My DH says I'm addicted to designing floor plans and I think he must be right.

I was thinking about your DH's concerns about getting plumbing to/from the island I drew and came up with an alternative.

This puts the prep sink and DW against the wall where there is already plumbing. That turns the island in prep space (with storage underneath) that would also work very well as a place to lay out a buffet since there would be a natural flow of traffic around the island and back to the table.

This design also widens out and opens up the hallway to/from the master bedroom and gives you easy access from the masterbedroom to the kitchen prep area. If you have grandkids spending the night and some of them are sleeping in the family room, you could go get your morning cup of coffee without risking waking them up.

The SS F/F are still pretty much tucked out of sight but are easier to access from the main prep area since you don't have to go through a doorway to reach them. What you lose tho, is that ginormous walk in pantry. Instead, you would only have room for about a 3.5 ft wide reach in pantry. Since you have loads of kitchen cabinetry though, that might not be an issue for you.

Note that I didn't move the side-by-side fridge and dining room door back. Just wanted to show you an alternative to the pantry area.

Hope you found the peel and stick KD stuff. If you have a digital camera, take pics of the designs you come up with and post them here for us to critique. Now, isn't planning fun? The BAD days are while workers are in your house actually turning the plans into reality! But don't think about that yet. LOL!

OK, I admit I haven't read the previous posts...but my first red flag on the last couple of layouts is the range....no landing space on the right AND no safety zone either! That range is in a doorway and it is very dangerous to have it right up against that opening. You should have at least 18" there, preferably 24"...it may not even pass code as it's drawn right now.

Another problem...seating around that table on three sides is going to be very tight!

I have to go...but I wanted to point these issues out as quickly as possible...especially the range issue. I'll try to look at it tonight.

Buehl, The table itself is an extra large table designed to seat 10 at all times. I think you might be looking at the table as being a standard size and thinking the aisles are smaller than they actually are. In fact, that table is 7.5 ft long and 44" wide. The gray squares represent 1 ft x 1 ft so, as shown, there is about 4ft of space from the edge of the table to the counter on the long side and on the end by the island. There is about 3.5 ft from the edge of the table to the DW. That is far more space than most people have around their dining room tables.

Granted, it might be a little tight to have people sitting in all the chairs AND have someone trying to use the counter space at the same time - but I don't think that is what OP anticipates. There are no major appliances shown along the counters close to the table except the DW. And typically that would only come into use after diners have left the table. I really don't think it would be a problem but, if it was, the table could easily be moved a little further toward the family room.

As for the 55" wide range being too close to the door, from the pictures Susie linked to in one of her earlier posts, it is clear that only the right hand patio door is operable. (It is actually currently hinged to swing the other direction but I think it ought to be rehung as shown.) The patio door on on the right - the one closer to the range - is a fixed unit. So the range really isn't up next to the door opening at all.

But if Susie wants landing space to the right of the range (which I agree is probably a good idea, in the second plan, the 2nd DW and the prep sink could easily be moved closer to the patio doors and the range moved up toward where the F/F area are. I just thought the range would look better centered across from the island.

But Buehl I've seen lots of your work and you always have GREAT ideas so I do hope you'll jump in with alternatives. Susie has a marvelous space to work with and I'm sure she would appreciate seeing loads of options.

I think I like that better, with the walkway!

OK, a couple of things to bring up. My family was here tonight and we paid very close attention to how we all worked. First thing oldest daughter said was that there needs to be some counter on both sides of range. THEN, they all argued for a BIG island. Here's why.. The cooktop now, faces into the family room. That small island is where they all congregate, we always snack while cooking, so we have appetizers or what not, NO ONE uses the longest counter we have (the one with the glass uppers) because their back is to everything. BUT, we have to use it when we mix anything, cookies, cakes, it's the only real "baking" area we have. So, when I'm cooking around the cooktop and the ovens, (all over, really) they are cutting, mixing, fixing glasses, etc. Don' I have wonderful girls??? They do all the hard work, and I get to throw it into pots and season, taking all the credit! I just noticed that. I am so blessed.

The other thing... DH is really leaning to moving that wall out the six feet. He thinks it will take care of a water problem we have on the corner of the patio, and it would even out the back of the house, making the patio one continuous length. (we are covering the patio during this remodel as well) Therefore, the plumbing would be accessable for an island sink, or wall, either would work. He also asked if we could possibly put at least the refrigerator section where the frig is now, making it kind of central to everything. He called the framer that we will use to come back out in the morning, to get a quote on how much the bid will change if we don't move the wall out. He's thinking if it's not a substantial amount, we should go on with it. Since they are adding on a laundry room, and porch cover, it may not take much off the bid.

