I do think this has been a fun discussion to read, and I'm glad that folks have been so gracious in encouraging each other to stick around and continue to express opinions as just that - our individual opinions to share and learn from each other. Melissa raised an excellent point in response to my post that I did indeed state more strongly than I intended. I also don't grow antiques or even roses because I deliberately want to be different from my neighbors in some sort of anti- "keeping up with the Jones" attitude. I am at heart a lazy gardener, which is one reason I refuse to spray, since that makes something fun into unpleasant work in my world. I like old garden rose forms but something that suckers like Gallicas sounds like too much work in a contained space so I look elsewhere. I also like modern rose forms and bright colors and stripes so I grow those too and don't bother to segregate the types except by vague color relationships and zone pocket requirements. Still, there's something special about roses that appeals to my own quest for knowledge and community and history and even individualism, with each rose having its own personality and story, both in my yard and in the rest of the world, that isn't equaled by other types of garden plants. Let me slip in an analogy for where I see some of the challenge and appeal of roses beyond just their beauty, since any number of garden plants are intrinsically beautiful. When I became engaged to my husband, he asked me what kind of wedding ring I'd like. Well, my first considerations were practical (as they are in my garden), and being a klutz, with all the ways I use my hands I didn't want to have gashes in my clothes (and skin) from a solitaire like a majority of rings out there. I also look wretched in gold jewelry, so I wanted white gold, and I like the intricacy of filigree jewelry just because it's pretty. We discovered that by these three practical and aesthetic considerations, we were already beyond 99% of the rings that we could find for sale not because I wanted deliberately to be different, but because what I liked wasn't what apparently most other folks liked. After searching all over two towns, we checked the teeny jewelry store next to my husband's store and wearily said the words that made most store owners shake their heads blankly, "white gold filigree". What a joy to watch the owner pull out a huge tray of estate sale rings in nothing but white gold filigree and tell us the stories behind them. Not just because I liked this style aesthetically, but there's something richer and more powerful about having a ring from the 1920's with an intriguing history behind it. I am very grateful to that jewelry store owner for maintaining and sharing those "weirdo" rings, since I didn't even know what I wanted would be hard to find until long after they were popular (just like my gratitude to folks who maintain hard-to-find roses). It adds something indefinable to the personal sentiment that I would treasure anyway in any wedding ring my husband would have chosen, to imagine who else has loved this ring and been loved through the gift of it. So that individualism and history and sense of community is part of what appeals to me about roses, beyond the fact that I think they're beautiful and surprisingly manageable plants to care for. I love that roses have families on many levels - that I can look at a Kordes rose and see aspects that differ from a Meilland rose, that children and grandchildren of roses like "Peace" or "Souvenir de la Malmaison" share important characteristics, or that rose breeders like Rupert or Barden can be people we actually know (at least virtually on this forum). And one more thing - the same can be said of daylilies, since they are every bit as diverse with a long history of some varieties, and I have probably 40 named varieties in my yard. For me, the difference is the challenge associated with them, hence my earlier response to Suzy's initial comments. I just don't find daylilies that challenging to grow, so they don't develop as much personality or uniqueness for me as the roses do in my yard. That sentiment and this whole post starts getting off on another tangent, and since this thread is getting long I'll start a new one on the idea of what appeals to us about roses. Still, I wanted to respond to Melissa's very thoughtful comments and respect the very welcome challenge of this discussion topic. Have a good time out in the garden Lola, and BlackGavotte, and welcome back whenever you want to chime in here. Cynthia

I agree. Don't by a Bosch refrigerator! I have a B20CS51SNS/02 about 3 years old. Have had problems with it cooling properly and now the Freezer evaporator motor went out. Very likely the problem all along. We had water leaking everywhere and had the motor replaced. Bosch customer service insists it only has a 1 year warranty, even when I sent them the print out from their website showing electronic parts covered for years 2-5. Then they said, well you didn't use a Bosch certified tech. It's all BS, they built a bad product and don't stand behind it. I will never buy another one nor recommend to anyone else!

From an earlier poster: It is true, that, left alone to reproduce naturally, eventually (not during our lifetimes) purebred dogs would probably become homogenized into a prototypical pariah dog - about 45 pounds in weight, 18-20 inches tall, yellow or sable colored, with upright ears and a long, slightly curled tail similar to the Dingo of Australia, Canaan Dog of Israel or Carolina Dogs of the Southeastern US. It is also true that if dogs ran free, the unhealthy ones would not have the stamina to compete, and so the gene pool would of necessity be healthy. I have adopted two "pariah dogs" although I usually call them pound hounds, Heinz 57, or South Carolina hounds. They are the smartest, healthiest dogs I know and yeah I'm biased but others agree. They asked me how I 'trained' them to follow various non-standard commands like "this way" and "wait" and how I can take them for runs in the woods with no fear of vanishing dog (yes they're chipped) etc. The truth is I didn't train them formally, we literally just sorted out between us what I wanted and how I would let them know. I would never have anything but a rescue dog and I would want a heavily mixed one too. 95% of selective breeding is done for appearance, period. Inbreeding is biologically disgusting in any species. Breeding for desirable performance traits (like a good nose and tracking ability) can be accomplished by intelligent intraspecies breeding without in-crossing. Keep up that grand-dad to grand-daughter thing and you will get diseased dogs in a relatively few generations...certainly within the breeding career of one fanatic incrossing breeder.

I have never brought a project for them to help me with, I was just saying that you do not get friendly service even if you just ask for a minor thing, much less you would not get project help. I only posted this to disagree that Joann's is friendly comment so one left earlier. I am sure it varies by location. But, just because they make a low wage does not excuse them for being unfriendly. It's not really possible to compare to a local shop, because we don't have any now. They may pay the same wage in both places? Maybe Joann's should look at the Colma store and see why it is so unfriendly? I am not the only one who thinks so. Reviews of the Colma location say, what I am saying. Reviews of your local Joann's may be glowing and warm. If they raise up the price of the bobbin winder to 39, then put it on sale for 10 dollars less, and they same bobbin winder is priced more like 30 elsewhere. It's not a good deal. I would only want to buy from Joann's if they were really friendly and really helping me a lot. If you are getting help from a store you may want to buy a things there to go with the project to support them for supporting you with your project even if the price is higher. I used to do that when we had a local shop. If Joanns was really friendly they would have sent me more coupons. They can tell I did not use those by the scan of my name. Here is a link that might be useful: Reviews of the colma Joann's on yelp