I like the idea of eliminating peninsula and Fridge wall and enlarging the island. Right now, I think the island is too small to be useful.

What is your view out the side yard? You might consider putting your sink on that wall with a wide to-the-counter window if it's nice. That then leaves the Fridge and Range for the top wall. Fridge goes closest to the table. The long side of the island, including prep sink, is now available prep space directly across from the range.

If the view is not nice, leave the sink on the backyard wall, and either a) put the fridge next to it or b) scootch the range up in order to fit range and fridge on the same wall. The problem with a) is that you have a lot of zone crossing and dish storage is not as convenient to DW (ie, right next to it) as it could be. The problem with b) is that that wall will not be as nice to look at, if that matters to you, with the fridge and range making it asymmetrical. The problem with both of these is that only the short end of the island is convenient to the range for prep space.

tracie, I like your ideas. The side yard has no views so the window will need to stay on the backyard side - I should have noted that.

We aren't opposed to having a separate fridge and freezer, if that helps anything. I could even make a bump out into the garage for a small pantry or freezer, or...???

Would an 8'x4' island be about the right size? I just realized that is 4x the size of the island in the current layout! 4' will leave 86" of space to divide up between the aisles (1" countertop overhang). I'm not sure if there should be 43" on either side of the island or if one side needs more room than the other. Where could we put the wall oven stack in this layout?

In the current layout, is the island too small if we relocated the prep sink?

You will probably get more comments if the picture is in the post rather than just a link.

Is the bottom window there now? Can it be moved/changed? If it cannot, what are the distances b/w the window and the left wall, the window and right wall, and the width of the window? How high off the floor is the window?

Even if you stay w/the peninsula, that corner can be configured so you have a 27" cabinet facing the LR/DR area...just turn it 90 degrees.

Two corner susans aren't that bad...one could hold your pots & pans and the other your small appliances.

You have room for more window. Our kitchen has only one window, and it faces north. Over my 36" sink is a 68" wide expanse -- triple casements and an archtop.

My DW is to the right (same as yours). I stand to the right of it to unload and place dishes in upper cabinetry. I don't unload to countertop, close DW, place dishes in a cabinet directly aboce the DW..

Buehl, I meant to put a picture in the post and forgot - Thanks!

The opening at the bottom right of the drawing is the doorway to the laundry room. That door is 6" to the left of its current location to give us room for the bookcase and floor to ceiling cabinets in the laundry room.

A larger window is a good idea. We are looking at dark cabinets and light countertops and more natural light would be good. Skylights are also an idea we have looked at.

These pictures show the most recent design (including prep sink)and on overall view of the house - the kitchen in that drawing is just what the draftsman put in there.

If you can give up the uppers and have a nice view in the side yard I think it would be AWESOME to have windows flanking the range and hood. What I sight that would be from the family dining/living area.

OK, as you asked for feedback, I have some ideas for you.

I think that there are several things that I would not like about the design personally. Here are the points, and some ideas to consider.

1-Not enough natural light. Leaves the kitchen feeling very closed-in and clausterphobic. I suggest that to the right and left of your range hood, instead of upper horizontal cabinets, you add stationary horizontal windows. Or alternately make the window over the main sink a triple wide window and eliminate some upper cabinetry.

2-Island too small and blah. Here are some ideas. Suggest moving the second sink to the coffee bar area. Make island just a smidge bigger as to countertop size. Leave base same size as is. Consider adding more visual interest here. Using lower shelves/bookshelves/chunky legs/ and interesting counter like tile, butcher block, stainless steel. I think it needs to look like a feature. Farm table, French marble bakers table, contemporary stainless prep table. I think now it looks like you said. gee, I want an island, and just added something too basic.

3- No landing area by fridge or ovens. Consider only one lower oven, and counterspace above. Consider lower oven, with storage drawer below, and bar height counter. If you changed the pantry and oven position, you could have a longer bar height stretch of counter here.

Generally, I think the spaces needs more "breathing room". Not sure if this makes sense at all, but it seems to be packed full of solidness, and need some more visual open-ness.

Just some ideas...

Yes, juliekcmo hit the nail on the head. I noticed your plan last time and wondered why you needed so many ovens. Julie comment about the heaviness of the space is perfect because it's what I felt as well.
Can you make the sink window bigger and add windows (even small high ones( on either side of the range.
If you can get rid of an oven and add storage in that spot then maybe you can lose some cupboard space on either side of the sink.
Getting rid of the peninsula and making the island bigger will also help to get rid of that heavy closed in feeling . By getting rid of the barrier of the peninsula light will flow better from the sliding door in the dining room into the kitchen.