My pantry I have now is that double door unit which has interior doors that open, it's not important that I use it, I just wondered if they were out of style, or what people think about them. I DO love the walk in pantry idea. I saw someone on here with a chandelier and fell in love with that!

There is a lot of room, but it is a very awkward layout. The windowseat in the family room is so off-centered, it almost goes into the kitchen, so no matter where we put our furniture, it is very unbalanced, (but that is another day.) LOL

I can not begin to tell you all how thankful I am for all your help.

See if this is an ok translation.

Guiding Principals:
1. Cooking is a family entertainment event. It involves crowds of cooks and duffers moochin' through serving themselves drinks and appetizers. This should not change.
2. The kitchen and family room have close connections. Everybody wants to see and talk to everyone else.
3. The kitchen should serve equally well for a two person breakfast and a three cook, 12 person dinner.
4. Any counter where the user faces away from everyone else and the family room is second-class space.

Wants:
a. Have the right amounts of counter space in the right locations.
b. Space for an in-kitchen buffet of drinks and appetizers.
c. Maybe need a small mixing area not quite so divorced from the family room.
d. 55" Lacanche Cluny 1400, separate ref and frz.
e. Pantry space
f. Large message center/desk

? icemaker, multiple dishwashers, coffee center, food processor, micro, jazzy hood?
========================================================
For your next get-together, there's some stuff I'd bring up to talk over.

1. How do you think the new, big, eating area will change your family patterns?

2. If you do the 55" range facing away from the family room, will that be ok or will it become second class space?

3. Is the kitchen best located where it is - or on the other side of the house? If the connections between the kitchen and the family room are important, but you increase the distance between them - how does that change the dynamics between the cooks and the family room hanger-outers?

4. If you move the wall on the right side (near the bedroom) out 6 feet, you'll have a bigger area with no windows in the center of the house. Should a lot more glass be added?

5. When the weather is good, what are the interactions between the kitchen and the patio?

Bmore, I think you've got us! Re: the 55" range facing away...You know, I've enjoyed cooking at the penninsula facing the family room, and that is one thing that will definately be missed! I stand and cook all day, all the while watching TV. (maybe I should change my tv habit?) I have this visual of the range in a brick alcove. Someone on here has one with a rooster mural behind it, and I think it is gorgeous. I just can't see it in an island, and I can't remember seeing any pictures of one. So, that is something I've learned to accept.

The outside is/will be an extension of the inside. We grill out A LOT, sit out on the patio a lot, and the grandkids have a play area in the yard, so I'm out there with them too.

The desk area is not so important. I've even thought about putting it in that closet that we use for primarily junk. (the one near my bedroom, in between the hot water and AC) We are adding a laundry room between the house and garage, and I plan on having some closet/hanging space there. I think I will try to put a sketch of my house plan on here so you all can get an idea of how the whole thing works. Or doesn't work.
I'll try to do that right now.

Thanks so much!

Sorry if I appear to be putting a hitch in the get-along, I am posting a picture of our house plan in order for you to see how the other dining/living area are placed in regards to the kitchen. The red dotted line is where we are "proposing" to add on. The porch cover, and the laundry are set, the wall in back of the kitchen is the question.
The contractor came over this morning, and he said that omitting the moving of the wall will only knock off $1000. In the scheme of things, it seems to me as if it would not be worth it. What do yall think, and if we knocked out the wall where the pantry is now, making the dining space incorporated with the kitchen, would that be beneficial?
(with the additional 6 feet)
I know I'm unloading a lot here, but your minds are very sharp in this area!

Thanks.
Here's the floor plan

{{gwi:1757949}}

Oh my, and all this time I was thinking that the portion of the kitchen you were thinking about bumping out was at the other end where your sink is! Instead you meant adding another 6' wide by 17' long section. Wow! If you bump out the kichen wall, you'll basically have a 17' by 32' kitchen area which is a TON of real estate... room enough for a couple of kitchens actually. You'll have practically unlimited options for using the space.

With that much space, there will be two big things to watch out for tho:

1. You'll definitely want to think in terms of "work zones" when placing appliances - otherwise you may find yourself needing roller skates to fix a meal.

