Awkward Corner with load-bearing wall (pics)

15 years ago

We will be doing a full remodel of the kitchen in our new condo. The kitchen opens out into a dining area, which in turn, flows into the living room. There is a very awkward corner in the living room adjacent to the kitchen, which is formed by two walls at 90 degrees to each other. I wanted to demolish the walls and bring the corner into service as kitchen space. However, one of these walls is load-bearing, so the entire walls cannot be taken down; part of them will have to remain in the form of a column.

Here is the kitchen (I have posted a couple of these in another thread, but posting again so you can get an idea of the current layout):

The kitchen:

The dining area. The two small walls are not load-bearing. The wall on the left is coming down, and I am moving the refrigerator into the dining area.

This wall (with the thermostat) is at 90 degrees to a load-bearing wall....

....like so: The GC said that the non load-bearing wall can be taken down, except for the portion to the left of the thermostat, which will have to be retained as a column. Part of the load-bearing wall can be cut to open up the kitchen to the living area, and also bring in some more natural light from the balcony in the living room.

A longer view. Opposite that closet is a short hallway and the entrance into the condo.

{{gwi:1774006}}

Here is the view of the corner when you enter the condo:

{{gwi:1774007}}

I wanted to have the kitchen countertop wrap around corner and then become a small peninsula. But I having difficulty visualizing it or even doing a simple drawing. If anyone has pictures of how they dealt with such awkward spaces with load-bearing walls, please post.

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Comments (8)

jb1176
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I understand your remodel is in a condo. We are in a condo too and would like to make structural changes, but our association prohibits structural changes. Do you have to get condo association approval to make such significant changes as you describe?
davidro1
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
another term for the small walls is return wall. Removing return walls is not a matter for the building's board, but they would appreciate being consulted, and showing them what you are doing is always good since they will know things you don't and they can help. That's my approach. If they say something different from what I have said, the conversation continues.

I saw you wrote "column" to describe the load-bearing wall, at the end of it where the thermostat is. This is worrying me. If it's hollow then you will have a flat wall, not a wall ending in a column. If it's not hollow then you have more explaining to do and the building board has a real reason to be involved in your planning process.

Once you remove the RHS return wall, consider a backsplash made of part mirrors part glass, and extending into the dining area for a few inches or feet. It seems you want to bring light into the kitchen.

Just to explore options, not to make any recommendations, I'll comment on layout. That mirrored-glass backsplash wall is where your drain is, so your sink and dishwasher must be placed somewhere close enough to reach the drain: turning the layout into a U gives you continuity to send the drain around the back wall, if you wanted to put a sink or DW somewhere else. Or to have two DW. Your cooktop could be placed anywhere since the vent hood ducting can routed in a header to go over to reach the same outlet where it leaves the condo. Having said that, I wonder if the "column" you mentioned is the space taken up by other condos kitchen vent ducts -- are there more condos on other floors below yours?

Your kitchen seems to be nine feet deep, and the four foot aisle makes me figure its width as eight feet from wall to wall. Please confirm dimensions.
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A nook for a stove won't work very well. You need a minimum amount of clearance on both sides for the stove to be functional. And in fact, many manufacturers have minimum clearance requirements to meet fire code. This is usually on the order of about 12" on each side, although in practice that's really tight and awkward. I'd recommend at least 18" and preferably 24". Your drawing makes it look as if you won't have sufficient space to do that. So, you probably wouldn't be able to get the work permitted -- and even if you did it without a permit (which I won't recommend), you'll suffer from a poorly functional layout. The overall layout of the kitchen looks pretty awkward to begin with. I love cooking and like a very functional kitchen, so I probably wouldn't bid on the property because of that. Your situation might be different, depending on how important a good kitchen is to you. Having said all that, cost depends on so many different factors. It's really hard to say. It could be as easy as installing a new header, repairing a little bit of sheetrock, and patching the floor. Depending on what materials you choose and how expensive your local labor market is, I could see an absolute low-end price of around $2000 if hiring a handy man (not a great option when doing structural work!). But in a HCOL part of the country, with higher-end materials, and maybe a complication or two, it wouldn't be unusual to cost $20,000. And if you have to involve a structural engineer, an architect, and a few iterations with the planning department, you could even double that cost. If the city makes you bring things up to code in the process, things could balloon even more. The good news is that while all kitchen remodels are expensive, once you get to the upper end of the price range, there only is a small incremental difference between moving a wall and doing a full remodel. So, the good news is that at least you'll get a lot more for your money; the bad news is that until you actually get quotes and maybe have somebody open up walls, it's really hard to give you any firm numbers.
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smallkitchen
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Jb, yes, we'll have to get approval from the HOA before we can make any changes. I am still in the very preliminary planning stages. With the help of a GC, we'll be preparing detailed applications to be submitted to the board.

