Sorry this process has been such a trial. Good remodelling contractors are hard to find in my experience. For our job my DH did a bunch of research, including legal history, of several companies. We sent out plans to 4 really high-end GCs, got 3 back, and only 2 of those were really worth considering. I was surprised, given the state of the economy - I thought people would be eager for work.

The company we hired came highly recommended by friends, has an excellent reputation in the city and is at the vanguard of the 'green builder' movement. Even so, they are not perfect and we've had some issues. But overall we've been very satisfied.

Stick to your plan and hold fast to your goals. It sounds like the team you described in item 5 is a good bid. Let's see if you can get another that comes closer to your budget. Keep asking friends who've done remodelling projects to give you referrals.

Yeah, it's normal. It's hard. I knew my GC was the right guy when his bid was three times the others--it included all the things they didn't take into account, like junction boxes.

Sometimes you can luck onto someone who charges less and does fantastic work because he's starting out, or slowing down, or has some other lifestyle reason for charging less. Too often, the ones who charge less are the ones who produce "unexpected" expenses that cause overruns. When my GC opened the wall and found stuff that the plumber didn't like, they just fixed it, and didn't charge extra. The quote included a day from the plumber, and if he did more work during that day, so be it. Someone who had cut the bid to the bone would have charged for the extra work. In that way, the guy who costs more can be cheaper in the long run. Also, the honest guys charge more. The ones who treat their employees fairly, pay their subs on time, are fully insured, etc., rather than bringing unlicensed or undocumented workers into your home, mismanaging money, etc.

Sometimes the bid is more just because they don't really want the job, so they bid the number that it would be worth it to them to do it for, rather than a realistic number based on the scope of work.

It's hard to tell which.

If you really think number 5 is the best, I hope you can figure out how to work with him. But do look around some more. Sometimes you have to do a few rounds of interviews before you find the right guy. Also, this might be a call to realistically reassess what the true cost of what you're planning to do will be, and whether it's the right project for your budget and circumstances.

Unfortunately, less honest contractors will bid something that they think you'll accept to get the job, even though they know they can't deliver for that amount, knowing that once your kitchen is torn up you'll pay to get it finished. And you'll pay more if you change mid-job because contractors don't take into account what all you paid to the guy who got you into the mess, and don't really like cleaning them up.

I wish you the best of luck in making your decisions, and getting what you want.

At least you have a glimmer of hope with #5. We could never even get a GC to give us a quote and we went the same route as you - referals from the trades, neighbors, etc. We ended up acting as our own GC and it worked out great but it's not for everyone and it's very time consuming.

Ironically, once we started bringing in our subs people who were willing to GC started crawling out the woodwork - I suppose it's like getting that engagement ring on your finger and suddenly your much more interesting to guys! Keep looking and perhaps get some quotes from subs yourselves to give you an idea how much labor is running in your market.

To be honest #5 doesn't seem all that out of line. If your are doing a full gut job you will most likely be updating wiring and there could be some structural and framing issues they anticipate finding plus drywall (insulation?) and flooring. Will you be replacing windows? It all adds up. The cost to move plumbing and gas is not very much (in my experience) so don't kid yourself about this being a limited remodel.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that if you are upfront with the GC and the KD about your need for smart budgeting and you get creative and flexible that you couldn't get something to work out. Good luck!

I'm very interested in your post and the process you are going through as I am in the "contemplation phase" of a remodel.

What I like about your descriptions is, though you are finding it hard, you show that you are able to discern among these guys and weed out the losers. That should help you feel good and positive that you have "people skills"--just not coming across as many of the quality of people you need! I'm soemtimes worried I will "settle" for the wrong person instead of knowing in my gut when things are right.

Are you able to ask, basically, what costs so darn much (or something about the breakdown)? It reminds me of another thread related to getting a bid way over budget--can the person explain, here's the kitchen you get for 60k, and here's the kitchen you could get for 40k--or something.

