Another thing that this thread keeps bringing back to the surface of my memory is that as a student (both in my early 20s and again in my mid 30s) it was surprising how many concepts were really difficult to understand. Many of these were those that seemed like the teacher was wading in nonsense until finally something broke through after much of the semester passed and the "Aha moment" finally hit. That is after several weeks of the same subject for six hours a week with direct interaction with both teachers and other students while working on excercises directly designed to get you to that "aha moment". That just points out the difficulty in teaching landscape design in short courses and especially in all in one comprehensive classes. You brush the surface of many subjects, but you can not expect to instill a great deal of knowledge in any of them. Classes like botany, geology, dendrology, soils, sociology, psychology, biology, and such were all taught in the usuaul 1 hour lecture hall twice or thrice a week format with some classes having a two hour lab. Design studio was three hours long three times a week with on going projects that kept students busy well into the night for their sophomore,junior, and senior years. Plant design, drafting & graphics, grading & drainage, and site engineering all met six hours a week with on going projects. There was a studio for each class year because we all had these on going projects that required the teaching and critiques to be done where we were working. This stuff was all taught through multiple projects that made us work through concepts and develop understanding. They were not taught in lecture halls because you could not get the same understanding from that format. It is not rocket science and it is not a gift. But it is a lot more conceptual than informational. While classes like geology and soil science are largely based on information which you can absorb through reading and lectures, design is not that way. You never get THE answer because there is no single answer. There are so many ways to get to a suitable conclusion that it takes having to go through a whole lot of excercises in doing things the way that you would not do them based solely on your own instincts in order to learn new things or potential pitfalls that you would not learn from going with your own way. In the end, you've done so many things in so many different ways that you can't help but to have learned to recognise situations and have learned a number of ways to address them. Those ways to address things are not off of a list, but based on experience and what you have developed as methods that you have become comfortable with and work well for you. It is still your own creativity and and style that drives everything, but you have more ways that you are comfortable with applying that creativity and more knowledge to go with it. The problem that most self taught people have is that they work within their own comfort zone. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it has a high limitation on it. That limitation is that there is very little outside influences in either recognizing unfamiliar situations or in getting comfortable with other ways of dealing with things. One of my teachers, Professor Toru Otawa, would constantly say "you could do a master's thesis on that subject" when someone asked a question. Of course, he would answer the question, but we also could see what he meant by saying that. Most of us stay within our comfort zone once we get out and do this after school and after interning. The difference is that we were forced into situations that made us develop a wider comfort zone. I don't know how much sense this makes to a lot of people who have not gone through this. I expect that those who have will agree with this and those that have not will find a pile of reasons why this is not as good as the way they learned (I think that was standard rule #1 of messageboard posters that I mentioned very early in this thread).

What are the 9 in cabinets going to be used for? They will be very narrow inside so best to plan ahead there. Have you considered making each side drawer stack 3 in larger and putting one of these on either side? I have one as a 3 in upper filler and love it so far! You could use them for large skillets, splatter guards, collapsible cool landers, steamers, utensils, etc. I was so amazed by the variety of pegboard accessories out there that I'm trying to figure out where else to put one. Or what about a pull out with utensil crocks? Someone posted one very recently Stepstool? I think the hood thing depends on how you cook and how powerful the blower is. If you cook a lot of high heat things (wok stuff, searing, grill pan, etc) you need better capture than "light" cooking. But if you have a decent depth and good blower strength, you'd be fine with matching the cooktop width. At least that's what I took away from reading on Appliances. Either way you'll probably be better off than most non-TKO/non-chef kitchens! I was kinda bummed I didn't have room for a wider hood at first. Then I realized even a modern builder special would pull more air than our 20 year old OTR MW, which sounded like a jet engine. I found a 22 in deep hood that can do 640 CFM on high for those stir fry nights and decided it was so far ahead of what was there that I'd be thrilled. And so far, so good. I guess that's one plus with starting with a really outdated, dysfunctional kitchen. Compromises are easier when even moderate choices are a big step up :-) Here is a link that might be useful: 6 in filler w/pegboard

