it sounds like she already has a court appointed guardian. you could try but they will probably want to auction it so they cover their a##.
over all if you can swing it it sounds like a good deal.

Yes, I am the guardian (and only child/only relative at all!). That will probably be the difficult part - showing the court that it is not a conflict of interest.

Curious thought about the auction - no one had mentioned that before... when you say "they will probably want to auction it so they cover their a##", who are you thinking is "they"? The court, bank or guardian?

Thanks for you input --- this is likely to be sticky and risky on many levels ...

My main concern --- this friggin market. Will it sell??

What market?

When my mother's physical condition required that she could no longer live at her home, I took over paying her bills and handling her finances. Do you have sisters and brothers? Could the family handle her affairs?

It seems like it might be a problem, if and when she needs to go on Medicaid -- the fact that you own the home or profitted from it. The states have different rules and I know that there is a period of time that they look back into her financial records.

It seems that your mother could sell the home to you as long as the mortgage got paid, but I'm not sure how much has to be cleared by the court.
Good luck
Susan

I would suggest you spend a few $$ with a lawyer specializing in elder law. We just had all three living parents pass away since February. My stepmother was in the nursing home for a while, and my MIL was in there over a year. There are many ins and outs of Medicaid,etc. Unless you know all about so-called Miller trusts, you haven't heard it all. Do a google search about that.

A lawyer told my SIL that although the Medicaid could go after the house after decease of elderly person, in our state that is very rare. Only sort of helpful.

We have gone over and over the same scenario you are playing in your head, and so far, with us on a very limited income, we're not willing to risk anything in this market, which isn't that bad really where we are, just too risky for our situation, retired, fixed income.

I'm the only living relative. Lucky me. I've been handling the guardianship duties for a year now. What A LOT of work! OMG - I don't wish it on anyone - especially to do on your own.

I figure that if the court approves the sale that Medicaid can't touch it. And, I'm hoping they can't look into my private records to see what my finances are ... who knows - but I'm counting on the court approval to cover it. I'll ask my Medicaid planning attorney - though he was the one to suggest this ....

What market --- why the fabulous seller's market, of course! :-) NOT.

That's really my question - in this market (or lack there-of), would you guys welcome such an opportunity or pass?

I think the question about what market meant where are you?

What I read says that nationwide RE values are down 15% from mid-2006 highs but have another 10% drop ahead -- along with lot if inventory to sell off. (For instance Miami has over five years' worth of inventory.)

Could you get almost as good a deal on another property and avoid the legal entanglement?

What market --- why the fabulous seller's market, of course! :-) NOT.

That's really my question - in this market (or lack there-of), would you guys welcome such an opportunity or pass?

The reason for the question is to produce helpful answers. I actually live in a seller's market. There are many areas of the country that are still seller markets. There are more areas that are neutral markets. There are also buyer markets and dead markets.

Once again it is difficult to answer your question without knowing a general "where".

From what you are posting in your main post there is no market where you are. You said there were 3 for sale, none have sold so far. It's sounding pretty iffy to me.

How bad is the place? Can you get away with some reno's such as paint, counter tops, maybe carpet? You said you would be able to get people to help you if you bought it, will they help you do some work now?

What I would suggest is to get other opinions on what to do with "dolling it up". Can you take some pictures and put them in an album then post the link here? Depending on your market, it might not need everything your friend is suggesting.

The problem with waiting to buy it if it doesn't sell is that someone else might get it, then what? It sounds like your mother needs all of the money she can get from the sale, that would be the route I took.

FWIW, I wouldn't work with a friend. What are you going to do if this friend doesn't advertise the place or you find out they are under or over pricing it? Do a search here, there are more then enough posts from sellers/buyers that have worked with friends & it ruined the friendship.

Depending on where you are, you might need an agent that advertises on realtor.com. Do you know if your friend pays for enhanced listings?