I can also relate to comments on price and quality. Dh and I have had various dealings with turnkey operations vs. the "cheaper" version and have ended up wishing we'd just forked over the money and had peace of mind. It's not always so simple at all, of course, as there have been exampls on this forum of ridiculous overpricing exposed by the vigilant TKO. As above, what you hope is that in talking with the guy or guys you get a sense of why the costs are there and have some way to run a reality check on it.

I interviewed about a dozen before settling on one. I thought three would do it. Boy was I wrong. The first three were no good, next three, same thing. Next round I did four. Like that. I don't remember all the details but they ran the gamut from people who talked down to me because I'm female, to crazies who made promises they obviously could not keep, to low bids from low quality guys, etc. Including the ones I never heard from again. Oh, and one guy who said to me, boy this is going to be expensive! (He never sent me a bid but I still get his company's junk mail newsletter!)

The last go-around I called four companies who were members of the local professional contractors' association. Two of those were right on target, both with their bids and how they talked to me and presented the numbers. I picked one of them. They weren't cheap, but SO worth it. They did quality work, had excellent subs, most of whom worked for the GC exclusively, and did everything just as I wanted. They made a couple of mistakes but fixed them without a word when I let them know. Also they went to bat for me on a problem with my faucet even though my warantee with them (one year) was up. And that included sending their plumber out to do the fix, no charge.

All those interviews and all that time and all those guys... who cares. It was worth it in the end to get a GC who did a great job.

So, keep-a-goin. Don't get discouraged. You found one good guy, and there ARE others. Now, his price MIGHT be the right price, and you might have to adjust your budget or cut back. But don't close the case till you have at least one other bid that makes you feel like you're not being overcharged.

Those last two we decided between were very close in all aspects. And that's what made it clear to me that we'd found the right guy, whichever one we picked. They both blew all the other guys out of the water with their manner, proposal and price, price being what was right for what I was expecting them to do.

Believe me, I could have gone with a couple of guys who were much cheaper. Glad I didn't though!

Good luck!

the whole construction industry is so sketchy. We went through a zillion GC's before finally settling on one for our kitchen. Two months into the project (luckily still in the design phase) he up and moved to Texas (we live in Oregon). He gave us a week notice.

Thankfully I had only paid him for a set of drawings, which we used. I ended up as GC for the rest of the renovation.

It took us 8 months to find our GC. It was 8 long and painful months and several times we almost gave up. We went through some of the same scenarios you describe. Namely....a guy recommended by a neighbor, a guy who was in a hurry and left without taking measurements and then gave a quote we couldn't trust because he had zero grasp of what we wanted, a guy who took copius notes, took dozens of photos, sketched things...and listened intently to what we wanted and we waited weeks and weeks and weeks and he came back with a quote for a design of his own that had ZERO to do with what we wanted. He was mad that we didn't love his completely different idea (including moving walls and moving the kitchen, etc.) and walked out. We were really discouraged after that because we were so sure he understood what we wanted to do. During all this time I was working with a cabinet company on designing my kitchen. When the last guy didn't work out, I called the rep at the cabinet company and asked if he could recommend someone. He said it was against Co. policy. I said, "Carlos, would you be willing to give me 3 names...just 3 names of people you know in the business so I have somewhere to start. So, he did...and he then reiterated it was against company policy to recommend someone, but if it were HIS house, he would call the first name on the list. I profusely thanked him and it worked out great. Our GC did let us do some of the easier work ourselves to save money and he has suggested things along the way to save us money too. We are almost finished and we first contacted him in mid December. So, hang in there because you will eventually find someone...I just hope it takes you less than 8 months. :-)

thanks to you all for your responses, it has been very helpful. i will continue to get a few more bids and keep you posted...

Posting late, but I wanted to let you know that you're not alone! It is very frustrating and discouraging. My husband's co-worker looked for two years before finding someone! (Not that I think your search will take two years.) But it is certainly not the fairly simple, straightforward process I thought it would be. My husband takes time off of work to interview people and show them the job. Sometimes they don't even come back with estimates or they don't provide references or etc. etc. Yes, it is frustrating!

