I don't want to take any thunder away from my esteemed colleague and Brother
in the Trades - Bill Vincent, so I'll try to be succinct on this topic.

IMHO - your tile setter "dropped the ball BIG TIME" when he neglected to
mortar the underlayment (Hardibacker) to the OSB, but then there's a whole other
can of worms....

I'm presuming that your wood subfloor that the hardibacker is ONLY screwed to
is over joists - on 2 x 12's or something close dimensionally - spaced out
no more than 16" on center. IF you have trusses that are 24" on center - THAT
is another reason why you are experiencing a failure of the floor assembly.

MOVEMENT in the substrate equals loose tiles - IF there's too much flexion
in the floor, combined with the Hardibacker NOT being set in mortar too - well..
I'm not surprised that you're having whole sections of tile popping up.

This is NOT at all the way I learned how to do tile work from my Dad - 31 years ago.....

HTH

kevin

IMHO - your tile setter "dropped the ball BIG TIME" when he neglected to
mortar the underlayment (Hardibacker) to the OSB,

I'd be willing to bet that's the whole thing in a nutshell. Good chance the whole thing's going to have to come up, but there shouldn't be a need for a second layer of 3/4".

I really hope this comes up in searches when people go looking for "thinset under CBU". I can't tell you how many people have tried to tell me that the thinset was only a safeguard, that it wasn't really needed. This is a perfect illustration of the fact that that's wrong. Bigtime. Yes, the floor will last..... just long enough to get the installer past the 12 month warranty period. And then you have to pay someone else to redo it.

ajsmama, I really do feel your pain, but I'm pretty sure this will all have to come up.

If I could make you feel a little better-- I lost a job last august to a showroom here in town. A gentleman was building a cabinet shop, and decided to tile the entire slab-- 6000 square feet. I told him in order to warranty it, I'd have to Ditra the slab, and caulk joints every 15 feet in both directions. He thought that was way too expensive (added another $15K onto the price, materials and labor) and went with this showroom I mentioned. They went ahead and installed it without a warranty directly over the slab, and with no expansion joints. Within 3 months, the owner was finding hollow spots. He asked the showroom owner to send his crew back to repair about a dozen tiles, and then call it good. The showroom owner refused, saying this was done with no warranty, so the guy sued, and got back all but about $8K. now, from what I hear, I should be getting a call pretty soon to tear up all 6000 feet, and redo it right.

it could be worse. :-)

ajsmama - oh no! sorry to hear about this - what a pain. And discontinued tile too boot :(

Our tile floors are simply plywood screwed onto the subfloor - better than directly onto the subfloor I guess, but I still hear a squeak in one area of the kitchen, which, to me, means movement....which could mean grout cracking at a minimum? My bathrooms....sigh....up to code, but a disaster waiting to happen (two words: greenboard backer)

I was there when he started putting down the CBU (I helped put in the Nuheat), asked why he didn't put thinset b/t the OSB and Hardi b/c that's what the Hardi instructions said to do. DB and I had just done the bathroom less than 2 months b4. Anyway, guy said he's been doing this for 35 yrs (yeah, the wrong way!) and put plenty of screws in, it'll be fine. Then when I noticed the problems 6 months later he said it was structural, then when he finally came out (3 months after that) to fix it he said someone walked on it too soon (I made sure all the subs knew the schedule, to my knowledge no one came in w/i 24 hours, after he grouted I came in but only walked where he laid the red rosin paper on and told me I could go).

Anyway, the warranty period is long over - should I let him know we've got a new (continguous) area getting loose, try to get him to come back? Even if he won't come back, should I notify him?

How long can I live with this? I really am trying to finish the rest of the house, don't want to get into ripping up 400sf of tile in the most-used rooms right now. If I notify him of the continued problems, do I have any recourse to take him to small claims say next year? Or is there a chance that if I replace another 10-15sf tile now, I can get away with it for another couple of years til I finish the master bath (and have someone who knows what they're doing lay new tile), or even another 8-10 years, when we might be doing kitchen reno (new countertops - another installer screw-up, another thread)?

I hate to damage the 30sf of Nuheat that I paid the electrician $800 to install to rip up loose tile when the tile over the Nuheat is fine.

Thanks

Oh, and when he came out to fix it last year, he said he'd "never had a floor do this on him before" - yeah, right!

I took recommendation from a relative who is a terrific, meticulous finish carpenter. He said his BIL was available for tiling b/c he was just getting back to work after heart surgery, he owned his own flooring business that he had learned from his dad. So I guess his dad did lousy tile work too? I just figured if Dave said his BIL was good (as well as available), he had worked on very expensive (a certain celebrity was named) houses, that he was good. And I did call references (not the celebrity - no phone number provided) and of course they were glowing. Should have tipped me off that one of the references was for a lamniate job. Glad I didn't have him do our hardwoods - gave him deposit but after he did tile he said he didn't want to drive all that distance again (50 mi?) to do 200sf of prefinished HW. So he sent me my deposit back.