2. Lighting. Many portions of the room will be a long way from any exterior wall so even if you put in loads of windows and patio doors, the room may feel dark unless you light it carefully. And, if the remaining section of your patio is covered, the problem will be exacerbated b/c windows/door along the new exterior wall won't get much natural light.

Some might advise skylights to bring in more light but I think you mentioned that you're in Texas so that is not a good idea. The dang things just bring in TOO much heat. I'm in central Texas and I know a couple of dozen people who have skylights and every single one of them has wound up covering the skylights over just to combat the heat. So ix-nay on that. Instead, once you figure out cabinet placement and so forth - think hard about lighting and make sure to get plenty of it.

But WOW! - what an opportunity.

Bevangel, re-skylights, yes, the heat, and not to mention, no matter how strong they are, we have replaced two roofs in the past six years from softball size HAIL! So, I don't think I would consider them.

Do you think it's too big? If we take say, 10 feet for dining, that would bring it down to what, 17x18? I did a little playing around on paper this afternoon, and for some reason, I'm not very creative. I showed it to two of my daughters, and they just weren't too enthused. Kind of ho-hum after seeing yours. :)

And, I haven't thought about the patio cover and lighting issues. It's bright in there now, the windows are on the east and west.

It's so bright that I was thinking soapstone countertops, and dark wood/brick floors to warm it up.

Thanks!

Amen about the softball sized hail! We got pounded here in Austin just the other day.

I've been playing around with your "expanded kitchen" space.

I didn't want to put any cabinetry along the new exterior wall because, if you're planning to cover the remaining patio, you'll want as many windows there as possible. Trust me, with that wide patio covered over, you'll get a whole lot less light than you do now.

I think a whole wall of inoperable patio doors - like the one you already have - would look really nice and be in keeping with the character of your kitchen. Alternatively, if money is no object and you'ld like to be able to open the whole space up to the patio sometimes, you might check out the NANA wall systems. I'll attach a link to them below.

Because you have a lot of helpers in your kitchen, I decided you needed several work zones and that "circulation" was vital. So that led me to put a large island in the center of the opened out space with 4 ft wide aisles all around it and a work zone on each side.

Note that I envision the island top as a single large slab of soapstone or granite with cabinetry under the half where the prep sink is but no cabinetry under the other side. Instead, that side would be supported by table-style legs and be open underneath so you could have several kitchen stools that would tuck under when not in use. That should make the "duffers" happy. LOL! And, it also give you some additional dining space for if/when your family gets even bigger.

Having the prep sink in the island makes it reasonably accessible from both the main cooking zone (range side) and the baking zone (oven side). If you aren't interested in a trash compactor, you could move the prep sink to the end of the island closest to the windows so that it is equally accessible from both sides.

And of course, you have a third zone in the area near the table for clean-up and microwave and small-appliance cooking.
All of the zones are open to each other for conversational purposes and "intersect" but, hopefully, are segregated enough to minimize the possibility of one cook running into another while carry a pot of hot soup or something like that.

Sorry, but I could not think of any way to put your new range where you would have a sight-line to the TV and still keep the range reasonably close to the SS F/F and to the prep sink and DW. They say every design involves SOME compromises tho.

Anyway, looking forward to hearing what you and your family members think.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nana walls

Bevangel, I'm really bummed right now. I've read on here for MONTHS about stories of rollercoaster remodels, and now I know what they are talking about. And, we don't even have our layout done....
We weren't sure about the support walls, so we decided to have an architect give us the straight answer. Contractors had different opinions about the walls. SO, in short, the post that is at the end of the penninsula HAS to remain. I have measured, remeasured, had wine, then measured again. There just doesn't seem to be a way to get a large table in that area. And, I really wanted to use a 10x3 harvest table.
Architect suggested moving the penninsula out three feet into the family room, putting in a long 8-10x4 foot island between the penn.and back cabinet wall, do the pantry area as you suggested, open the other wall between the kitchen and dining, and put our table there. He isn't doing any design work, just giving us the structual outlook, but made a quick suggestion as to just what he saw. He didn't address the range at all or any layout possibilities.

I LOVE those folding NANA walls, I haven't checked on the price, but they "LOOK" like they would be way out of budget! If we took that wall down though, wouldn't it be cool to have those all away accross the back of the house?

Anyway, I didn't sleep at all last night, thinking we were in a direction, then hitting a brick wall. Sorry, didn't mean to get so personal, but, after all...Tomorrow IS another day!