Can you tell where you are located? Maybe someone here can refer someone to you.

You could also try getting some quotes directly from subs for pieces of the job as a sanity check against the GC quote, that way you'd have a better idea of whether you requirements don't match with your budget (meaning reduce requirements or increase budget), or if the quote you got is just really high. We did this -- we ended up using a GC for everything (including cabinets), but in the beginning we were contemplating being the GC ourselves (then realized we didn't have the time or skills to schedule and oversee a bunch of subs), but I had quotes for the cabinets (Lowe's quote--you walk out the door with it), the flooring, some window work, so I was able to figure out if the GC total quote appeared reasonable based on my estimates for what some of the elements would cost.

By the way, our original budget ended up being about 25% too low for the scope of work we wanted done. I believed all those HGTV shows that showed kitchen remodels for $25K! So, as you get more quotes, you'll become more comfortable with the pricing and get a better feel for what is reasonable and what is not. Also, an important question to ask is which portions of the work the GC subs out and which he uses his general handymen/carpenters. Even though it might be more expensive, you want to go with someone who uses a licensed plumber and electrician, a mason for brickwork and stonework, a hardwood floor specialist, and maybe a tile guy for tiling (although if the floor & backsplash are simple, the GC/handyman/carpenter could probably do it). I think these specialties require professional expertise to make the results come out well.

thanks to all for your help! i am in the SF Bay area. Would love some good GC referrals!

I'm in the beginning process of interviewing GC's myself. I have gotten two quotes, waiting for another, and waiting for some pricing from a cabinet place. I'm curious about how you are receiving your quotes. Just one number for the total or are you getting some sort of breakdown? I was expecting a breakdown such as, here is your cabinet budget, here is your flooring budget, your countertop budget, etc. I figured this way I would have a better handle on if I needed to cut back, I could figure out which are I could trim and which area I could not or maybe even needed to go over. When I asked the first contractor who came back with a price about getting a breakdown, he was very vague about it. I went to look at cabs with him and found out that I actually preferred something in a lower price grouping than was originally planned for, but I have know idea how much less. It all feels so secretive!
Any insight into this would help!

I would not go with a lump sum quote. My GC (who did an excellent job) gave me a several-page quote, with each category broken out.

Electrical, Plumbing, flooring, appliances, cabinets, etc. He quoted an allowance for materials which he based on the materials I'd already picked out -- I had given him a list of everything. He listed out each item to be done in each category, and he quoted the cost for those items.

Then he added on 10 and 10 -- 10% overhead and 10% profit. He listed out a schedule for the work and payments (no dates, just the order in which things would be done and according to that order, what payments would be due).

Everything was clear - what he was doing, what he was supplying and what we would be charged. If you're getting a feeling that a pontential GC is vague or secretive, move on. Find someone who will be honest, detailed and up front about everything.

I have this problem almost everytime I try to hire anybody to do anything. It took me 5 years to find someone to replace my front porch. We ended up giving this guy a lot of extra work and ultimately paid him amost $75,000.

Now my kitchen design process is dragging (started in October), and the KD says she is busy with others who are ready to order. I'm not sure how she expects me to ever get to that point if she won't give me or my kitchen her attention. I guess its because some people just OK the first design she presents to them and I'm a PITA client.

My DH says its because we never try to hire anyone to do the easy jobs - DH does those himself. When we try to hire someone, its always for the difficult/problem jobs that no one wants.

BUT, you would think with the economy the way it you should have an easier time. Hang in there!

We tend to think that, given the current state of the economy, contractors/kds, should be begging for jobs. Yet, I read an article the other day that says that home improvement projects are actually on the rise right now. It seems that more and more consumers are ratcheting down their plans to "move up" to newer, bigger, more lavish homes and are now choosing to renovate and upgrade their current residences instead. At the same time, just like any other sector in the economy, the construction industry has seen plenty of business failures during this recession, resulting in fewer "legitimate" industry bidders. As a result, we may be experiencing an unusual supply and demand dynamic in the construction industry where there's an actual increase in consumers looking to do relatively small home improvement projects (as opposed to whole house/ new house construction) and less contractors available to do them. (Please notice that I inserted a lot of qualifiers in this comment. It's just a thought based on anecdotal evidence only.) :-)

thanks lowspark. that's exactly the kind of quote i was hoping for so I think I will follow my instincts on this.