Good luck. Doesn't sound like you have an easy decision. As was mentioned, if you profit from the sale, you might get in trouble if you don't put what was made from the sale back into your mothers care, IMO, it is not something I would play around with. I would do as much as I could now to make it appealing then sell it.

I strongly encourage you to talk to an elder care lawyer AND the folks at Medicaid (anonymously).

My mom had a house. She went into a nursing home in 1989. One year later, sisters and I sold the house for her. Using her other money along with the house proceeds, we paid for the nursing home until she had ONLY $2000 left in assets. Then AND ONLY THEN did Medicaid kick in. And once she was on Medicaid, we had to prove quarterly that her assets were still $2000 or less.

I don't know if Medicaid will help your mom AT ALL if she still has the house as an asset or the potential proceeds from the sale of a house. My next comment is not meant with any offense intended, but I'd be more concerned that your mom has Medicaid eligibility as opposed to you being able to buy her house and flip it for a profit.

oh gosh - sorry xamsx - thought you were giving me a little tongue-n-cheek. The townhouse is in a continuously growing but established community on Florida's Space Coast. Called Suntree to be specific. There are several individual communities (condo's, large SFH, etc) but, I believe, all are still under the Master Community.

I don't think our area is actually dead - but it looks that way from my local. REA says things are selling - but taking a long time and needing significan price reductions. Guess we are having a tough time taking a few steps back after the market explosion a year+ ago. How do you really find the marketability of an area? I've relied on my REA - as he's just been an increadible personal coach for me over the years...

Oh - and chisue - I'm not really in the market for finding any real estate deals. I'd only do this because of it being my mother's home and thinking it's a better deal than I could get elsewhere. Maybe I'm very wrong in that assumption with the market. I'd be willing to take my 4 weeks vacation and work very, very hard to fix her place up to sell, make a profit that could help alleviate some of the costs that mom will certainly cause me in the future. She's quite young and the guardianship duties, and attorney fees, will likely cost me an easy $50K before she's ready to assume some federal assistance! If I don't do this deal, and make the anticipated profit, I'm considering surrendering guardianship. I just can't (or won't) afford it over the long haul. I'm ready to apply to PA school in hopes of establishing a second career. I might not be able to contribute the time or costs for continuing guardianship if I actually get accepted. Sigh.

I actually retain two attorneys at this time: a Guardianship attorney and a very experienced Elder Care/Medicaid Planning attorney. I feel that I have that angle *covered* - we have all spoken and they both believe that, if the house does not sell (and it likely will not prior to mom running out of savings) that can petition the court for purchase vs. allowing it to be forclosed/lost. They both agree that I need to have some good supporting documentation to get the rather difficult guardianship judge to grant approval - but they believe the rational is there. Just up to me if I actually want to go that direction and take the risk on myself.

My REA is not a "friend" but became a personal "coach" after handing another transaction and worked together in several networking and charity events. I am not overly concerned with regard to his RE abilities and/or our relationship.

My REA (and two other's that I have contacted and viewed the home under requirement from the court/judge) have said that simple rework like paint and carpet is a total waist of effort. The place is a wreck and, as one said, "you can't polish a turd". It is truly a handy man special. I, luckily, have a crew/family that is sincerely interested in helping me improve the property correctly in hopes of making a profit. What none of us know is if the effort is worth it IN THIS MARKET. Just curious if you all would take a risk in the arena of "flipping" this particular property.

I honestly thank all of you for your concern and advise with regard to entering something that might bite me (or my mom) in the arse. It has taken a lot of time, effort, energy and cash to find all these details on my own. I've tapped many resources - and found several that are FREE that have been very helpful - including public guardians, alzheimers & daycare groups, family run ALFs, physicians and their associates (PA & RNs), etc. There are some amazing people out there - overworked & underpaid - and willing to help. It just seems to have taken an ungodly amount of time finding these people!