Davidro, the kitchen as it stands now is 8L x 8D x 8H. The dining area is the same except that it is 9' in length. There is another unit below us, with exactly the same layout.

'Column" might not be the best word to describe. From what the GC told me, it sounded like an L-shaped post (hope this is not confusing further!). Not sure if it will be hollow.

My goal is to somehow expand kitchen space, and also bring in more light. The window in the kitchen faces west and it is pretty dark in there right now, if you turn off the electric lights.
smallkitchen
Original Author
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Davidro, I forgot to add this photo to my reply. This is what it looks like inside the kitchen on the other side of that corner. That entire range is going to be removed and replaced with an induction cooktop (I thought I had seen it all in ugly electric ranges, until I met this one!).
gaylemh
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
I had answered your original post. I have almost the same kitchen as you. I know what it's like to see so many beautiful kitchen and have a lot of ideas of what you would like, but unfortunately with a small area, and HOA's we are very limited.

I made my kitchen a small U shaped. It was the only way I could get the amount of storage I wanted and some usable counter space. I went with a rope trimmed cabinet and rope molding along with a clipped corner sink, to try to bring some personality to the space.
davidro1
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
smallkitchen, why call it a "very awkward corner"? It's OK. It's nine feet from the return walls to the curtains. That's fine. I might put an iMac control / message center in that corner, along with a comfy armchair. Definitely not a dining table, because I don't like having that as a focal point upon entering.

The other "small" wall, visible in images 4, 5, and especially 6, has to stay there. When you enter, you see it first. It's really a big focal point. Right now it's white like the other walls. I'd put a medium size tall mirror on it to draw your eye away from it and away from the curtained wall too. Of course I haven't seen what the mirror would show, the rest of the space and the views, so take that FWIW. Hmm, I think I read that you want to take it down, and leave only a column. I wouldn't do that. Too much open space is not good. Walling off some space is good. Perhaps a frosted window there, next to a tall narrow mirror, might do it.... but it's lots of work for little impact, imho based not on being there but only seeing photos.

If I bought your space, here are a number of improvements which I'd shoot for. This list is derived from rewriting other poster's comments saying what they like best about their new kitchen, and edited to suit your small space.

30" deep counters on one side
Uninterrupted counterspace
Enough useful counterspace in each area
More space to prep
defined areas
- clean up food (running water and places to hold, i.e. sink and DW)
- heat food (oven/cooktop or range, MW)
- store food (refrigerator, pantry, drawer for bread, drawer for spices garlic & onion bin, separate cool dark dry place for potato bin, etc)
A message center. A place to sit. A place to bake. A place to prep. A place to wash up.
A stool or perch for the second person in the kitchen
Distinct work zones with relevant tools stored there; 2 sets of some articles
Space that enables both to cook simultaneously; 2 distinct zones
Layout arranged to get more natural light and better views
No wall cabinets in one of the zones / areas
Uncluttered counters: knife pullout and appliance garage
"Yay for less stuff on my gorgeous counters!"
Natural light maximized via windows and lack of obstructions
Light, lots and lots of light
Overhead recessed
Under cabinet task lighting
Under cabinet lighting -- ditto
Pretty pendants
dimmer switches
Dimmers
... "didn't think we needed undercab lights, but we put them in and I love them. I don't care for overhead lighting much. I love the undercab lights and I can work without the recessed on overhead. I put dimmers on everything in the kitchen and I love how it can be 'romantic' in the kitchen"...
window looking into woods
mirrors & mirror film on glass cabinet doors, located to maximize natural light from window
natural light, sunshine, a light airy feeling, and pretty views out the windows.
...A general quality of the space that makes you want to be there, whether you're cooking or not...
Induction cooktop
..."Clean up is such a breeze and induction uses less energy than conventional electric or gas. It's so fast and it has a setting so low as to barely melt chocolate"...
Dish drawer dishwasher
Big one bowl sink
Big one bowl siligranite sink
Super single Blanco sink
a fridge with a freezer on the bottom
Smaller fridge
place to store a stepstool if your cabs go to the ceiling
pullout in extra deep base, for pantry
Toe Kick drawers
...Toekick drawers that others have (darn for not finding this forum sooner)...
Bread drawer
..."Of all the expensive things in my new kitchen, my simple bread drawer is my favorite thing.
It keeps the breads and bakery items off of the counter and I don't have to keep it in the fridge"...
pot and pan drawers
Pots and pans drawers
a drawer for dishes
Deep drawers
Drawers, drawers, and more drawers
lots of drawers
..."I keep my daily dishes in one and my shoulders appreciated not having to lift them into a wall cupboard.
I hated the two "door" cabinets I had because I had to sit on the floor to dig things out.
The new kitchen is almost all drawers -- and the two door cupboards have pullouts this time"...
Soft close mechanism
Full-extension drawer glides
Full extension drawers "... wouldn't be without them..."
Big deep drawers and a slim cabinet to stand your cookie sheets in
flat storage cabinet for trays, mats, etc., and a vertical storage cabinet for platters, plus a pull-out for baking boards
cabinet full of vertical racks for storing cutting boards, platters, cookie sheets, etc.
A pitchers and vases cupboard or deep drawer.
Frameless cabinets maximize volume inside.
Never MT
Never MT "...haven't filled a soap bottle in over two years...
Tapmaster "...really saves on water usage and makes it so easy to wash hands when they're all gunky...
Flat-screen tv; sound system
under-cabinet molding/trim. ...The cabinets look *framed* and *finished*...

