I have never seen a pool structure repaired under a "lifetime" shell warranty.

10 years is more realistic, because anything after that is completely out of the pool builder hands.

Thank tresw and racket. As a first-timer this whole process is making me so nervous . . . so thanks for the inputs, keep'em coming 'cause I can use all the know-how, advice and experience I can get. But did I miss something . . . I see where some local PB's and national companies do offer "lifetime warranty" on the pool shell. For example, I know that Anthony & Sylvan and Blue Haven say their warranty the the gunite structure for life (even though I know the quality of their product varies. We didn't like (1) their sales reps in our area (2) that they use 3/8 instead of 1/2" rebar and (3) they shoot thiner walls and floors with less gunite. We thought that using a custom local PB (supporting our local tradesmen, etc) would be a good idea and would get us a better quality structure (#4 1/2" rebar on 12C, 8" thick walls and floors). So, why not a longer warranty similar to other industry companies? When I starting reading the warranty of others, for example (kept the BH contract, but the salesman didn't want to part with it at first with a a deal) I read "Pool Shell: BHP warrants the concrete shell to be free from structural cracks above and below the waterline for as long as the original purchaser owns the pool. Also that the piping, skimmers and main drains installed in and under the pool will hold water. If a leak or crack should evelop, BHP will repair the shell and repair or replace the pipes so that they hold water. If this work requires repair of the tile, coping or plaster finish, they will be repaired without charge." Now, I know of people that have had their A & S pool crack in my neighborhood in the first year and another who had to sue BHP and pulled them off the job and that's why we though a local company would be more responsible. I guess I would appreaciate hearing from others if they used a local PB and what type of warranty did they get. Is this something that a PB will negotiate to give something more like these national companies or is that not something I should expect? Just seems strange that "better construction" does not equate to a "better warranty."

Sounds like you know what you want, hats off

Look for:
12" beam
9" floors/belly
#4 tied 70% 10" OC
#3 tied 50% 12OC of your decks with compacted road base/bagged perimeter to minimize cracking

3-4" pour for your decks. Inquire of color added to the deck pour, unless you're topping with stone. This doesn't cost much, and a lot prettier to look at should you chip your deck.

Warranty-

Should read, warrants pool structure to be structurally sound for as long as buyer owns the pool. After that, inspection with transfer to the new owner. 10 yrs sounds skinny, gunite has been in use over 20 yrs now, and I can say that pools shot in Gunite is a liftime product, if done properly. Beyond that a two year bumper to bumper to cover workmanship/materials is not unreasonable.

Hope this helps,

-LPG

"As a first-timer this whole process is making me so nervous"

That won't go away until you're swimming!

"But did I miss something . . . I see where some local PB's and national companies do offer "lifetime warranty" on the pool shell."

It's really easy for a company to offer a lifetime warranty. It's just a piece of paper. Getting them to honor it is another matter entirely. As I mentioned above the warranty is only as good as who is offering it. From what I've read about many PB's, you can have great difficulty just getting them to finish your pool, much less honor a structural warranty 20 years down the road. You really want to research the PBs you're considering and find out what kind of service they will provide months and years in the future. We paid a little more for our pool because the PB we went with had a flawless track record and has been around since the 70's. We've since learned just how important that was because we've had a few problems come up and they've always been very quick to respond. It gives you a lot of peace of mind when you know the PB will be there to support you in the long term. So in summary, you're not looking for who has the best warranty on paper, you're looking for the PB that backs up their warranty with action.

"and that's why we though a local company would be more responsible."

This is where due diligence comes in, don't assume anything. Check with your local BBB and also get several references from each PB and call them.

"Just seems strange that "better construction" does not equate to a "better warranty."

As I mentioned above, the warranty is just a piece of paper, a promise that can be easily broken. The quality of construction is much more important.

Yeh, Blue Haven warranties their shell for life...just try and get them to actually stand behind that warranty. They will have more excuses than a politican. And they will blame it all on you.

As already been stated, the warranty is only as good as the company.

Also, if you look at the contract that is posted, it says: The Contractor at his option,. That means they don't have to do anything if they don't feel like it.

Hi, folks, and thanks again for the additional info.

LocalPoolGuy-- Please if you wouldn't mind, I'd really appreciate the follow-up:

"Sounds like you know what you want, hats off"

-- Boy, do I have you fooled. Just because I am starting to become familiar with the lingo doesn't mean I know what it means :)

"Look for *12" beam *

-- This PB goes to 11" and only at the top 8 inches, then tapers back to 8" walls. He says its because he is proposing to use 12" wide natural stone coping, thus giving it a 1" overhang. Is this OK?