Thanks!

If the post stays but you move the peninsula 3 feet, was the architect thinkin' it would just sit in the middle of the floor by itself?

Susie,

Take a deep breath and don't let yourself get bummed out too easily. So far, everything is just "on paper" and figuring out how to work within the boundaries/limits of what you have is half the fun. So none of the designs we've come up with thus far will work because that post just can't be moved after all. So what? THERE IS A PLAN that will work. We just have to help you find it. And trust me, we will!

Meantime though - and this is going to sound a bit harsh but I sincerely don't mean it that way - have you asked yourself if you have the stomach for a major remodel?

The ups and downs related to designing the space are mere foothills compared to the HIMALAYA MOUNTAINS of emotional upheavals that one must go through once the pencil-and-paper work is done and the hammer-and-saw work starts. If these little foothills are keeping you up at night, how will you handle the real stomach churners???

On the other hand, if you were awake all night not because you were worried or upset but only because your brain just would not stop imagining pushing those little squares representing your fridge and oven and table around on a grid trying to find the perfect fit for all the puzzle pieces... well, that just means you too been infected with the designing bug. Welcome to the club. Lol!

Recycles a lot of cabs, but look at bedroom door
{{gwi:1757952}}
Room outline remains basically the same.
{{gwi:1757954}}
Invades the family room - not necessarily a bad thing.
{{gwi:1757956}}

Bmore, yes, when I measured what I thought he was talking about, I wondered that too. Maybe he meant two feet? Three feet really gets into the family room.

Bevangel, Does these mean that I would have to get rid of the cabinets that are along the back wall? The existing ones with the glass uppers? What is that behind the buffet in the first one? Could I put my bedroom door behind that? I said something about a big island to that architect, and he said although he's not a KD, he thought two thinner ones would work better. Don't know why. OH YEA, he said it would minimize walking around one big one. :)

Oh, and as far as having the stomach. Well, I'm beginning to wonder. BUT we spent nine years totally restoring an old farmhouse and I loved it. This will be fun (?) once the plan is made.

Would opening the wall between the kitchen and dining be useless? I don't use a formal dining, but I don't really know what to do with that space, and if we opened it up, to put the table there, it would protrude into that space but allow more options behind it like a walk in pantry.

I'm working on some drawings, have the peel and stick ordered, so maybe I can show a contribution later tonight or in the morning.

Thanks!

Oh, and Bevangel, I wanted to thank you also for pointing out the light issue with the covered porch. We decided to leave the area right behind the kitchen wall open, and cover the length of the house. Also, we decided to put two gabled pitches on that long cover to give it more heigth which will allow a little more light in.

What you learn on here is INVALUABLE! Can I repeat that often enough?
Thanks!

Susie, Hope you didn't think I'd forgotten about you! I've had my subconscious working on it all along and this afternoon had an AHA! moment that I hope you will like.

Since we can't get rid of that post - and I'm pretty sure you're going to need another one when you pull down that laundry room, I've been trying to think of a way to incorporate the posts.

I call this plan the "command center range". I think you'll see why.

Between the two posts, you build a wall that is slightly higher than a standard pony-wall but not full height (the purple line on the sketch.) The idea is to make this wall high enough so you have room for that rooster backsplash you like but low enough so you can still see over it to watch TV or talk to people sitting at the table and not have your back to things while you could. In other words, the posts and the pony wall create something mid-way between having your range on an island and having it tucked into a range niche.

The top of the pony-wall could be tiled allowing you to set small items up there and the side facing the table provide room for some sort of decorative finish as well.

The range island (command center) is shaped so that the range itself is out of the traffic circulation pattern. So no worry about a grandchild accidentally knocking into a pot handle and sending it crashing. And the two nodes of the island provide plenty of room for cooks/kibitzers to gather round the main cook who is in the center of everything.

Meantime, the second smaller island can serve as a secondary prep center, a baking center table, or a buffet serving table.

BTW, I enlarged the 7.5 ft table I had created before to be a 9 footer and that is what is shown on the plan. You could also use the 10 X 3 table you mentioned but I think this slightly shorter but wider table fits the available space a little bit better.

Hope you like it...

bumping this up in hopes Susie sees it

Interesting design. Would you use an overhead hood or downdraft venting?

hmmm, depends on the look Susie wants but if I had her kitchen I'd probably want somthing like this.

