you have a disconnected landline, and no dial tone, you can't call 911.

TOS - he did . . . or tried to. More on that to follow . . .