As an investor, my concern would be can I hold it for the long term. If it doesn't sell, will it break you to hold the property as a rental or until it does sell? I don't know your area of Florida, but I do see good (emotional ) places do sell. If you can make it turnkey for low cost, it may work for you. You also mention working towards a second career, do you have the time to do this?

I don't know about other states, but in CA you can do a quick claim deed from one relative to another. Please ask a RE lawyer about this procedure in your state.

oh gosh - sorry xamsx - thought you were giving me a little tongue-n-cheek. The townhouse is in a continuously growing but established community on Florida's Space Coast. Called Suntree to be specific. There are several individual communities (condo's, large SFH, etc) but, I believe, all are still under the Master Community.

Ah. Maybe I should have said "which market"? I apologize.

As far as the Florida market... I have been hunting a condo on the waterfront for a few months now. The prices in Florida are crashing. The waterfront is hanging tough, but I've recently come across a number of walk-out beach front units at just a tad over 120 sq ft. I am only interested in beach front at this point in time because why should I settle for less? One block in will not do it for me. There is a LOT of inventory, so why should I have to settle for less than perfect in the perfect location? I think my poor attitude may be what a lot of folks in Florida are contending with now to try and sell a condo or townhouse.

Really and truly investigate what is selling now, at what price point, and how far the drop has been in the last six months. Add together your rehab costs, the amount of time it will take and factor in the dropping prices. If something is selling at $175K now, and it will take you six months to rehab, do you honestly think it will still be selling for $175K in six months? My crystal ball is hazy, but I am betting "nope" (really betting because I am looking to buy at rock bottom). If your crystal ball says prices will start to recover in a year, and you can hold, then it may well be in your best financial interest to go for it.

I was in your position -- only child -- when my mother became unale to live in her own home. My mom had put my signature onto her checking account years before when she was well. When she was unable to take care of her finances, I just wrote checks for her and deposited her checks for her. There was never any court involvement (of course, I didn't need to sell her home at that time)

I'm thinking about my own estate planning. I do have the will & power of attorney set up so my daughter can step in when necessary. What I'd like to avoid is the high legal fees that you have mentioned that you are incurring -- I guess that involves the court "overseeing" what you do as guardian. Thanks for bringing this up -- I guess it's another topic I have for my attorney when I need to make another appointment.
Susan

Susan -- just in case you're checking this thread again ....

I believe that most of my costs are directly realted to the Guardianship. There's a crap load of reports that, automatically, must be filed to the courts annually. I am approved to pay myself an hourly wage for the work, and charge for mileage, but the work involved to track this (and the low hourly wage approved) doesn't really make it worth while. And any time I need to perform some significant activity, I need to petition the courts (i.e. sell any of her assets or make major change in her living arrangements). I do not believe I would have had near the headache if I had just left it at Power of Attorney. Course, the attorney I sought advice from was very suspicious of the POA - stating that if my mom got a *wild hair* she could withdrawl the POA. I have a bad feeling about the whole matter and now, after having so many difficulties (and seeing the bills), feel that I was (or am being) taken advantage of... my mom was too far gone to ever understand POA, let alone be able to figure out how to recend (sp?) it..... Definately talk to your lawyer about it though!

xamsx -- we have a gulf-front condo (12000 SF) on Fort Myers Beach. Two and half years ago our next door neighbor sold for $750,000 in three days! They are now going in the mid to high 500's. Unbelievable. We are happy though, because our taxes dropped significantly.

We are having a very good year getting our place rented as well.

I'm confused about something and please forgive my ignorance about elder law and medicaid. Is the reason you can't just buy her condo for the price of what's owed on the mortgage because you are her guardian? I understand that when qualifying for medicaid, there must be few to no assets, but I don't understand why you aren't allowed to buy the condo to prevent foreclosure.

"Is the reason you can't just buy her condo for the price of what's owed on the mortgage because you are her guardian?"