Here is a link that might be useful: copper vent hood

WOW, I really do like this. I never thought about putting the dining table over in that area! Interesting. The only thing I can see that would be a problem is the lack of pantry space. Could I build a pantry over on the blank wall in the family room (next to the window seat, and dishwasher) or maybe in that closet by the table? Would that be too far away? Having the range between the two posts would still allow for the brick look, and I'm assuming gas could be run as well in the column? (I'll check with DH on that)
And boy, aren't you in tune with me! I've been thinking "copper hood, copper hood, copper hood" LOL

I really like this bev, I think this may be the go to!
What is the three foot square behind the range? Is that the microwave and toaster area? I was thinking maybe we could put the wall oven there? Leaving the other wall for a hutch or pantry space?

How high is a pony wall? About six feet?

Thanks so much, you really have an eye for thinking outside the box.

Susie

"PANTRY? PANTRY????" she says, while smacking herself HARD on the forehead. " Duh! I shoulda known I was leaving something out..."

Cripes, I was so excited about the island I just clean forgot all about the pantry.

Let's think about this...

You COULD put a pantry in the closet behind the table or fit a pantry into the corner of the family room. Whether either of those locations would be seriously inconvenient for you kind of depends on how often you access your pantry while you are cooking. If you tend to gather everything you need in one trip, then they would probably not be a problem. If you go back and forth to the pantry constantly then either location might drive you nuts.

The big range island will actually accommodate quite a large amount of storage. I've been reading a lot of posts where people are using deep drawers in lower cabinets instead of putting doors on them. Everyone who has drawers raves about how much more useful they are for storing items because you can FIND things easier and don't have to get down on your hands and knees to search. Maybe designing drawer space under the island would get rid of any need for a pantry - except for maybe somewhere to store your mop and broom. And, for the mop and broom, that closet near the master bedroom will work just work fine.

Not sure which "three foot square behind the range" you are talking about?

The square at the bottom of the page (between the range and the living room wall) represents your current refrigerator. I left it where it was because the SS F/F are quite a long distance way from the range. I'm afraid I really don't see that SS F/F as fitting in with the overall look of your kitchen so I can't help but keep looking for a way to basically tuck them mostly out of sight. That's why they are way over in the corner and there is a wall built part-way around them so that they're not visible from the family room at all. Haven't you noticed how I keep trying to find a way to make them disappear while still giving you the convenience they offer? LOL. That's just my prejudice tho. It's YOUR kitchen so say the word and I'll move the SS F/F to the wall right behind the range which is where they would logically belong if your only concern is their usefulness.

The square to the immediate right of the current refrigerator (between current fridge and door to dining room) is just open cabinetry. Certainly the wall oven could go there. But if you move the wall oven to that location, you should also move the fridge a couple of feet over to the left so that there is some open counter space between the fridge and wall oven. (You need someplace to set a hot dish DOWN QUICK on those occasions when you are pulling something out of the oven and suddenly discover that your oven mitt has a thin spot.)

If you move the oven, you could then put in a pantry using part of the space where the wall oven is now. Once you bump out the wall to the patio, there will be about 10 feet between the exterior wall and the door into the formal dining room so that should be plenty of room for both a pantry and a hutch. Would you like me to draw it that way? What size is your hutch?

OR, you could leave the wall oven and refrigerator where they are shown and just add a pantry into the 4 ft wide space between where the oven is and the new exterior wall. You would still have room on one side of the oven to set a hot dish down. Granted, you would need to have the pantry door closed when you wanted to open the door to the patio but that doesn't seem like it would be too big a problem since most of us don't leave our pantry doors standing open all the time anyway. And besides, you would have another door to the patio that could be used.

I put the oven where it is with the idea that the smaller island would be used for prepping baked goods and having the oven over there would give you a kind of "baking center" but will be happy to redo the sketch.

I would not normally recommend having the range, oven refrigerator, and main sink spread out nearly as much as this plan shows but most cooks don't have half-a-dozen other people helping them cook and kibitzing during meal prep. So a good design for you and your family is going to be quite a bit different than a good design for most people.

Finally, a pony-wall is any wall that doesn't go clear up to the ceiling. Typically they are between 36" and 48" high but can be higher or lower. In your current kitchen you have a pony-wall supporting the bar between your kitchen and family room. It looks like it is about "standard height". I was thinking that you should put in something maybe 12 to 16 inches higher than that. You want the pony-wall to be high enough that you can fit in a nice back-splash behind your range but still low enough that you can comfortably see over it to watch TV or talk to people sitting at the table. Kind of depends on how tall you are but 6 ft is too high. Maybe 4 to 4.5 ft?