..."I should have put in pullouts (with doors attached) for spices, small appliances. I did pullout trays (deep and shallow - would have been better all deep), but you still have to open the doors and then pull them out. It would have been better all drawers/pullouts (with doors attached)"...

----

I didn't mention disposers and trash: how is garbage managed in your condo building?
--
David
Fori
15 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
OOOOh That stove is a classic. Teehee. Probably pretty good for the space when it was installed...

When you get some drawings, post 'em! In the meantime, this thread has some interesting columns. Awkward corners can be neat features. Not sure if these apply, but they're fun:

Here is a link that might be useful: Columns in odd places
smallkitchen
Original Author
14 years ago
last modified: 9 years ago
Gaylemh, I sure know how it feels to see the gorgeous kitchens in books, magazines, etc. and then have to work with HOA restrictions on an 8 x 8!

Davidro, thank you for the list. Lots to think about. Btw, I am the only one who will cook in this kitchen. Hubby comes in only to get food and wash the dishes :-)

Fori, that stove is such an eyesore; I cannot wait for it to be yanked out of there!

Update: The GC went into the crawl space and determined that the 38-inch wall is not load-bearing and can be torn down (subject HOA approval, of course).

I have been struggling with the layout. I downloaded the trial version of Plan3D - seems like it might be easy enough to learn; but I gave up after an hour of wrestling around with the arrows and cursors. Here is a very preliminary effort with downloaded graph paper. The kitchen and dining areas are to scale, but the living area is not because the graph paper was not large enough (I had only 8 x 11 paper at home). But it gives a rough idea of how I wanted to plan that space after removing the wall.

Existing layout:

{{gwi:1774013}}

New layout:
{{gwi:1774015}}

I would like a diagonal counter at that corner, with a single oven installed under the counter at the diagonal. I am fairly certain that I will be choosing the Bosch 27-inch single oven (dimensions of the oven are here). I am not sure if this is the most efficient way to use the space or even whether it can be done this way. Would appreciate input from the experienced folks here.

Another possibility is to install the oven under the induction cooktop, but that is iffy due to clearance requirements of the cooktop manufacturer. Moreover, I will probably want to have 34" tall counters because I am only 5ft-1" and the standard 36" counters are slightly uncomfortable. This will probably preclude having the oven under the cooktop. The GC says that a range would be the best solution, but I don't want a range.

Other things in the layout: the back wall will have a very shallow reach-in pantry with 10-inch shelves. Not sure if it is possible to have the entire back wall as the pantry, but I am aiming for the maximum width that I can get away with; the remaining wall will then have a combination of shallow counter and wall cabinet.

The peninsula is also giving me sleepless nights. I want the counter space and storage space there, and I also want to be able to seat 2 or 3 persons, so there needs to be at least a 10-inch overhang, which leaves me with only 8-inch deep shelving underneath the counter. But an 18-inch counter seems to be the only solution that will give me enough room inside the U, and also not cramp the dining area. Any other ideas?

Awkward Corner with load-bearing wall (pics)

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Awkward Corner with load-bearing wall (pics)

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