Transformers have often tripped GFCI circuits. This is a common problem when plugging low voltage outdoor lights into a protected outlet. The TX doesn't need GFCI since it is ending up low voltage, can you move it?

Thanks. Yes, I am planning to move the TX to another circuit.

With all the time and effort you have tied up into the electrician, and troubleshooting this, why not just put a suntouch on the system to control multiple speeds, and the actuator valve.

You can also use a spring loaded bypass valve that will automatically adjust the flow going through the Dectron.

Tried to avoid the expense of a controller. The system does work. Problem is only with GFCI trips...which we will resolve.

ProductManager

In http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/pools/msg1115383015031.html
you indicate that the Intelliflo is not able to operate on a GFCI breaker. This would suggest there are leakage currents to ground in excess of 5 milliamps. Why?

If indeed this is the case, then why is there a reference to GFCI in the Probelms table on page 51. Something does not smell right here. It sounds like there is a design defect.

Are you posting on behalf of Pentair?

repool

Like I said in your e-mail, a pump is not typically installed with a GFI. There is no reason for it. My guess the trip is because this is not your ordinary 240V load on the gfi.

1. The voltage requirement for the pump is 230VAC rated at 16A. That exceeds the standard GFI. Tech specs for the pump specifically state to wire the pump directly to a breaker.

2. The drive operates and converts 170 to 230 VAC to a three phase source for the motor. The manual clearly states the power source should never be interrupted.

3. The motor is a 6 pole three phase.

I'm no expert on why a GFI works or does not but I know why it is used. It is not used for pumps and this pump circuit is not your standard circuit. The drive also holds power briefly in a capacitor bank even when the power is off. I'm guessing this powering down also interferes with a GFI.

There is a ton of stuff on to deal with on this pump that is not in the manual. A lot of it is discovered by installers but never known by the single owner who sets out to put one in. This is why I always push for people to have it installed by a pro. You will certainly get savings by installing the pump. You will get more if done by an installer who has done many of them.

It's like taking your computer in to a tech guy. They can dial things in that the average user cannot. I've put in dozens of these pumps and I learn something new every time. This pump has a looooong learning curve and I could pretty much rewrite the manual based on what I've learned.

In fact, I am. For myself and a few friends. There is far too much left out and even tech support is in the dark on it most of the time. I can't imagine the task of an owner buying g one and installing it perfectly. They never do. to date, I've seen many complaints directed to this pump on the performance and every one that I have personally gone out to inspect has been operator/installer error. It has never been a pump issue. The thing is pretty much bullet proof.

I have not seen productmanager post here in some time but hopefully you can get your answer from the source. He's the man who created it.

Repair Guy

Thanks. Would love to have a copy of the manual you are creating. I am using a pro. So far installation has cost me $550 and a weeks worth of frustration and now the pump is out...primarliy because of misleading documentation provided by Pentair. Why does the manual reference GFCI if the pump should not be connected to a GCCI breaker? Why does the manual not state that the pump is to be connected to a standard breaker? My old pump was connected to a GFCI breaker. I am in Toronto Canada so I need to check the regulations here.

By the way, we have 250 volts which is in the acceptable range.

Repair Guy

I spoke with Pentair technical support. They told me that this pump does not work with a GFCI breaker. In the future, newer versions of the pump will be able to operate on a GFCI breaker. They might offer upgrades in terms of the driver to existing pump owners.

Glad you got your answer. I still see no need for an upgrade as there is no need for a GFI on a pump unless it is the above ground skid pack version.

It takes about 10 seconds to remove a GFI so you may ask your installer why he is having such a hard time and charging you almost $600 for a total job that should take 40 minutes plus an hour or so of programming.

Ah....this is what happens when an industrial drive is fitted to a residential piece of equipment without taking the extra effort to make it user friendly.....mass confusion and incorrect adjustments being made by the homeowner. Ultimately, it is this type of user experience that will determine the success of this product.

The problem is relying on pool professionals to understand industrial programming logic....this is a huge leap and very few people, repair guy being one of the few, will take the extra time to fully understand this logic that is common in industrial applicatons and properly apply it to residential applications.