Since your current cooktop sits on the counter behind the pony-wall bar, you can judge how how you would want the new wall to be by standing at your range and stacking books on top of the bar until the height feels right to you. Then, get a piece of cardboard and stand it on edge behind the back burners of your cooktop and visualize having the card-board be your tiled backsplash.

I didn't realize you wanted a "bricked in niche" look for your range but you might be able to get that look by putting faux brick over the supporting columns. Me, I'd probably keep the columns white and put white painted bead-board on the side of the pony-wall that faces the table. In fact, I'd probably use bead-board on that entire side of the range island.

Well, about the pantry and getting everything at once. I had to smile at that because my family always throws up my "chemo brain", because I can walk to it four times before I remember what it was I went for. LOL

DH says he doesn't want to leave the other refrig in there. (It's my punishment for jumping the gun) I was thinking maybe the fridge on one side of the door and freezer on the other? BUT, don't move them YET! I like them out of the way!

I got the peel and stick design today, so, I'm going to put your layout on it and play around tomorrow. Don't know what I could do to improve it though. If I come up with something, I'll take a picture and see what you think.

Also, I think I'll go to the appliance forum and post a question about anyone having that big range in an island. I don't know why it wouldn't work, but I would like to see one done.

Thanks so much, I know it takes time.

But, it's getting CLOSER!! And, that is exciting!
I know what you mean about needing counted near the oven. Where mine is located now, I have to walk 6-8 feet with hot food, can't tell you how many times I've nearly dropped important stuff. ha
I like the idea of the drawers too. I've been reading a lot about them, and they do seem more practical. I was thinking of trying to incorporate them into the island.

Thoughts For the op,

If you do angles as shown, you need to be careful about how you lay it out. As shown, opening one of the ovens prevents opening the doors or drawers on that side of the range and visa versa.

When you're thinking this stuff out, try to remember that the range has ovens. :) You may want a third? wall oven or micro somewhere, but it won't be the main oven, you'll use the ovens in the range because of convenience (people say they work pretty well too!)

Another thing to try to remember is that a 55" range takes at least a 55" hood. You might look at pictures showing big island hoods before committing to trying to put the range in an island. I have to say I can't remember seeing anybody put this range in an island or I'd be offering a picture. It takes a bit of time, but asking around on the appliance forum about hoods this large would be a good thing to do.

You can split the ref and frzr apart from each other. If you look at bosch/thermadore/gaggenau ref columns, you can size them independently, too.

In a big place, I try to push stuff close to its point of use - so I would have dish storage and a big clean up area closer to the table. I might think out where a drinks area could be - so it didn't grown by itself in the middle of the action zone. So, maybe consider a combo bar-cleanup on the right side of the room with small drink and/or wine ref and the frzr with icemaker?

It puts a sink and drinks closer to the porch for good weather. If you grow stuff, having a sink and large counter near the door is wonderful.

Lastly, I tried to write up your kitchen goals because I found it invaluable to compare my goals to the kitchen(s) I designed for myself. I did designs I loved that made usability worse. It was good (altho tough) to compare the design to what I was trying to achieve.

So, with all due respect to bev, I don't know if this is the kitchen for you. Only you can know that. People put pressure on themselves to come up with a floor plan in a certain time frame, but take the time you need to figure it out. Living with uncertainty about the plan can be rough.

Interesting things that can help are videos of all you guys cooking. I had dh take dictation of where I went, in what order, to make a couple of common meals. Some people have spread a layer of flour on the floor before cooking and looked at the "trails". You can see how you cook and what stuff you use most often.

Knowing that plus your goals = wonderful kitchen.

Great advice bmore!

And you've posted a couple of preliminary designs as well. I personally really liked the concept you posted on Mar 25 (right beneath the darling picture of the cat with bunny ears). If you're over that horrid head cold, maybe you could develop that concept a bit more so that it takes into account Susie's 55 inch range and other already purchased appliances... and, of course, that pesky supporting column.

I'm beginning to realize that trying to keep the wall of lovely cabinetry that Susie already has - and trying to deal with a SS F/F that don't seem to fit in stylistically with them at all - may be blocking my creative juices. Would love to see some fresh ideas from other viewpoints and I'm sure Susie would to. Please feel free to join the party! Ditto to any other reader.

