I assume you would not get the deposit back if she designs a kitchen for you and you decide to buy the cabinets from somewhere else. The deposit would serve to provide her some compensation for the time she took to do a kitchen plan for you in the event that you buy somewhere else.

Agreed. You don't get it back.

If she goes into "design mode" then you wouldn't get it back.

that's interesting. I have been to other KD's who are offering to come over and do a design for free. I guess every KD works differently.

I appreciate all of your responses.

Is what you are asking the following: "is it unethical for you to have KD #2 provide pricing for you on KD #1's plan?"

It sounds to me like KD #1 didn't charge you for his/her work and it is making you feel guilty to get a price quote from someone else. Aside from the guilt factor, did you like the design? or do you feel there was room for improvement on the design? If the latter, then perhaps have KD #2 take a stab at it. KD #2 is clever enough to charge for her design time thus elminating the need for you to feel guilty when you don't go with her. I didn't read the other thread but I am curious if your conscience is bothering you. If so, can you say why?

I am feeling guilty because I don't know what the proper etiquette is here about using someone else' design to shop around with. I was really only trying to save time on my end as well as KD#2.

I just wanted to get a ballpark figure on a cabinet maker that I liked and thought if I brought in KD#1plan-I would save KD#2 a trip to my house. And then if the cabinets were totally out of my reach, then I wouldn't have KD#2 come to my house to tweak and finalize a new plan. Does that make sense?

I am thinking out loud here and not sure if I make any sense since I am new at this.

Also, the idea of a KD charging to come out to take measurements makes me pause about how much do I really love those cabinets she is representing. But I totally understand that I am paying for her time as well.

I can understand pausing about paying someone to come out and take measurements if you aren't sure you will like their design/their cabinets or be able to afford them.

We interviewed 3 KDs for our gut reno/total redesign. 2 came out to take measurements for free and worked up a design to show us, but didn't give us a copy of the design plan. The third told us that we should first come in to him with our rough measurements and he would put together a preliminary design and get some cabinet quotes. Then, if we decided to go with him, we would give him a deposit and he'd come out to take detailed measurements and put together a more refined plan. We liked the this approach because we could get a sense of his design skill and his cabinet selection and prices without committing to him financially.

hi Sas95,

I like that idea of coming up with rough measurements and get some cabinet quotes to come up with a preliminary design. I already have one design which needs to be edited anyway. we have already picked out our appliances and we could add in our own ideas. But I would go to the KD instead of them coming to me.

Hi OP, I had to chime in here.

When I did business development in another industry, we would spend HOURS developing proposals. We did not charge our prospective clients for these proposals. When we didn't get the business, sometimes I'm sure our ideas were passed along to the winning contractor. That is called the cost of doing business. Most KDs accept this and so the cost of free designs ends up in the overhead/mark-up to their customers. I would never pay for the initial design unless it was a freelance designer who was going to work with my cabinetmaker to create custom cabinets. Don't feel bad about shopping that design around.

The second KD has given you "inaccurate" information regarding the first plan. The plan or info you received from the first KD should have a statement on it regarding how it may or may not be used. Most designers prohibit the use of their plans for competing bids unless they give separate permission.

A design layout is not the same as a proposal/bid in another industry. The design talent of the KD is part of the proposal package. If you want to work with another KD, you need to rely on that designer's capability.

You can make a sketch of the layout and give it to anyone you chose, but it is unethical to just turn over all the details from one company to another without approval. This was spelled out quite clearly in your first thread so not sure why you still have questions. The most ethical approach is to call the first KD and ask the question.

I agree with Stef. I think the best thing for you to do is call the KD and discuss the issue with her. If she gave you the plans without mentioning what you could or could not do with them, it sounds like she wont mind you asking her if you can use them to shop around.

