If you're knocking down walls -- you need permits.

Thanks James.

Would estimates normally include the price of filing plans or is that something that's resolved after selecting a contractor?

Generally, the cost of permits is not included in in the builder's estimate.

If an architect is involved, it's usual for him or her to file the plans and permit applications with the building department, but the client is billed for the time involved, and pays all the fees. If no architect is involved, then either the owner or the contractor can do the honors, but the client pays all costs, and as as mentioned above, these fees are usually not included in the builder's estimate.

Hope this helps.

James

Hi there.

We are in the process of doing the same- and I have a slightly different answer- though not definitive.

We have one wall that we want knocked out. BTW- there are no existing floor plans of our apartment anywhere- including the Dept. of Buildings. All apartments about the 15th floor are all different, and the floorplans only go through 14.

Anyways.. back to the wall- our designer came, sent over his structural engineer, and concluded the wall was not weight bearing.. but always the chance it might be. In his plans he is building small lally columns positioned behind some cabinets- just in case. My point here however is... I had 8 prospective contractors come in, and 8 out of 8 said- there will be no need to get a permit, and why did the designer say so? He said it is up to the Co-op board to decide. Of course- if your renovation is major- you will need a permit. It really is a grey area. A good contractor, might be able to stear you the right way.

In regard to my apartment, we are still awaiting word from the Co-op board.

Thanks verysleepy.

That's why I posted the question. I'm confused! So far, I've had two very reputable renovations company come in to give me estimates and neither one mentioned filing plans and getting permits. However, a KD came by and told me he would have to get an architect and an engineer to sign off on the plans and then file them and get a permit, and it would cost a substantial part of my budget. Hence my confusion. Neither walls (the two walls form an L) are weight-bearing and I'm told other apartments in my line have removed them. I just moved in and will attempt to speak to other tenants about their renos.

I have not yet submitted my application to the co-op board. I first wanted to have a ballpark idea of how much this entire process (kitchen, bathroom, painting., etc.) would cost me.

call 311; they're great about answering questions like this.

James and Verysleepy, are you both in NYC?

I moved a door, and they told me I didn't need permits. As long as the work was within the walls of my apartment, a private residence, they said, I didn't need a permit. If I'd removed that wall, I don't think I'd have needed a permit.

Definitely, speak to other tenants. But mostly--call 311--they're great!

If you are moving walls...someone who is recognized as a licensed professional must responsible for deciding that they definitely are not load bearing; in that case, it seems as if the type of permit you would need in NYC would come under the Alt 2 category...which does indeed require an architect to sign off.

In addition, if you are doing electrical work, that will definitely require a permit as well...even if there are outlets in the existing walls that will be negated once the walls are removedÂ..and, you must have a certain number of outlets at certain intervals in a kitchen, GFCI, etc.

In addition, there are rules that pertain only to one and two family homes that you can obtain by contacting the Dept. of Buildings...but a co-op may not be considered as such...since you don't own the property, only shares...and it exists as part of a multi-family dwelling.

NYC is a PITA, as they have their convoluted own code, that can be (and has been) interpreted different ways even by the Dept. of Buildings (go figure)...which is not exactly BOCAÂ.so, you REALLY need a professional, such as an architect to determine what is and isnÂt needed.

Last but not least, if you DO need a permit, it will have to be filed for by an architect, because in NYC, residents are not permitted to apply. Hope this helps...best wishes.

An architect is necessary to subimit an application and plans for approval. Typically an expediter (well paid clerk) actually walks the plans through the building dept. A permit application must be completed by the contractor but anyone, including the homeowner, can bring it to the DB to get the permit. I used an expediter for that too.

There is lots of info on the NYC building dept website. Call 311 as Talley Sue suggested. Or call the DB - I know in Brooklyn you can call in the afternoon and speak with an actual plan examiner (the person who actually approves/disapproves plans) and ask all the questions you want. It's how I discovered how many lies my architect was telling.

Here is a link that might be useful: NYC Dept of Buildings

In addition, if you are doing electrical work, that will definitely require a permit as well.

I was specifically told by many people--the folks at the Buildling Dept, electricians, my GC, my remodel-savvy co-op president--that NYC's only requirement that applied to me, working within the walls of my own apartment, is that a LICENSED electrician MUST do the electrical work. "but I'm changing the fuse box" I told the Bldgs person. No permit needed; just a licensed electrician, she insisted. "I'm adding outlets!" No permit. "I'm removing an outlet!" No permit. "I'm adding CIRCUITS!" No permit.

I also was told that I didn't need a permit to change the sink and faucets or to reroute drain or feeder lines within my own walls.

I moved a door w/o a permit.

It was MUCH easier for me that I expected.

CALL THEM! Get the specifics from them. The folks at 311 are really, really helpful.

"....that NYC's only requirement that applied to me, working within the walls of my own apartment, is that a LICENSED electrician MUST do the electrical work..."

As I said, NYC has their convoluted own code, that can be (and has been) interpreted different ways even by the Dept. of Buildings.....this is apparently the same thought process that allows the architects to self-certify...which is why there are so many problems with buidling code being "misinterpreted", whether it be by accident.....or on purpose.

BY all means, call them...but,also get some sort of documentation that backs up what they tell you....and/or, document exactly when the work is done, via photos, dates, receipts, etc...

We did not do that back in '87....then, when we went to sell in '99, we were told a regulation was changed in '93...and we could be "grandfathered" only if we could prove the work was performed prior.

The "Big Apple"...gotta love it.

speak to the supt. of the building and tell him what you are planning to do and ask him how you should go about the renovation.
also ask him if he can recommend a reputable GC to do your renovation that he knows that has done work in the building this will probally cut through all the red tape
with arcitects , building permits and all the other things that you will find out as you go along. a small project like yours
plans, expeditors,engineers,building permit fees
can cost thousands
TALK TO THE SUPT.!

Just got back to this post. The supt. was the first person I spoke to. He was the one who told me that the walls were not load bearing and could be taken down, and have been taken down in other apartments. He did not mention permits. I still have not seen the other apartments, but working on that.

Ok- it is months later, and we still do not have the board's permission to start the renovation. Remember, I am in a co-op. We finally today heard from the managing agent, that they will sign off on all the electrical work, and knocking down walls, but we will need a permit. (LOUD GROWL here.) They also say that the city requires an asbestos permit? We are responsible for having the apartment checked for asbestos?????????? Does anyone know if this is a major deal, or even if we are responsible, and not the building? Panicking here!

I would think the building would be responsible if asbestos is found, but if it is, they may refuse to allow the renovation.

But they may want you to deal w/ the WORK of getting the permit.

Hi Talley

I got in touch with a city inspector today. He informed me that we indeed did need a permit, and would have to have a structural engineer sign off on the asbestos thing. He said that normally the architect knows someone that can do an inspection. We are not disturbing the ceilings, so I sure hope nothing shows up. They can file a "no asbestos" form that goes with the permit.

Can you believe, I still have not started this renovation? We thought it would start in April. I really can't believe how political these co-ops and managing agents can be.

Sigh

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