Bmore, you give a lot to think about. I did look in the appliance forum and can't find any 55" in an island.

I DO have a third oven, and the 36" ref/freeze. I thought about separating the two with heavy cabinetry built around them to lower the SS overload.

DH doesn't want the old frig in the kitchen, he says if I'm going to use it, then sell the monsters. :) BUT I DO LOVE the Monsters! They are shallow, well lit, and really, in real life, we use the frig/freeze more than any other appliance!

I LOVE LOVE the big walk in pantry that Bev designed, and the island with the sink and separate DW. Maybe I could still do an island like she designed with the columns, then if the range will not work there :( put it behind the island where the existing frig and wall ovens are, then put the third oven in the island? Maybe still keep a sink in the island, the walk in pantry as she first designed, then the table over by the doors? I'm just thinking outloud right now... It may be too tight for the table there. But a big huge island like that would make it accessable to the range, fridge, table and a separate prep/bake area with a sink.

DH keeps reminding me that the kids are not here ALL the time, however 2-3 times a week still constitutes designing it for those events because there's a lot of bumping going on as it is.

ALSO, He did remind me this morning that I'm always complaining that this kitchen has no place to sit at the table and look out the window while drinking my morning coffee and reading. (our other house had an L shape of window walls where the table was, and I could just change chairs each day for a different view)

I'm about to sit down with my peel and stick, (Sure wish I could figure out the computer programs) But, this way, I can move around quicker.

Bevangel, kind of like the first design you drew, but since the column has to stay, and the table wouldn't fit where you originally designed, just swapping the bake/prep area with the table? I'm rattling, I'll get to work!

Thanks so much!

It occurs to me that maybe you could still keep and use all those pretty cabinets even if you take them down from where they are currently located. If taken down carefully, they could probably be moved to new locations and put back up. If you take the row of cabinets out that is next to the living room wall, then even with the column in place you ought to have room for that long skinny table you want. Looking back at the measurements you gave me, "P" is 10'1 inch so you could easily fit a 3' wide table and chairs. Especially if no one really had to walk around the side next to the wall except to sit down.

So, maybe if you bumped out the kitchen by 6 ft like you proposed and used patio doors that open outward (which ought not to be a problem since the patio will be covered) you could do something like this? I took out the side-by-side fridge b/c there really isn't a place to put it.

{{gwi:1757960}}

This is a version, but a bit different. Huge prep island, range to wall, separate clean up area, adding a small table and a coupla stools. There are lots of things that would get decided and tidied.

There is a kinda mirror reverse elevation of the range wall underneath. The hood would be a liner inside of the (could be brick) surround. There are also two 18" units inside the surround to give you a bit of counter at each side and spice/oils storage - I just drew enough to make them look like cabinets. Pots, pans, etc. would be stored in drawer units at the side and on the angled wall - and yes, there is some interference, but not with the range. It gives the prep crew a place to set your chopped things up. It would be cool - but perhaps not necessary - to put a sink on the angle wall, to fill and dump water for the range.

Very formal cleanup area, with a smaller table or counter height table that can also be pressed into service as buffet or work space. Doubles as the official bar with (I hope a big blue martini) a drinks ref - doesn't have to be the expensive kind. Has a pass through to the new dining table and could be enlarged to a complete opening. A big storage pantry, altho not very deep - could also be two - side by side.

People who have multiple dishwashers say they like to have them in the same place. They say its too hard to run around trying to figure out what is in each one. This would work for me, because I mostly wash pots by hand and the dw is for plates, glasses and silverware type stuff. If the op thinks that's really bad, then I'd add a potwasher at the prep sink in the island and change the dual dishwashers to drawer style.

Store service pieces in the 1' deep cabs near the original sink location.

I am very definitely trading plumbing costs for function (at least it would be for me). I am completely disregarding cabinet salvage - little spendthrift that I am.

Stupid cold is still here after spending a week touring my lungs. I think between my dad's death, the preceding months of being his part time caretaker and full time news agency for the rest of my large family I had no reserves left.

Hi Susie,
I can totally relate to that support post problem. We are are integrating ours into the island and putting a in a fake one to match on the other end of the island.

I played around with this a bit using some ideas from all the above layouts (I cannot believe how creative they are). But now I think I have the posts in the wrong place. I'll post it anyway to see if it sparks any other options. The other thing is there is still lots of space behind the frig/freezer. Could use some to make the pantry a walk-in and then put more closet storage on the hallway side.