* 9" floors/belly *

-- This PB has 8 inch floor, should I insist that it be 9 or another more expensive quote the PB had it at 10" floor. How much more should that add to the cost if he is even willing to do that? Also, might the floor need to be only 8" because of using an in-floor cleaning system?

* #4 tied 70% 10" OC
#3 tied 50% 12OC of your decks with compacted road base/bagged perimeter to minimize cracking *

-- This is from a sample plan, #4 Bars at 12" Centers Each Way, 6" Centers Horizontally for Top Three Bars, 3/4" Crushed Stone Sub Base, 6" Thickness
HELP TRANSLATION NEEDED . . no mention of #3, is this better or worse than what you are suggesting and what does it all mean anywaY?

* 3-4" pour for your decks. Inquire of color added to the deck pour, unless you're topping with stone. This doesn't cost much, and a lot prettier to look at should you chip your deck.*

-- We will be doing pavers as is the norm in our area as opposed to poured concrete decking, but I guess I should get a 3-4" poured concrete steel reinforced equipment pad?

Warranty-

*Should read, warrants pool structure to be structurally sound for as long as buyer owns the pool. After that, inspection with transfer to the new owner. 10 yrs sounds skinny, gunite has been in use over 20 yrs now, and I can say that pools shot in Gunite is a liftime product, if done properly. Beyond that a two year bumper to bumper to cover workmanship/materials is not unreasonable.*

The two other local PB's have this in their proposals (but I haven't seen any fancy warranty forms or actual contracts

Other PB "Lifetime Warranty on Shell to Buyer"

Other PB "Reinforced gunite shell, guaranteed to original owner for life of pool if properly maintained"

* Hope this helps,*

-- Every bit does. Thanks.

Tresw -- Great advice. Actually, I have been to several of the PB's pools that were as old as 11 years, but I know that people do change subs, materials and even engineering specs overtime so I can really only know what he is doing by the most recent specs I have seen and that's only because I asked to see the engineering for a pool he was in the process of building. I had initially started asking questions about wall and floor thickness, beam, etc.

Barco-- I agree that you have a hard time getting those Big Guys with bigger legal departments to honor their paper. That's where settlements always seem to come in. And perhaps the unsuspecting customer gets a cosmetic replaster (in a nice color upgrade of course) to cover a crack that's a much bigger structural issue, for example.

There it is again....the catch all out.
guaranteed to original owner for life of pool if properly maintained"
PB's use "properly maintained" as a catch all. If you let one parameter of your pool go out for 1 second, it can be argued you no longer properly maintained it. Who among us who have had a pool longer than 3 years, have not let one parameter go out of whack for a few days...

1" overhang waterside is O.K. What are you using under the pavers ( sub-deck)?

Gunite difference- what size is your pool, in water area? The difference should be between 1-2 yds. material, not much of an adder.

Re: equipment pad- some builders drop preformed concrete pads, others pour. Either is O.K. as there isn't much stress, I prefer pouring a pad, as it takes away the chance of shifting after a good rain. Again steel is better than mesh, or roll out wire.

Warranty- As others have stated, paper is only as good as the company, true. The properly maintained part, should only relate to the plaster. The shell will either have the ability to hold water, or it won't. the rest is cosmetic, meaning your builder should stand behind the shell for life. If the dig is properly prepped ( which it sounds like it will if they talk of 6" crushed aggregate), should have no worries.

Re: in-floor cleaning system: THe thickness of your gunite is not relevent. The crews will set the pop-up height(s) accordingly.

-LPG

If you want proper engineering get a pool specific soils report they will give the engneer the information to do a the steel that is necessary for your conditions. One size does not fit all. 1/2" may be overkill or not enough.
Good luck.

We have been researching PB and have narrowed it down to Claffey and Riverbend. Hoping to recieve comments on quality, customer service and all around experience.

Does anyone have any experience negotiating the price, original quotes apprx 50k-51k, one came down to approx $49k the other is at approx 46k. Is there any wiggle room for these guys?

Thank you.