Hopefully Pentair and Product Manager take note of this as well as the performance shortfall of this pump with heavy duty applications and come out with a next generation variable speed pump to address these problems.

It tears me to see the pool industry learning the same mistakes as the HVAC industry did 20 years ago and consumers like you and I pay the price for these mistakes.

Nice to be one of the few. This issue with the GFI is a very isolated one in my opinion. The main reason is that you are fitting a pump into a situation that is not normal. Just because someone hires a "pro" to install a piece of equipment (insert name here) it does not mean they are getting the best of the bunch. Point noted on this job. There have been accusations lodged against the manufacturer for not detailing things that the informed technician would already know. If a person is professionally employed in a certain area, it is assumed they know what they are doing. Unfortunately, this is not the case. There are many guys out there seeing this pump as another way to make money just as they would with a filter or any other item. It does not take a logical thinker to install a filter. An IntelliFlo is not a basic pump install. If you don't know the technology behind the product, you are going to disappoint someone somewhere.

Like they say with computers. "stupid in, stupid out". The computer is not the problem. In this case, the pump technology is not the problem. It's the installer. Everyone who has experience in the industry knows there are no GFI's on pool pumps. I'm guessing somewhere in the Pentair book it does not say you need to have a pool prior to installing this pump. But I'm sure there are people who will say it did not say I needed a pool for it to work.

The pump is a 240V pump. It is a basic assumption that there is not a 120V GFI on the circuit, or at least there should be. But then again, everything has a label on it today for idiots.

The owner here is not an idiot, the installer who can't close the deal is. To date, I've never had one of these pumps fail after installation. Not one. VS or VF. I've had my share of call backs but that was part of the learning curve. Yes, there are many things left out of the book but in my opinion, this pump is not meant to be installed by the homeowner. They get suckered in to do it by the cheap online pricing but that is the cost of saving money on occasion.

RG-

Good to hear an update on reliability of this product. Even though it has only been a couple of years in the field, I would have expected some drive replacements by now.

My experience is the easier the electronic product is to setup and control in the field, the more accepted it will be. As youÂre aware, once you get into the nuts and bolts of VFD control, it can be very powerful and also very intimidating. This intimidation factor combined with homeowner expectations, tends to scare most technicians into taking the path of least resistance and installing technology that they know and trust from experience to keep their customer happy.

Only time will tell on the success of this product.

I continue to watch this technology closely and when I think itÂs viable, will probably invest in a variable speed pump. Right now, the reliability is a question in my mind and the performance at heavier loads needs to be improved. I have not seen any technical specs from any other variable speed pump manufacturer other than Pentair. Not sure what this means.

For now, my big 2 speed pumps are fitting my needs. I have ready access to VFDÂs and have even thought about using one to control one of my pumps, but I canÂt justify my time to do this even though I can get the drive for free. There is just not that many advantages to having more than 2 speeds in my mind. Although it would be cool to increase the speed beyond 3600 rpm to get crazy on my waterfall on occasion, but then I worry about pushing too much horsepower through my pump and causing pre-mature mechanical failure.

AnywayÂ..back to the original post subjectÂÂsorry to hijack this threadÂ.

My VF3050 is now instalalled on a standard breaker. The filter bypass switch works under manual tesing. To start, we unchoked the water flow into the Dectron and adjusted the pump flow lower until the inlet - outlet temperature difference was 12 degrees F. This was achieved at 1100 RPM and 120 watts (wow!). We also tried adjusting the GPM down but the minimum setting of 15 GPM resulted in a signficantly higher RPM and power. I believe that the Dectron needs a minimum of 8 GPM otherwise it will trip. Don't understand why the lowest adjusted RPM and lowest adjust GPM are not roughly equivalent.

Kudos to Pentair for producing such a flexible pump and efficient pump.

Where I am, Toronto, I could not find anyone who would even order the pump for me. Hence I purchased it myself on the Intenet (PoolsOnly.com). There is now at least one mechanical engineer in Toronto who knows how to install this pump.