BTW, floor is 2x10 16" OC, doubled and laminated in middle of house (13ft) and supported by lally columns every 6'10". Load calculations supported ceramic installation.

ajs - Sorry to hear of your troubles w/your flooring install - Hope there are some out there that will pop in here to understand the aesthetics of their "beautiful" stone/tile flooring are just the icing - The "proper" install seems to still baffle some "professionals"
Thank goodness we have BILL V!

Bill V - 6k sq wow - now that's a huge area to have to re-do - didn't your dad always say "measure twice cut once", "haste makes waste", "there are 2 ways to do the job, the right way and the wrong way"

I just wish that I had felt secure enough in my knowledge at that point to tell him do it my (Hardi instructions) way or the highway! But at that time my experience consisted of having helped DB with 50 sf of floor. 10 years b4 I had watched as pro laid a very small tile floor over original unknown subfloor that had been covered with vinyl that we laid more plywood on - no CBU. We never had problems with that floor (prob. b/c it had 1.5" of plywood by then), so I figured there were different ways of doing it and they were all as good - hey, he was warrantying his work, right?

Jejvtr:

The proper instal does NOT elude those Pro's tha adhere (both figuratively
and literally) to the Tile Council of America's TCA Handbook for Ceramic Tile Setting......

this is pretty much THE manual that anybody that's been doing tile work for
any length of time refers to - It is updated every year, and is the "Go To" reference
guide whenever a particular method of installation needs to be checked for specs.

Ajsmama: Your support structure -2x10's - 16" on center look to be OK for
support of the sub floor - I think the only major problem is that your "tile setter?"
did not use a layer of mortar between the CBU and the wood subfloor -
just using screws will ATTACH the CBU to the subfloor - BUT... you really NEED
the CBU to be BONDED = 100% to the floor - this ONLY happens when mortar
is used......OTHERWISE - you'll get the Snap-Crackle-Pop sound effects when
you walk around on the floor area, and THEN... you'll have loose tile - guaranteed!

Call Bill when your ready to have it done RIGHT - He's got what it takes

my .02 cents worth

kevin

If I notify him of the continued problems, do I have any recourse to take him to small claims say next year?

You most certainly do. Matter of fact, you wouldn't even have to notify him of the problems. It would be perfectly obvious to anyone tearing up that floor that it was installed improperly. I'll bet he didn't mesh tape the seams of the hardi, either.

As for replacing the pieces for now, you may or may not get away with it for now. But guaranteed, about this time next year, if not before, you'll have problems again. The reason is that spring and fall are when homes do their most expanding and contracting, because those are the two transitional seasons. So anything that happens will most likely do so during these two seasons-- moreso in the spring, though.

"there are 2 ways to do the job, the right way and the wrong way"

I've modified that one over the years, though-- MY way and the wrong way!! :-)

I just wish that I had felt secure enough in my knowledge at that point to tell him do it my (Hardi instructions) way or the highway!

That's what I'M here for.

BUT... you really NEED
the CBU to be BONDED = 100% to the floor - this ONLY happens when mortar
is used.....

Not to contradict my cheering section LOL, but that's a very common misconception. The thinset isn't there to BOND the CBU to the decking. It's there to BED the CBU to take the vibrations out from between the layers that exists otherwise, causing at the very least, a shortened life of the floor, and sometimes complete failure. Someone over at John Bridge's site put it very succinctly one time a while back-- the screws hold it down, while the thinset holds it UP.

Thanks Bill - I think I'll tell him it's spreading. He also missed a few tiles in the powder room under the future vanity, I figured I'd fix those when I had someone in to do the master and then have plumber in to do master and the PR sink at the same time.

I was wondering if I should replace the ones in the kitchen now, or wait for the whole floor to fail? If I replace the app 12 sf in front of the basement door now (screw it down more), I won't have an unfinished edge (top of steps) to start pulling them up from when (if? wishful thinking) more start going. I also have about 4sf in front of DR opening and mudroom door that is slightly crackling (started with one last summer and I didn't tell him about it b/c it was isolated, I didn't want him to pull up another 25sf that seemed to be stuck securely and break them just to get to that one) - I could just keep going over from the basement to those, it would be about 25sf total.

Do you think the area that has radiant heat is OK (so far) b/c the mesh heat mat and thinset under/over that is "holding the tile up", even though the CBU isn't bedded onto the OSB there? The area running from fridge to DW, and under the barstools, which don't have radiant heat, and the edge of tile b/t the heat mat and the carpeted FR are OK. Also the entire mud/laundry room, even though the washing machine has gone off balance a few times and walked across the room. Why do you think I haven't had a problem there?

Thanks for your help, and Happy Easter.

Unfortunately, I can't even give you an educated guess as to why certain areas are giving you trouble while others aren't. Obviously some areas are feeling enough movement while others aren't yet. I'd have to physically inspect the floor to tell you anything more, though. One way or the other, I'd bet on the lack of thinset under the CBU being the main culprit.