Don't worry, it's perfectly reasonable. Without an idea of budget, everyone would just be wasting valuable time, and it takes a lot of time to assemble quotes, etc.

As an example, even for something small (such as a "nice looking, decent size deck", as some might say) you have to quantify expectations somehow. As the "wish-list" grows, it always adds to cost to do the job, so folks need and deserve reality checks.

Yes, you need to have a budget and yes you need to communicate the budget. But that doesn't resolve a lot of problems, such as the architect drawing more than you want and then wanting to be paid for it. For one thing they will always think you're holding some information back -- that you have more money to spend than you say, that you are planning for a contingency fund even if they haven't bothered to tell you how much to plan for, etc. And, even thought they are the "tough guys" saying that they will hold you to your budget, the reality is that over and over again the architects do not know how much stuff costs. Plus, between all of the "experts" -- architects and contractors both -- they will mislead you one way or another, whether intentionally or unintentionally. Just read posts in this forum and you will see.

My own story involves a contractor who was supposed to provide an estimate so that we could decide what parts of a project to move forward on with the architect. The estimate was WAY OFF. But that was the basis upon which we proceeded to have the drawings done. It turns out that the architect expected it to be off by 20%, which was not communicated to US! 20% is a lot of money! But it turned out, once the drawings were done and sent for a real bid, to have been off by 50%. Result: a lot of pain, a lot of anger from the architect who drew too much, more costs associated with redrawing (apparently that bit about how you can just take out some portions of the project and use the same drawings is not exactly accurate). And, there's also the cost of the structural engineer, an add-on they don't often tell you about.

In our case if the architect had asked for our budget, a lot -- but not all -- would have been avoided.

Architects don't know the costs associated with the stuff you are talking about (e.g., moving bathroom fixtures) and the contractor who might be asked will give you figures that may bear no resemblance to reality. Their "estimates" are not "bids," the latter being a very time intensive process that homebound alludes to with regard to "quotes."

You might look at this post (there are others) to see why you need to have a reserve or contingency fund: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/remodel/msg0212513520296.html

In that thread, the architect MightyAnvil is just plain wrong, if not just plain off-putting! Plenty of architects charge, as yours is going to, on a percentage of construction costs. And, yes, it is a conflict of interest.

I strongly recommend this article that I posted (I had read it before hiring an architect and still had enormous problems): http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/remodel/msg0413560019182.html

read that article over and over again, memorize it!

And don't trust anybody.

Fern's words may sound rather harsh, but I have to basically agree with the premise. It's nice that he/she is reputable, but that's only the beginning. It says nothing of how they will work with you in the process, etc. Collaorative? Realistic? Challenging? Or artsy/arrogant that seems to have all the answers? (some folks prefer that handholding, though, so it's not all bad) That's something to talk in depth with the references. (also keep in mind that some folks may still hold back).

As far as the feng shui interest, don't they have specialists in that sort of thing? Perhaps you should invite one over first for a cocktail/meeting, discuss your desires, then use their guidance and proceed to the architect. That may save some drafting paper.

Lastly, I wonder if your project requires an architect for the whole plan. Perhaps a kitchen and bath designer, and a design-build firm for the other stuff. They'll be more grounded in reality right off the bat.

I recently was at an open house where I had the chance to "meet the architect". I didn't mention it, but I still wonder why he built the addition one step lower than the original house and exactly on grade (interior finished floor was level with the level ground outside). That, of course resulted in flooding under the door during the first three-day rain. No excuse for that. (We get those rains every year.)

Where are you? In my area $200K wouldn't buy what you've outlined, especially with the plumbing changes and new kitchen. Do realize that what the architect showed you he is doing for the other family is just carpentry -- no baths or kitchens; no new foundations.

If you make these additions will you own the largest house in the neighborhood? (not good) How much larger will it become -- double in size? Will the 'old' look shabby and small after the 'new' is added?