Notwithstanding all of the experience that one may acquire as an installer, I believe that manufacturers have a responsibility to ensure that known problems are made evident to consumers. There should have been an insert with the pump warning about the GFCI problem. By the way Pentair believes that it is a problem as (1) their documentation references a GFCI breaker (2) they are developing a fix for this issue. Frankly I could care less whether it does or doesn't work on a GFCI breaker, the point is I wasted my time and money because of this omission. Now the information is out. Anyone can search the web and find my postings.
If you have an indoor pool with a standard pump running 24/7 through a filter, you can save significant operating costs with this pump, but don't put the current version on a GFCI breaker.

".this is what happens when an industrial drive is fitted to a residential piece of equipment without taking the extra effort to make it user friendly.....mass confusion and incorrect adjustments being made by the homeowner. Ultimately, it is this type of user experience that will determine the success of this product."

You are too funny I still don't understand your massive hatred of this product. (maybe it got your daughter pregnant or ran off with your wife.

Every piece of pool equipment can be installed or setup properly. I would be more worried about people installing heaters than doing something wrong with this pump. Typically at worst you can repair their mistakes without even pulling your tools out of the truck.

Racket- Thanks for the entertainmentÂ.my wife and my oldest daughter enjoyed reading your post during lunch today and IÂm still laughing as I type this.

I donÂt have a massive hatred for this product but am beginning to develop an opinion for one particular member of this forumÂsorry. IÂve seen these new "gee-wiz" products released in the HVAC industry over the years only to die a slow death. I know you have some biases being in the pool industry but IÂm looking at this from a consumerÂs perspective and being a new pool owner with some experience with these so called "new" technologies, even though they have been out there for over 20 years now.

If the product is being mis-applied it will cost the consumer more money to own this product. These costs will come from using the pump outside of itÂs designed operating range (which is not 160 gpm even though Pentair is calling it such). This mis-application of the product is costing the owner in monthly utility bills when used in heavy duty applications and replacement parts later down the road from mis-use. Other costs I have seen documented in this forum are: additional service calls to adjust the pump because it is not performing the way the owner was expecting and the additional cost of paying for the technology up front when a proven lower cost technology can be had for a lot less money and with comparable efficiency and sometimes better efficiency. These additional costs were certainly not PentairÂs intent and neither was it the homeowners intent, but in the end the product allowed this to happen and everyone loses. This thread is a perfect example of the product being mis-applied. From my experience with this technology, I would never recommend variable speed equipment to be ran 24/7. I think Pentair and other pool insiders would back me up on this one also and make other recommendations for this application.

Only time will tell on the success of this productÂ.being a pool insider, would you care to share your thoughts on the success of this product so far or share your Pentair sales rep comments on the success of this product so far. I think you stated in another post that this was approximately a $20 million dollar projectÂ.if that is the case, Pentair has made a very bad business decision, in my opinion, investing this much money in a technology that was brought to market with annual top line sales that will never come close to the $20M investment.

Here's a perspective from a guy in the trenches. The original IntelliFlo came out several years ago. This was the 4 speed version. Suppliers knew there was a better one in the pipeline and really did not push the 4 speed as they called it "not the real one". Once the real one (VS3050, 3.2 whatever you choose to call it) came out in our area, it went into a one year pilot program in 2007 with the cooperation of Southern California Edison. Technicians were trained and held accountable for their work and watched very closely on the quality of the installations. This was done by a 3rd party in partnership with Pentair. Installations had to be perfect in terms of efficiency as we were paid a $250.00 rebate for installing and you did not get it until the job passed the inspection. These jobs were being subsidized and owners had a great chance to get in cheaply. Throughout 2007, the sell on the product was 100% on the installer. We had to sell it and gradually, news media picked up on it late in 2007 and the word was out that there was a better option. The program shut down at the end of 2007 as planned and I assume they are in evaluation mode as the paperwork states. Evaluation includes design modifications of impeller based on findings from the authorized installer network and it is geared to getting this product to the masses much cheaper. This is pretty much how every new product comes to market and is well documented through SCE.