Thanks for putting the kitchen into perspective within the house. I'd start over. It appears to me that the kitchen has 'taken over the house'. (Tends to happen when you focus on remodeling one area.) This kitchen is outsize for the house. Also, your 'kitchen help' will be off to college before you know it! lol

I think you'll want EITHER a peninsula or an island if you stick to a layout like this. It's awkward dodging between the island and the peninsula.

I'd prefer to sit at a table and to have a *view* that's not of the kitchen. Maybe more DR and less Kit.? I'd like more Back Hall near the family entrance (garage).

I've lost track of how many ovens you have. Do you need all of these AND one in a stove? I'm leary of too many 'built-in' appliances; they have to be replaced eventually.

Could you move everything back towards the side yard wall a bit and have an island parallel to that wall, forming a divider between Kitchen and DR? This would be a bigger island; could have seating. The door from the laundry/back hall/garage would be out of the line of the kitchen. (You don't want a coffee bar where you stand IN a doorway anyway.)

This would all be more useful for me if the remodel included what I term "Back Hall" -- the in-and-out 'staging area' that is one of the most-used portions of a home.

I'm not 100% awake right now, but I'd like to briefly mention some of what I saw yesterday when we were talking ovens.

What I don't see is a good prep area. The island is really too small for that, IMO. The corners cut into the open stretches of counter that you do have, and corners aren't all that useful for a lot of tasks. You also have to make sure that the corners don't become inaccessible holes. I went from the G (three corner) to a U with island, so I had a lot of the same issues. The most important thing I modeled when I was mocking up the new kitchen was the amount of useable counter space next to the corners, and I fought hard for every extra inch I could get. In your plan, all of the open counter area is opposite of all the working area.

Question: Can the range be moved? Is the ducting for the vent already there, for instance? (It's a lot easier to move the gas.

I think the prep sink, while it fixes some of the three wall difficulty of the plan, ruins whatever utility the little island has.

At first glance (i.e., without testing it by drawing it out), I think it might work to put a corner pantry on the sink side, and a corner sink between the range and fridge, to have that area for prep.

Or if you do put a sink in the island, use one that is meant to be a prep surface as well. That means with a flush cover, a fitted cutting board, etc. Things that maximize the utility of every inch.

I've been working on a layout for you on & off all weekend (b/w picnics, family stuff, etc.). I finally have one...and Photobucket's upload function is broken! I could wait until later tonight or tomorrow to post it (assuming it's back up) or, if you'd like, I'll email it to you. Send me an email via "My Page" letting me know if you'd like me to email it to you.

It would be very odd to have a kitchen that size with only one window. Windows are not just for views, they are also for natural light, ventilation, and general non-claustrophobia. Unless your design inspiration is a meth lab, or you are agoraphobic, there have to be more windows. Not a larger window. If you absolutely don't want a window on the side yard, then the entire back yard wall should be windows, or close to it.

The island is too small. It is not much bigger than a serving cart next to a powder room sink. It will not be useful for much, other than a bit of landing zone. One of my friends has an island like that. Whenever you prep, stuff goes spilling off the near edge - and they're all near edges. Good luck cutting anything that rolls, like a carrot. You have to station a small child with a catcher's mitt on the far side. We made pizzas once. Because of her island, they were mini-pizzas.

Four ovens - am I misreading that? You must be a caterer.

Found a workaround for the upload issue...so here is the layout.

The dish hutch is a base cabinet with a 15" deep upper cabinet that goes down to the counter.

The shaded area behind the steam oven is a void space where plumbing, etc. could be housed and to give you access to it if you need it. It's next to the prep sink so the plumbing can be shared.

Here it is with the suggested locations of the primary kitchen zones labeled.

I think I'm with johnliu -- why does a family of four need four ovens? You'll have plenty of appliances, but not enough storage or work space. Even with beuhl's wonderful layout, all appliances have workspaces or landing zones that are at or near the minimums needed. You have workspace enough to cook for four with her layout, but if all of those ovens were humming with your catering-for-50-party, that kitchen is still cramped, even with the bottom wall emptied out.

That being said, beuhl, I'm always impressed with your layouts! You gave them everything they asked for, and made it workable.

As usual, Buehl has come up with very functional layouts. Word of caution though. I don't know about other models, but I don't think the Gaggenau combi-steam can be mounted under counter. I know the Miele speed oven can, and you could put the shut-offs, etc., in the pantry if you switched them.