Although we're our own GC, DH and I need a landscaper because we have just too much on our plate and the spring planting season is too important an event to miss. So far have talked to four and have yet to find someone who actually wants to take on our project. Latest lead is the wife of our concrete man, who might work out and who would be a good person to consult on the new driveway configuration as well, but she was supposed to phone this morning, haven't heard from her, what's up? Sigh.

florantha - where do you live? My landscape guy did a wonderful job.

I had a recommendation from a friend, who highly recommended the GC. His bid was a lowest as well. Its been a tricky partnership. His communication skills are extremely poor, and I had a hard time trusting him for a while. He refuses to cooperate with my architect and is very rude with her - he even yelled at her once. However, once I started trusting him, he became more friendly and relaxed. He still does not talk to my architect and anytime I say "my architect thinks you should add a receptacle in the island so as not to fail inspection" his response is "who the f is she, I know what I am doing, she is stupid". OTOH, his ideas are very good. My architect made a few mistakes and I have a few regrets about the layout. I ended up spending $5K more because I HATED my architect's kitchen plan. My GC and I came up with a new plan and I had to pay $5K more.

So there are pros and cons of every GC. This GC's bid was the lowest by $40-$50K, a large number. However, there were additional costs that he had not accounted for - eg. tax & shipping on tiles that he was supposed to supply/order, some electrical items, etc. So yeah we ended up spending $25K more as a result.

Its so important to find the right GC. Ask #5 for references - he seems to be good. Best of all, visit homes of friends who have renovated and see if you can work with their GC.

Update to my fellow TKO GW's -

Thanks to all of you for your words of encouragement and feedback. I continued to investigate and GC #5 appears to be panning out as my man! We are in the final stages of negotiating. He has demonstrated flexibility in working with me on pricing and project scope and I have increased my budget - we met in the middle. Will keep you all posted, fingers crossed...

Babushka

how can you spend 40k on a 10x13 kitchen. That is just beyond me as neccessary! Particularly when you say the guy blew your budget by 50%! I am 35 and have been in construction my whole life. I have never charged over 12k in labor to do a kitchen in my entire career. No kitchen has ever taken longer than 15 business days from start to finish. I usually had 5 guys working each day on the bigger jobs. I used no subs and my direct employees did all the work plumbing,electrical, cabinets tile, painting drywall trim and paint you name it.

I always give fixed prices for labor and not matter what I did not change the price. The materials were paid for by the homeowner always. Most GC try to make money on your materials which really is the wrong approach. You are paying them for their ability to oversee and make you project go smoothly. I had a customer be wrong on stack locations of steel drain lines who was 100% sure he knew where everything was in his kitchen. I took out his closet after I ordered his cabinets I sell them for all my projects as a design order build business model. The closet I was to remove had all the steel drain lines from the upper level going down this closet wall. The kitchen was in the basement of a split foyer home. I had to hire a plumber, something that big I wanted a seperate plumber from my guys to do the work and be responsible for it in the long term, we had to break up the concrete floor relocate all the plumbing in the ceiling and the floor to make it work. Guess who paid for it. Not him! I honored my agreement that the price does not change. It cost me $3,500 of the $8,000 I charged him to do his 14x21 kitchen.

If I did not have that problem I would have made $4,000 after paying my guys on that job.

I see posts like this and wonder where are the customers that are like you guys that will pay these crazy prices. I normally make about $3k-4k on a set of cabinets that my customers spend about $12,000 and I make about $3k-4k on the labor of the kitchen.

that is over 10k a month on average. Why do you need to pay so much more money to these guys? Why do they take so long. I can remodel and entire house with all bath rooms and kitchen and all drywall trim and paint issues to re do every room in the house in 3 weeks! And I charged those customers $18k plus materials.