This is exactly why I never give out my plans without a retainer fee paid. Ive worked on my own and with two companies....for the first company, we required the initial meeting to be at the design center where clients met with us designers and gave us an idea of what they are looking for, including providing us with rough measurements. Once we "qualified" them (gave them a rough estimate of what things would cost) and showed them our portfolio then we asked for a retainer fee before we would come out to their home or do any real work if they wanted to move forward. On my own, all of my clients were either referrals from a past client or knew of me when I worked for the first company and were usually people who didnt want to shop around but wanted to pay someone to do the all the work for them. I always came to the client's home, spoke with them, took measurements and because I sleep, eat, and breathe this, I could give them a pretty close estimate of what things cost. If they wanted to move forward, they paid me a retainer right then and there and then I would schedule the next meeting which we would go over my initial design. All of these meetings were at the clients home, I brought samples to them and we only would meet at different show rooms if there was not a sample or photo of something I could bring to there house. With this last company, they do both ways, just depends on the client.

Personally, I prefer the way I did things on my own. I was able to personally meet the client in the comfort of their own home, which I find it easier to discuss such a big money item. But never, I mean, NEVER, would I give anyone my drawings without some type of retainer payment.

On the last thread, there were some pretty mean things said about KD's, whether some were real designers or just KD's. Some interior designers dont do kitchens, some do...Ive worked with alot of Interior Designers who told clients they did kitchens, but hired someone like me to work behind the scenes to actually do the design work, especially with detailed custom cabinetry...so it all depends on the person. KD's do have credibility (look at Jennifer Gilmore...she does mostly kithcens, is listed as a KD, and is in all the trendy magazines)

I personally have an Architecture degree but fell in love with Kitchen and Bathroom design when I worked for a company during college....does that make me any less of a designer?

Bottom line, its wrong to take someone's work and give it to another person to use, even if its just for pricing. I would be pissed if I gave someone a plan and they took the exact plan to another KD, Designer, or Architect, whatever...then again, I would never give anyone anything without acquiring necessary payments, so maybe since she gave it to you, its not a big deal...but you should definitely ask her first beforehand.

PS. Just because a KD is affiliated with a cabinetry line does not mean they are any less of a designer than someone that isnt affiliated with a cabinetry line and is willing to work with which ever cabinetry line the client choose....some people can be so mean and really dont know what they are talking about. This really is a niche in itself because there are many variations on what type of designer exist and what clients expect.

I think that if you want to shop around and find the best deal then be up front about it when your meeting with someone so that both of you know and expect the same things...why be so sneaky about it? I've have people tell me that they are shopping around and either I make sure to lay out exaclty what they can expect from me or I let them know, hey Im not the cheapest designer around and I can't do what you want at your ideal price...this way they are not wasting my time and I am not wasting theirs. But remember, alot of people on this forum write in about the "little" mistakes their KD has made or didnt catch and some of them probably went the cheapest route...as with anything, you get what you pay for...those "little" mistakes have never came up in my business, then again Im not the cheapest option. We are the first ones to get blamed yet we are the last prof that people want to pay. This is not to say that there are not bad KD's or designers becuase there def are and they give the industry a bad reputation.

Im not saying the OP is trying to be sneaky, I just wanted to say what I felt and the last forum was getting a bit too long. Sorry to go a rant, but I'm kind of tired of the anti-KD or anti-Designer feeling I get alot of times when I log on here.

All the best with your kitchen remodel!

Thank you for stating that so well arch. :).

I don't understand why the hash out again...hoping for a different answer maybe? The people in the business have told you this isn't ethical..they should know right?

I personally wouldn't work with your second designer. She sounds like she's ethically challenged as well. She should not be willing to work with someone else's plan.

Nothing wrong with what the second KD did at all.

If the first KD won't let you shop her plan, then get the item list and shop that. Number of doors, what style, inset or overlay, cab construction, etc. That's what you really want to get prices on anyway. If she won't let you shop her plan or the items, then thank her and walk away. All the ethical posturing is just a way to prevent you from shopping around so that you have to go with her. You're going to spend tens of thousands of dollars on cabinetry, and nobody has the right to force you into a sleazy no-bid deal. That's unethical.

I don't think anyone was anti-KD because the OP is going to hire a KD. She just wants to hire the best KD and to shop around to find out who that is for her situation.
Pricing out does not mean going with the cheapest, btw. I'd want to have several options when spending this kind of money. It would be foolish not to shop around.