Now 2/3 of the way into 2008, the product has full name recognition although function may not be understood. I can only mention the name and just about everyone has heard it. Verified savings records sell the product. Those records are from those who have put one in and told a friend. Those who do not have one are pre-sold by the time I find them and I just need to make the final impression. I do far less work to sell the pump now but as with any industry, sales are slow due to the economy.

A smart installer packages the pump with other products to make the sale ans the bottom line is the pump is doing excellent and I have never had to go out and uninstall a motor or drive on any job I have ever done.

And, the fact still remains that is you put a watt meter on a standard pool motor at full speed, it will always draw more than an IntelliFlo at the same rpm. You cannot argue that fact no matter how much the word is out there that these pumps are somehow inefficient at high speeds. This myth is perpetuated by those who have never touched the pump.

Trhought:

The user interface on this pump's onboard controller is straight forward. It is pretty intuitive.
If I get one year out of this pump I will get my investment back.
On the contrary, this is the perfect pump for my application.
Time will tell.

Hello gentlemen. I came across this thread searching for forums that have had VF3050 discussions. I am having a pool put in and am considering the $500 upgrade to this pump. I emailed RG and got some great info. I am having a basic pool installed that would normally be fitted with a single speed 1 HP pump. It's about 13-15k gallon pool with no water features other than a spray fan (but I am having a pipe plumbled and cappped for a future waterfall). I calculated about $60 a month with my power company with an 8 hour a day run on the 1 HP pump. So, if I can use this pump and save 50%, I can pay for the upgrade in 17 months. My only concern is that, with this size pool (small), can I expect those savings? Pentair told me the lowest speed was less than 0.5 HP. But they have no current vs HP curves that I could find that could give me an idea of how much current it draws on low.

Also, I will need it to be on a higher speed at some point through out the day to run the creepy crawler. I assume this isnt a big deal to program.

Lastly, looking forward a little, what are the projected replacement costs for a motor? That could be a big factor in whipping out any savings you realize if it going to cost you $700 to replace the motor in 3-4 years. Anyone know what a motor replacment cost?

A standard pump motor around here cost about $250 to replace and the average life is around 3-4 years where I live (coastal FL) as they get eaten up by salt air. If it cost you $500 to 700 for a motor replacement on the VF3050 and it only lasts 3-4 years, the extra motor cost will eat up all the savings you realized in energy. Not a good trade.

I know I typed alot of questions, but I am having trouble finding info on this pump and really am struggling with spending the extra $500 or not. Thanks for any info from all...

Chad

Chad-

Below is a link to an Intelliflo manual with some information you are looking for. Towards the end of the manual you will find the pump curves for this technology along with power consumption at different speeds.

Wish I could answer your questions related to replacement costs for the motor. I have been asking this question on this forum for a while now. Repair Guy on this forum is very knowledgeable about the Intelliflo pumps and being a technician, probably knows the replacement cost for the motor. I have also asked about the replacement cost of the variable frequency drive that is integral to the motor design and when it fails, the motor will not work either. My experience with this technology is the drives are more expensive than the motors. No one is willing to answer either of these replacement cost questions yet.

Hope the below link helps with your homework!

Here is a link that might be useful: Intelliflo Power Consumption

Chad-

I would also recommend doing your homework on a 2 speed pump for your pool also. These pumps offer almost the same power savings at low speed as the Intelliflo pumps for a lot less initial investment and lower replacement part costs.

Hope this helps!

This is an old thread but like to know an answer about GFCI.

Some circuits have a GFCI on the entire circuit breaker box. Will that cause a problem for Intelliflo?

It should NOT create a problem. There just isn't a need for one on a pool pump. The pump itself cannot be connected to a gfci and expect the gfci to function. I am pretty sure it only has 2 hot leads (180 degree opposite polarity) and a ground. I don't believe there is a common (white) lead that a 240VAC GFCI would require. I could be wrong since I am not a certified electrician.

Scott