Hey guys, Thanks again--
Poolexpert-- One of the reasons my overall construction cost is higher is that I am supposedly having the shell built to a higher standard by the local customer builder types. Even though I am only doing an 800 pretty standard pool for our area, I was worried about resale and the pool holding up over time, so I am willing to invest more now in the hopes I won't have a bigger problem later. But, now I know why everyone in the neighborhood went with the Big Guys as my costs for everything have added up to a much, much, higher number as everthing, not just the better shell, is marked up so much higher (finish upgrades, controls, etc.)
LPG -- We don't know what the subdeck will be as we will be doing our own pavers probably next spring if we ever get the pool in this fall. The pavers that we would like to use are large individual pieces that when laid together are supposed to mimic the lool of tumbled flagestone (real stone would be way too expensive as I am having trouble dealing with the cost of the hole :) and the other features we need.
PoolWantedBadly-- The reason I haven't started yet is that our quotes for are way, way higher than that, and I am still trying to sort it out because of the differences in who includes electrical or gas and how much and the relative values are for the difference equipement (pump, filter, heater) sold by each PB. And that's before any finish upgrades, extra benches, or in-floor cleaning systems. I guess some PBs expect you to bargain with them but I just wish they would start with a basis fair price to all and then ease up on the markups on those extras. It's killin' my enthusiam at this point since we're just working folks who waited, perhaps to long to do this. We thought we'd take some retirement money (some of our friends and family never got to enjoy theirs) and try to enjoy life a bit more now. I would be interested in comparing quotes with you if you are in NJ. I have seen the quotes posted from people in CA, FL, AZ and TX and all I can say is there's no comparison to what we get charged up here. But, rather than add to this thread send yours along anyway, and I can just be jealous . . . or maybe I can work up the nerve to be more courageous in trying to get a fair deal that is reasonable to both parties. Try me at NJFolks4@gmail.com. Or maybe we should start a separate compare my quote thread for different areas of the country ;).

quote" original quotes approx 50k-51k, one came down to approx $49k the other is at approx 46k. Is there any wiggle room for these guys?"quote

I wouldn't think so. Your low bidder, if he was at 51, has already dropped 10 percent off of his quote. This is a really big price drop if he kept the pool/deck/equipment the same. Price drops with no changes to pool/deck size or equipment come 100 percent out of the builders profit dollars.

njfolks,

My suggestion would be to ask your potential pool builder to provide you with the name of the gunite applicator. Ask them if they have any objection in providing you with a written warranty that will bind them to you as the underwriter of the guarantee.
IMO, you should have 4 #4 bars, either 3 over 1 or 2 over 2 boxed, as the rebar in the beam. The concrete beam should be 12" x 12", if he's using a 12" precut stone have the Guniter take a pointer trowel and 45 down the back side an inch or two off of the back edge. 8 thick on the floor/wall and 11 on the cove is excellent. I don't see where the gunite company should have any problem giving you a written warranty with these dimensions for the concrete.

localpoolguy,
I disagree with your statement that it'll only add a yard or two to the consumption of of material. Jumping from 6" to 8" will increase the amount of yardage necessary by 20 to 25 percent. This would be a noticeable increase even on a pool half the size of theirs.

See ya,
Kelly

Hi Kelly --

Thanks for the good advice about the warranty from the Guniter. I was just stunned that this was the only PB that didn't even offer the "warm and fuzzy" lifetime, long as you own your pool or similar warranty (even though I agree with others remarks and my own that it is only as good as the person/company behind it. He just made such a huge point about how well his pools were constructed. It is just that this local guy is right up their in price with the one other company who is a MG member and their price quote I ruled because of the total and the really high extras (and IMHO is seemed their target customer was people who pay to have everything done for them, no questions asked and price is no object). I actually didn't realize at first that the quote from this PB was actually going to end up in the same range . . . or should I say stratosphere. Kelly, those were not my prices that you were commenting on but from "poolwantedbadly." For those not from our area . . . hold on to your boots . . 52K base price for the essentially the shell (OK, I rounded up but by less than a few hunderd dollars). Design & engineering, extra, coping (even basic) extra, pump, filter, heater, lights --extra, extra, extra, extra -- no electrical, or electrical bonding, gas line, grading, or anything else much for that base starting cost. Just basic tile band and white Marcite plaster, 2 skimmers, two main drains, hydrostatic relief valve standard steps, maintenance kit and 4' swim out. That's why this warranty thing just threw me over the edge. I am losing lots of sleep but spending lots of time on this board ;).

Would it be better just to fly you PB guys or gals in from the warmer states in you off months? LOL (not really laughing though . . .). . . The independent PB's up here are an interesting lot since it is a seasonal business uphere. The big company's benefit from those that can't afford the designer types sticker shock up front, but I've seen too many folks paying the price for the shoddy work afterwards.

Thanks again everyone for all the advice.

We are located in the Dallas Texas area. I appreciate all of the feedback, hopefully we will have this wrapped up in the next week or so.