Here is Bermudafire's reasoning about the four ovens.

I think it would work better for this family if the spare ovens could be moved out of the main work space. Can the stack go opening into the laundry room doorway? That way the bottom and right of page side of the kitchen could be used for baking while the top and left of page are used for dinner and cleanup. I'd also like to see a larger island sink, so that when people are prepping dinner and baking, both at once, the dinner people could use the big sink and the bakers could use the island.

The features that makes Buehl's plans work, especially, are the better work surface of the island instead of the corners, and the more accessible arrangement of the fridge to stove to sinks.

You can also use the bottom of page wall for pegboard storage, shallow, high shelves, and the like.

Just looked up the Gagg...and I think you're right, Plllog! I didn't realize it. There was a steam oven in a rental we used last year on vacation and it was in a tall stack but in the middle, with the counter height splitting it (i.e., half was above the counter, half below) so I didn't really think about it in the layout.

I don't have the layout at work, so I'll have to wait until tonight to re-work it, but I think it would work like Plllog suggested...switch it with the speed oven and put the plumbing in the pantry (although you will lose some pantry space on the right wall to accommodate plumbing).

I also originally had a 24" sink in the island, but it took up too much space on the left end where prep is ideal b/c of its location relative to the range & refrigerator. The kitchen is a little narrow to be able to "have it all", but I was trying to get as much as possible in it without sacrificing too much functionality. I was able to keep the Prep & Cooking Zones separate from the Cleanup Zone and locate the refrigerator so it was on the periphery and snackers wouldn't get in the way too much of those prepping and/or cooking. I wasn't able to do it with the speed oven/MW, though.

I was also able to keep the dishes not only next to the DW, but also convenient to the DR for setting the table and island seating (dishes for snacks/breakfast) as well as out of the way, again, of the Prep & Cooking Zones. The dishes are also out of the way of someone who might be cleaning up & loading the DW while the table is being set.

The cabinet in the lower right corner (opening into the Laundry Room door) also limits the island somewhat. Additionally, the space b/w the wall and the door is too narrow to fit a full-depth cabinet. if the Laundry Room door can be moved further to the left, you might be able to fit the ovens there, but it would be with no adjacent landing space so the island would have to be placed just right to provide landing space and the island would have to be shortened to accommodate the deeper cabinets. The other issue is traffic to/from the kitchen, especially people going for snacks, behind the island. If it's also going to be workspace, then a wider aisle is needed if there is to be seating on the long end...but that would mean reducing the island depth and adversely affecting the prep space on the left end in front of the range.

There are a lot of wide appliances and "tall" things limiting counter workspace....a 42" refrigerator, 36" range, pantry, oven cabinet, and a need for the 6" pullout next to the wall to allow the refrigerator to open fully for cleaning and/or removing bins.

I'll think some more about it later this evening.

Thanks for the great advice everyone!

We mocked up buehl's layout and really like it. The larger island is great. DW loves the seating arrangement on the corner, seems much "cozier" and easier to interact with each other.

Im going to answer a few questions and throw out an idea I had when we were mocking things up.

In the drawing, the laundry door is already moved 6" left of its current location and could be moved more to accomodate a full depth cabinet. The reason it was moved 6" was to give us a 15" deep wall of cabinets in the laundry room. Moving it another 10" (giving us 28" of wall space) is probably the most we would want to go. If we move it we could put even larger cabinets in the laundry room and take some of the load off of the pantry in the kitchen.

The window we had planned is WAY too small, what were we thinking! We can also put some high windows on the range wall with obscured glass. There is no view but the light will be nice.

When we were laying things out I thought of a way to possibly increase countertop space. We can make a bump out into the garage on the bottom left of the drawing. It could start 30" off the left wall and could have 58" of interior space. This might be a good spot for the fridge, ovens and landing space, pantry,???

We are seriously considering changing the 30" wall oven to a 24" or ditching it all together. DW would like a gas and electric oven and while the speed oven will be able to serve as an electric convection oven we are worried about the size.

Here is a visual of the bump out showing the maximum width possible without moving the water heater.

DW really likes the L with the larger island and wanted to see what it would be like reversed with a large window to the backyard. I put this together quickly to see how things could be arranged. I put the DW to the left of the sink thinking that side would be closer to dish storage (which I think is the biggest problem with this layout). I moved the laundry door over to allow room for a full depth cabinet but I didn't put anything over there in this layout. I really like the large window but I'm not sure about the layout.

Any thoughts?