I do not understand why everyone can not do that in the constructon world over and over. I am nothing special I just know what has to be done and how to do the specific jobs myself if I needed to so I am never in over my head and I stay on top of the guys so they do not make mistakes. We know we have to work fast cause there is no way to charge extra so time matters to us cause we make less per hour the longer it takes.

I don't get it.

sorry you do not get it. project scope drives costs. so does region where work is being completed. i live in SF Bay Area, one of the most expensive regions in the nation. got 4 bids, all came in within 10% of each other. these are rates from GC firms with employees who are treated well, provided insurance, who i would trust to be in my house - not one man shows who disappear never to be seen again. most items purchased directly, no markup from contractor. negotiated rate for GC fees and some associated supplies is 28K, down from 41K original bid. balance is cost of materials.

Scope: fully permitted job. 11x13 original 1942 kitchen, full gut, no changes to footprint, full rewire and new plumbing to bring up to code, new inset cabinets, honed granite countertops, shaw farmhouse sink, rohl faucet, new stainless steel appliances except fridge, hardwood floors, subway tile backsplash. key takeaway:

-plan for the unexpected. i have not even begun construction yet, permits not yet filed and i already have $6000 in unplanned costs. $4000 because i need to install a new tankless hot water heater to enable me to remove a venting flue going up the back of a cabinet in the kitchen. Another $1800 to pay a lead abatement company during demo as there is a new lead law that went into effect.

lead abatement/partial demo $1850

homowner demo of some portions $0

remove flue chase, old electrical and plumbing $770

framing where flue was removed $200

rough plumbing $743

new tankless hot water heater: TK3 with new 1" gas line, filter and labor to install $4200 minus 30% energy rebate

finish plumbing $869

electrical $5,000 (still defining lighting scope, this number under review): full rewire of kitchen with knob and tube to include new panel in garage, 4 20amp dedicated circuits, rough in for all lighting to include pendant lighting, recessed lighting and under cabinet lighting. this number will reduce slightly depending on how many recessed lights i get, install GFCI receptacles and wall plates, install pendant lights, under cabinet lighting, install recessed lights, includes all supplies except pendant lights.

HVAC: $1350 cost to update duct work for vent hood and install boot for heater vent kickplate

insulation: $973 subcontracted

drywall supplies and labor $730 subcontracted

interior millwork and trim: supplies and labor: $700, need to match original trim which is not standard

tile: 0 am doing myself

painting: 0 am doing myself

granite counterop fabrication including honing, install cabinets and countertops: $6000 - $7600 depending on if i get modular cabinets or custom long banks of cabinets all connected

hardwood flooring: random plank to match dining room including materials and labor $2813 subcontracted

install appliances: $800

protection: (porta potty, dust and floor protection) $650

cleanup: $1148

supervision of subcontractors and job site, inspections: $3295

cabinets $10,000
appliances $6700
sink, faucet, disposal $1600
cabinet hardware $400
tiles for backsplash $210
granite slab $850-$1000
permit fees $1000
glass for cabinet fronts $175
paint $100

I am more convinced of my advice to be careful of what you pay the contractors after reading your break down. Be savvy with what you spend.

Just for fun go to Home Depot or Lowes and figure out the cost of the insulation if you buy off their shelf.

Masco owned insultaion companies that provide the insulation material and install it will do it for less than than the porduct cost at the big box store. Normally around $1.50 to $1.75 a square foot of the insulated surface in R13(2x4 ext wall). Do the math if you insulated all 4 walls of your kitchen you should be paying $552 for the entire room not including the celing. I am guessing you are not insuling all 4 walls of your kitchen. Maybe you sound proofing your walls. I bet you would have mentioned that as you are on top of what is going into your project.

Again please do not think I am trying to discourage you or be holier than thou I am trying to give real world examples of my past expeirence.