As Teardown Queen, I'm getting to my point. Before you do extensive remodeling, consider moving -- or teardown if the neighborhood warants it. Talk to a realtor about what your remodeled house will be worth vs a new house the same size.

Homebound, my words do sound harsh, don't they? As I said, but it's worth repeating, I had read that NYT article about the many people who end up with designs they cannot afford to build. I brought it up with every contractor and architect I interviewed. It turns out that my eyes were simply not wide open enough for this slippery process.

Thank you for all the insight. I personally doin't know anyone who has gone through a major renovation with an architect.

fern4 - That's a great article. I'm going to have my husband read it. 200k - 250k is our ceiling before we invest too much into the house. We have the funds if the cost goes over, but I really don't want to go over too much in case we need to sell and can't breakeven,

homebound - You make a really good point about working with the architect. My husband wanted to use this other guy, but talking to him was like pulling teeth to me. He was very analytical and spoke very slowly. I felt I was able to exchange ideas with the architect we finally selected. What that means during our project, I don't know.

About the feng shui thing, I think I am knowledgeable enough that I can educate the architect. I thought about having a feng shui master consult us, but I am afraid of all the unwanted advice I will get from him. He would probably recommend changing so many things that are not in our scope. I would end up doing the changes and spending so much more $$ because I am so superstitious. (My parents are a perfect example, but that's another story...)

I thought about using a separate kitchen and bath company, but thought we would get a better deal from the builder by combining the whole project. I hope my assumption is correct.

chisue - We're just remodeling our existing home and not adding on. Our original wishlist had adding an extra bedroom, but we scrapped that idea because of the cost.

He gave us some very rough estimates:

portico 15k
siding 25k
kitchen 80k
painting 10k
bathrooms 13k each

We went through it really quick. He compared our job to another job that is almost done. I went to that job site and fell in love with the work they did. The owners were there and had very positive things to say about him and the builder. That is actually why we selected him. I plan to speak with more references and speak to these owners when their job is completed. I am still very nervous about the whole renovation. I too trust no one!

Sorry for the long post!

Of course. When "it depends once we open it up" is the operative phrase, that leaves a lot of room for costs zooming.

It seemed to be a regular occurrence in the classic "This Old House" episodes.

How old is your house?

I'd still ask a realtor what the house is worth 'as is' and with the renovations you plan. (And what an all-new home the same size would bring.)

My house was built in 1974. Its a 3000 sq foot colonial. We purchased it for 870k and have put in approx 30k so far. If we put in 200k it will bring the value of the home to 1.1. That approx how much remodeled homes the same size go for here. That's why 200k is my ceiling. The new homes here are totally out out of my price range. Tbey start at 1.6 and are much larger. We thought of moving, but aren't impressed with the homes that are on the market and I am not willing to deal with putting our house for sale in this awful market. I wish I had the $$ to buy a new home!

In your market, I wouldn't bet that you could get what you're outlining for your budget, even without an architect. Unless you're making substantial changes in adding on an addition, you really don't need an architect. An architect's forte is combining new with old so that it looks seamless. You're really only doing a cosmetic redo, with the exception of the portico. Any compentent general contractor can work with you on that to be able to get you numbers. If you wanted to save even more money, you probably could GC everything yourself except for the portico--if you did the research to spec everythng out properly. For that portico you'd need a contractor/builder's plans. Not necessarily an architect. Find a kitchen and bath designer for the details of the bathrooms and kitchens. Moving any plumbing is pricy, and you have to consider how much you really want that extra bath space vs. keeping the cheaper same layout. Bigger/larger showers with multiple showerheads mean larger drains and bigger water heaters too. Big soaking tubs or whirlpools also mean larger water heaters. I'm pretty sure you'll have to upgrade the whole house electrical service unless it is 200 amps already and you have plenty of open slots. Kitchens and baths require a LOT more electrical than they used to and there are a lot of items that must be run on a circuit completely by themselves.