Sorry- to long as usual but here goes. It is really no more of an investment in time than looking for cabinets in the first place. It is a question of deciding what you are shopping for- price, brand, or service. It is just a question of focus. Too many people simply shop for-plywood, soft close, a pretty picture, a display they like,a color, a price. Finding a good KD- there is no simple litmus test- Talent, education, certification, years of expereicne (see below), what computer program, hand drawing, rendering prowess, all take a back seat to work ethic. Will they work for and with you. Your initial concact with them in the showroom should be between one and two hours unless you get a hunch that this is not the person quickly. Whenever possible make an appointment first. IF that asking for an appointment is met with “just come in anytime” it may less than an ideal place IMO. Before you go have a clear idea of what you would like, how you would like it to work, what you must have. Consider any and all procedural aspects you are interested in: scheduling appointments, service, follow up, changes and revisions, overall timing, will they at least advise on portions of the design they don't sell you (color, tile, backsplash, etc.) Only you know what is important to you. Find out in the beginning, ask don't assume. But don't be in a rush to get those answers, just know what your questions are. Listen, most of your questions should be answered during the overall presentation. For any that are not ask them at the end if you are still interested. First off you want a good fit, it should feel right to you. You don't need to marry them but you don't want to be annoyed, feel inadequate, confused, or untrusting. This is perhaps the most important aspect and just takes paying attention to your gut. Your SIL may think I'm great but you can't tolerate me then I'm not the one. Ask for and check references-preferably in the same budget range you are in. Don't look for a perfect record, better to find out how follow up was, how issues were dealt with. Ideally you want them from the last year or two, say 3 to 6 of em (depends on budget how many they can give you) It can be a good sign that you are getting current ones if they say they must check with the client first, means you are not getting a cherry picked list but rather more recent jobs. (I am always surprised how rarely anyone asks for references.) Will they, can they work within your budget. A good indicator would be when they discuss what kind of compormises you are willing to make to what you want. Just about everyone has to either adjust the want list or the budget to get the two to coincide. The KD who simply says yes to everything is a red flag. A bonus : suggesting “brand A” over “brand B” when both meet your budget but they feel that for your specific kitchen brand A is a a better value. Are they willing to price multiple options including the next better brand just to see if that may work for you (this is not an upsell technique, just due diligence) What questions they ask can tell you as much as the answers they give to your questions. Just as in a job interview it should be a 50/50 conversation. How many kitchens do they do a month/year/week. It is pretty hard to produce quality work if overloaded and the business model is crank em out. Max is 25 to 30 “sold” and less than 100 worked on a year. Some places have a model where the KD has a lot of backend support for ordering and drawing. In those cases the volume an individual can handle could almost double. By the same token, only a handful sold in a year (unless they are doing lots of big or hi end projects) would be a red flag. The business model matters more than the size of the business. A KD with only a couple of years expereicne at a place with a few designers BUT with strong support from the owner and other designers can be better than am old timer working at a “kitchen mill” where the emphasis is sales volume. How much freedom does the KD have to do what they think needs be done? A small place with only one or two KD's usually means one of them is the principal. Whenever possible talk with the owner too. How long have people worked for this place? Do they go through KD's like water or do they stay? Denigrating the competition is a no-no. Do they take notes? Do they continue to ask questions? Is it a serious conversation or a sales pitch? Do they occasionally challenge you on your choices-IOW do they ask “why?” You don't want someone to tell you “you don't want to do that” just because they don't do it a certain way or don't like a feature. You DO want someone to keep you from shooting yourself in the foot not just “yes ma'am”. As Green pointed out there are not a lot of independants. Personally I believe there are advantages to having a commissioned KD (glorified cabinet salesman). They are invested in your budget and have all the tools needed to make it. Independants like architects are not always great at staying on budget and are not accountable for it. When I started on my own we thought that most if not all of what I did would be independent. That quickly changed. I still do some independent design work but only for certain professionals in specific circutmstances. Snoonyb wrote: ;Bag-n-box cabinets are dimensioned in 3" increments. Custom cabinets, those built in a locale cabinet shop, use every " of space. Most of what is available at the “box stores” are that way. Visit an independent and discover that there are many modestly priced semi custom brand allow sizing in 1/8” increments, often at no charge. Other rather extensive modifications are also common. From the upper middle price point, every brand I know allows sizing and other mods. (I have one that is capable of doing 64ths.) I've never been willing to be prevented from designing what needs to be done by size restrictions-at almost any but the absolute lowest price point.

Hi Frank. Masterpiece did the design too, which ended up having approximately 3 revisions before it was perfected. This was done during the vendor evaluation phase before we signed a contract. I was glad they understand customers want to have the design and approve it before making a choice on the builder. Besides, how are builders supposed to give you a bid without having a design to price out? Most of the vendors we met with did this, except 1 fancy-pants builder who wanted us to pay him $500 to come up with a design. That didn't appeal to us. For the landscaping side of the project, it was done by a company that is owned by an employee of Masterpiece, Ron Bond. Ron is the designer and salesman for Masterpiece so we put in a lot of hours with him and knew him well. Technically the landscaping was done by a different company, but in reality it was seamless and is easier for me to say the whole project was done by Masterpiece due to the relationships. I paid Ron's company directly for the landscaping work and he has good prices and of course intimate knowledge in the entire project scope. Let me know if I can answer any more questions for you. We are really happy with our pool, spa, landscaping and the whole build process (minus the city inspectors... LOL). There are 3 other families in our little group who have signed with Masterpiece too and are in varying stages of their builds (we got to know 2 of these families through Houzz - 1 during our vendor eval process & the other from this specific blog -- Houzz is so helpful!). I'm very happy for them and for Masterpiece because our new friends are in good hands with Masterpiece, and Masterpiece has earned my respect and appreciation so I'm glad to see a healthy backlog for them too. Good luck with your project! I'd love to follow you so please let me know when you get started.