BINGO! As guardian, I must act in a fiduciary manner = and my buying for what is owed (which is less than the actual worth) would not be considered acting in her best interest. Also, the Judge has to approve the sale (part of normal guardian requirments) and it would appear a "conflict of interest" for me to purchase it at ANY price.... Wish I would have known the ins-and-outs of the legal aspects of guardianship before I petitioned for it! A real nightmare. Which, if the Ward had been difficult, would have been a life-saver. But she's quite compliant these days....

funkill:
Thanks for the information. I guess I was very lucky that my mom bad just put my name on her bank accounts & I was a guardian with no court involvement. I'd like to set that up for my own kids, when the day arrives.

Just out of curiosity, could you possibly cancel your guardianship, if your mom signed legal documents. Since you are in the same situation as I was (only child), it seems like it would be much easier for you -- not to have to file legal papers for decisions that you make in her behalf.
Good luck
Susan

Susan- yes, I can *surrender* my guardianship but it is another legal proceeding and the Judge would have to bestow another guardian. So the judge would appoint either a Professional Guardian (who would probably not accept my mom since she has no way to pay for the Professional) or a Public one (of which there is one in the county - serving hundreds of indigent). If I surrender, I have absolutely no formal say in her care - which means a professional guardian could place her in a *hell hole* to find enough funds to pay her fees and a Public one would likely not give her any personalized attention... There's nothing my mom can sign - for me to be granted Plenary Guardianship by the court, my mom had to first be found Incompetent. This has been quiet an education for me. A costly one!
Good luck to you. I also have been contemplating how to get this all in order for myself (for when the time comes). Worse yet, I'm single with no kids ... who the heck is going to watch out for me when I loose my mind??? Oh wait, I've already lost my mind! Cheers.

susana, do a google search for power of attorney and your state. There should be forms online

funkill-"If I surrender, I have absolutely no formal say in her care - which means a professional guardian could place her in a *hell hole* to find enough funds to pay her fees and a Public one would likely not give her any personalized attention... There's nothing my mom can sign - for me to be granted Plenary Guardianship by the court, my mom had to first be found Incompetent. This has been quiet an education for me. A costly one!"

Very good point. Given up any say in your mothers case could be disastrous.

Before you make a decision one way or another, you may want to read this book (and visit the authors website). I found it at my library, but the information was so worthwhile I purchased a copy for myself (Amazon.com has used copies for as little as $2.14).

You may also want to visit the Caretakers forum. Plenty of folks there are dealing with similar situations.

The Retirement Nightmare: How to Save Yourself from Your Heirs and Protectors : Involuntary Conservatorships and Guardianships
by Diane G. Armstrong Ph.D.

www.retirementnightmare.com/author.htm

"Dr. Diane G. Armstrong is a clinical psychologist who lives in Santa Barbara with her husband Bruce. They have been married since 1966. Mother of two adult daughters, she works as a writer and consultant specializing in the abuse of involuntary conservatorship/guardianship proceedings in today's courts. Her breakthrough book was inspired by the million-dollar court battle that ensued when four of her six siblings attempted to establish an involuntary conservatorship over their competent 72-year-old mother. It is the first book in America to focus on the abuse rather than the use of today's conservatorship and guardianship codes, exposing a web of state laws that were originally created to protect "infants and lunatics" and are now being used to strip elderly men and women of financial and personal independence during their golden years of retirement.

Dr. Armstrong's mother was able to end her personal legal nightmare only by settling out of court and agreeing to pay $100,000 of the petitioning children's legal bills. The Probate Judge had placed a conservatorship over her father at the beginning of the proceeding, accepting the petitioners' allegations (no proof or documentation required or offered) that his financial affairs might be compromised as his final illness robbed him of mental and physical competence.

It is interesting to note that these financial affairs had already been placed in the hands of excellent private professionals who managed all family revocable trust investments both before, during and after the infliction of the conservatorship.

Ironically, the Judge appointed Dr. Armstrong's mother as his "conservator of the person"--and then continued the bizarre trial over issues of HER competence for 16 long months."