Doing all of that in CT is gonna cost at least 50-75K more than your budget, and that's with a simple no frills Kraftmaid/GE Profile type kitchen and an American Standard/Kohler bathroom. Post your current layouts on the Kitchen and Bath forums here for layout advice before even going to a builder.

mom -
Congrats on your remodel - Although some advice may not be what you wanted to hear I would agree w/a lot of the sentiments - 200k may not be realistic given the scope of the job. Live wire also brings up a good pt about electric 200A would be in order - & lots of new wiring - as well as plumbing which are $$$

The rough figures
portico 15k
siding 25k
kitchen 80k - + open to family room this price pt - cabs would likely have to be standard off the shelf type, mid range appliances (no sub zero, wolf, miele) - new electric, plumbing, flooring drywall will eat up a lot of that allowance
painting 10k - Interior & exterior?? seems really low
bathrooms 13k each - Seems quite low to me - bathtubs start around $800 not to mention, tile, fixtures, new drywall etc...

Unless you are in the biz and/or have lots of free time to research & stay on top of the entire project - which is full time & then some - I would not rec GC'ng yourself

Also, are you moving out while work is being done? 3 children, house built in 1970 lead paint will be flying both from interior & exterior (contractors don't want to discuss that one)

Good luck

Thank you for all the feedback. I am also getting skeptical with the architect's estimates. Instead of having the architect design the outside curb appeal features (portico, pergola and mouldings) AND kitchen/baths, maybe just design the outside items and use a kitchen company for the kitchen/baths. Then the question is what to do first. I think the better investment would be to do renovations inside the home instead of outside. The only thing is that our realtor said that the curb appeal of our house is such a negative (our house is backward to the road so all you see is the back of the house and garage doors when you drive up). I would also love for our house to have a facelift on the outside. The curb appeal bothers me so much that I wanted to move....how this whole renovation/architect thing started! I'll let you all know what we decide to do.

mother
There is a Home Decorating forum on GW - Posting a pic of your existing conditions over there will give you loads of ideas from some very keen eyes and likely some photoshoppers as well

Good luck

I'd sure think hard about moving. (Are there no *existing* houses you'd like; you said new were too expensive.)

You and your family are going to be living in H*ll for over a year if you go forward with the interior renovations, and I'm not certain you will really add value to the property. It might sell faster, but you wouldn't recoup the expense -- and nobody will pay for your lost year.

hi motherof3,

i wandered over from the pool forum. we just put in a pool instead of remodeling our house! do you want to know why----because of all the issues that you are dealing with! we live in a 1950's ranch and we need more room. we will not move because we love our neighborhood and we have almost an acre in the middle of our city. we had our house feng shuied a few years ago. we then built a garage with an apartment next to our house. our plans are to enclose the garage attached to our house and remodel, while living in the building next to it. you can have a feng shui expert look at your house plans before you remodel. my feng shui lady told me that we had a great house, but the energy was starting to fade because it needed updating. she looked at our new plans and made a few minor suggestions. the architect we chose did not have a handle on costs, so we had to go back to the drawing board. at the same time, our gc made it clear that we did not need an architect. after we finished the garage with apartment, we thought that we would easily move on to the house remdodel. we loved our gc, but looked at other contractors because he was so slow!! he did great work, but it took him a looong time! all the bids were to high, so we had the architect redraw the plans. we are getting closer, but decided to wait it out a few months longer until the economy settles down. for a major remodel, i would still consult with an architect, but for a minor remodel (not a lot of adding on or wall moving), i would find a good gc or even a gc who can design to. in the meantime we float around in the pool and dream of the day we can get our house remodel done! good luck and sorry if i rambled to much!

A catchy book title I've seen in the stores is "Curing the Fountainheadache", which I've not read but is one people might check out. It's about the client/architect relationship, written by an architect. (OT: As an Ayn Rand fan back in high school, it's scary to think people like Greenspan remain fans into old age.)

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