At some point, as frustrating as it is to have your stuff shopped around, to give ideas and have someone else reap the benefits... it's the nature of the biz. And there will be times when you will reap the benefits from someone else. When I was remodeling, I had ideas. I had them refined by a "KD" at Lowes (do they get paid commission or just hourly?) as we were discussing options. I never had a drawn out plan from her and decided I didn't want to go with Lowes, but I did remember her ideas, and when I finally drew up my plan, I used them. Did I owe her money for her ideas? No more than I would owe my neighbor for suggesting I move the stove over 2 inches. Once ideas get put in one's head, it's hard to take them out. And for the most part, where to put the cabinets and appliances are general ideas. Each cabinet place has their own accessories and extras that still need to be re-quoted by each KD individually, no matter who decided that an island should be there or not.

I constantly make backsplash designs and show the client the layout. They take either the paper layout (I don't ask for payment unless they are ordering tile) or my ideas and go to Lowe's and purchase their own stuff. Can't do anything about that. I work on straight commission. I win some, I lose some.

I wasnt implying that the OP was anti KD....I am saying that there are alot of posts on this forum and in some people's responses, sound have hostility towards KD's and designers.

I dont think its anything wrong with shopping around to find the best price, I do think its wrong when people take advantage of someone's time and work. If you provide a service to someone you should be paid, thats the bottom line. Yes, I understand that sometimes you when some and sometimes you lose some, but I think you should be up front about it and lay all of your cards on the table. Maybe its just me, but Im not looking to get the best of someone....even when I shop for things like furniture and I know the sales people are on commission, Im up front about it..."hey, this is what I'm looking for, but I am shopping around..gave you explain this to me..." I dont go in, have someone spend time working on a furniture layout, not pay for it, then use the exact plan at another furniture store. Again, maybe thats just me.

And lets be serious, shopping around looking for the best deal is just another way of saying getting what you want at the cheapest price and in the best situation, I mean seriously? How many people have went with IKEA cabinets just because they gave them the look they wanted and were the cheaper option, yet they dont even provide alot of sizes? IKEA is not as popular as it is becuase their products are just to die for, absolutely gorgeous...they are popular becuase they look nice and dont cost alot of money..Im mean, that's there entire sales pitch! (HINT, thats why everywhere you look at an IKEA store, there's an advertisement of how they cut back overhead to provide the customer with the best pricing) And Im NOT knocking IKEA, thats the reason why I bought my TV stand from there becuase it gave me the look I wanted and it was the best (cheapest) price. And its absolutely nothing wrong with that, but lets call a bird, a bird. Im just being real and honest here....we are a society that wants exactly what we want for the least amount money. And thats fine, just be up front about.

Using an idea is totally different than taking someone's actually work and passing it along...an idea is a thought, design plans are the result of someone's multiple ideas, that they took time and put down on paper. We dont know how long that took, and frankly it shouldnt matter..ideas are free, services are not, unless someone decides to provide them for free.

Its a pretty easy answer, at least for me. Just ask the original KD if youre feeling guilty about it. Its not like she/he can make you NOT use the plans with another KD as you already have them, but I think your are having second thoughts about it for a reason

Lastly, if shopping around for the best KD is what this is all about, shouldnt you want the second KD to give you her own thoughts and ideas anyway? How can you decide whose the best KD for you if youre just passing along the first KD's plans? How is that going to show you if the second KD is the best or worst fit?

Normally, I hate to step into the middle of a controversial topic, but since I've already jumped in I feel the need to continue (Yikes!). I disagree that it's unethical to shop it around as a general rule.

If a designer stated I could not use their plan to shop around, I would abide by that. Otherwise, I would use their design as the basis to compare prices across cabinet lines NOT as a way to get a free design. It's just a time saver for me rather than sitting there with 5 different KDs each time and telling them the design.

Moreover, since when did the first design you received end up being the one you go with? I went through 8 iterations with the final KD, so I don't know if he "won" anything. ;-)

When I got the initial design, I didn't take it and shop it to 5 cos distributing Line X. I shopped it to compare across cabinet lines and styles. When I chose, I did not choose by price (though it was a consideration) but by style and quality. However, if someone shops it by price, that's fine in my mind too.

I'm sorry. I still say it's the cost of doing business. I am not unfamiliar with type of complaint though. I remember people in my line of work complaining that other people were benefiting from their "great ideas". Honestly, we shouldn't kid ourselves. There isn't a new idea under the sun. It's all just a rehash.

As several others have said, sometimes you win some, sometimes you don't.