Example 2 - I built a 3 bed / 2 bath 1200 finished sqft house with no garage on a poured concrete walk out basement foundation with 8 foot ceilings using no steel columns in the basement I might add. I designed the house and had a panel company build me the floor, walls, and roof systems as a delivered package. I had the floor system built as open web floor trusees that clear spaned the entire basement there are no center support beams or steel posts in the entire basement. I built this house about 5 years ago with a Nephew for a family from my church. I did that entire house including site work, well and septic systems, foundation all lablor and materials for $120,000. It took my nephew and I by ourselves 4 months to do it. I had a plumber as a sub and a HVAC sub.
My nephew and I split $30k for the labor to build the house.

I understand that your wall plate is either rotted from water or termite damaged. It should not take more than a day for 3 guys to build a temp wall to hold the upper sturcture up while you replace the plate assuming the affected area is only in the area of the kitchen as described.

They are charging you a lot of your hard earned or borrowed money. Just be carefull. Any good 3-5 man crew should have your kitchen done in 3 weeks tops. One of the things that makes the projects go much longer is that each sub wants the space to themselves while they are working there.

I see the posts like yours on here and think to myself how some contractor is loving life working for the poster. It seems people are really savy on buying the caibinets tops and similar items but just get taken to the cleaners on the labor and the projects take way to long.

I did a buy fix sell 3/2 home with garage and basement and gutted both baths to the block walls same with the kitchen, added a plumbing for a future full bath in the basement requiring to repipe the entire house to bring it to current building codes for plumbing vents, replaced the water heater, tore out a retaining wall for the basement stairs that was caved in replaced all the windows to double hung vinyl with low e and argon filed with full screens in the house, put in new stainless hot point appliances uba tuba granite at $40/sqft paid way to much for it. Added recessed light and undermount lights, new garage disposal, 1st floor was all hadwood flooring sanded and re finished all floors, re tiled baths, re land scaped with new foundation plantings the entire house with mulch, Added recessed lighting in the living room. Tore out a 70's style glue up ceiling like mini drop ceiling in the family room in the basement. Put up new drywall ceilling with recessed lights in the family room in the basement. Put in new builder grade carpet through out the basement. I added crown molding in all living areas of the house. I replace all electrical devices in the house including all other light fixtres interior and exterior.

I did that in 3 weeks using a 4 man crew that cost me $700 for a 10 hour day. My total cost with labor and materails for the whole house was $32,500

It can be done. Again not trying to beat you up but give you examples of there are ways to keep your hard earned money with out giving it away!

In my store I offer 150 different stock to entry level semi custom cabints to chose from with 10 -level 1 granite colors, removal of old kitchen, installtion of new kitchen and appliances, with your choice of 30-42" wall cabinets including crown and light rails, also painting the kitchen area when done for $7,000-$10,500 for everything. Flooring would be extra if needed. I make about $3,000 and I use a licensed contractor to actually perform the work for me under my daily onsite supervision.

The cabinet style list to chose from even has 6 different inset flat and raised panel cabinets. 10 different Linen whites with glazes the list goes on and on. Now granted your cabinets will be from a much more talented cabint maker than these prgram as it is intended for those that do not have budgets as high as yours.

I do not believe the regional cost differnces matter her to great differences. Here is why, that house I fixed up and the one I built from scratch were both in Loudoun County Va in Northern Va where I used to reside. Loudoun and its county to the East, Fairfax, have the highest income per household rates, approx $180k per household, in the nation. It is every bit as expensive there as it is in San Fransico.

Be smart and be careful with your money. I hope your kitchen becomes all you hoped it would be.

thanks for catching my missing detail re: insulation. that is for insulating the exterior walls of kitchen and well as the entire attic space over kitchen, livingroom, dining room and entry way. should have clarified that in my post.

not sure what you are referencing re: rotten mudsill, think that is a different post.

Babushka

A good contractor, should come into your home, treat you, with the up most respect. Have a honest quote back to you, within 24 to 48 hour,s. He, should never talk down to you. He, should try to pass good deals to you. My husband, say,s if you respect people, are honest, the money will come and you, will never be out of work. That,s what he, does. sharaz