Hope it comes together for you soon!

I thank you all so much for your help! We seem to run into another problem at every turn. The contractor came yesterday and while examining the attic, just happened to notice that there are water lines in the middle of the laundry room wall. No wonder the previous owners left the room in the middle of the kitchen! We debated on whether to have them moved, but the expense will just eat up way too much of the budget! It would be a MAJOR doing.

So, we have a post to contend with, and at least a one foot section on the laundry wall where the water lines are.

I took bevangel's drawing and I've been TRYING to learn how to play with it, but I'm terrible. I'm going to keep practicing, maybe I'll get better.

But in the meantime, I "tried" to draw some concept, using what you all have come up with and adding here and there.
I put the table over by the doors, but is the space too small? Could I use french sliding doors instead of opening doors so we could put the table closer to them? And, I really wanted to keep some of the creativity you all have shown, but I don't know if what I've come up with would truly be functional.

My drawing is so kindergarden, but I know that you all will get the idea of what I'm thinking.

And that dining room on the other side of the wall that will be extended. I don't have any idea as to what to use that room for, it's 12x13 and should I open up that wall between it and the kitchen to get more room for a long table? And, have a place for a hutch? UGHH

Anway, we had the concrete poured for the laundry room on Friday. I have my first "story". They were jackhammering out the old patio, and it was LOUD. DH had a box of earplugs and he went to his workshop and got a pair for the guy using the hammer, and when he handed them to him, he looked at them funny and stuck them in his NOSE! We laughed for 30 minutes.

And, while you're laughing at that, get your next laugh...

{{gwi:1757962}}

I don't know if this will help, but these are the general rules for a table.

1. To be able to use a chair at all, the table has to be at least 32" from a wall.

2. People trying to become seated in the center need to be able get by people who are already seated seated - that's at least 36" to squeeze past or at least 44" for a more comfortable walk to their chair.

3. If you want to run an aisle - like to the patio door - behind chairs and diners, it takes about 54-60". If the table is next door to stools or a place with cabinets that open, use 60".

Speaking more specifically, given your 10' x 3' table, you need to reserve a block of space for the table and using it. How big the block is depends on what's next door. So along the window wall, we'll go ahead and use 44" and 32" for the side that isn't near anything giving a planning width of 112". For length, take the length of the table, 120", and add 60" for the side near the ref/fzr and 60" for the opposite end - assuming you have a porch door there. So the rectangle to support that size table is around 112-124" wide by 240" long.

In round terms, the table needs a space 9 to 10 feet wide and 20 feet long. The table space would need to grow a bit in width if one of the long sides butts up against cabinetry.

The total length of the area where the table could be in the plan above is 17 feet. If you remove the dining room wall to get length, you might gain some posts and maybe ask about that...

I could not for the life of me understand what part of the laundry room wall you have to keep.

Susie,

Your sketch is no more "kindergarden" than the first thing I ever drew using PAINT. Keep at it an you'll quickly get much better. BTW, I'm linking below to an on-line PAINT tutorial I found which might help you learn how to use some of the tools. Or, you can just keep playing around with it which is how I learned.

And actually, your concept sketch has great possibilities! It looks to me like you made the table 4ft wide instead of 3 ft wide. So, if you positioned the table there, you would actually have a bit more room than you show between it and the kitchen/patio wall. And I like how you made that space on the right side more squared off. I want to play with that idea!

Like bmore, I also couldn't quite understand exactly which part of the laundry room wall you will have to keep. Maybe to communicate a bit more precisely about exactly where the "non-moveables" located, you could take the sketch that I originally posted on Mar 27th and put a bright green circle or square around the 2 to 3 foot long section of the laundry room walls where that plumbing runs? Also draw one around the post that has to stay in position. (I think after I drew in a second support post, I confused some other people here as to which was the non-moveable support post and which was the extra one I added in. And, just so everybody is clear, use green and draw in where your new exterior wall will be once you bump out the kitchen. And, if there is anything else- like the door to the formal dining area, make a note on the sketch about that as well.

On the PAINT program, if you click on the little A and then click where you want to type a comment, you can put notes on the image. To keep from having a white background basically erase all the image behind your note, look in the drop-down menu under under "image" and uncheck "draw opaque". Then your notes will show up as if written directly on the image.

At this point, I would recommend against planning to take down the current dining room wall. Even without doing that, once you bump out the kitchen wall and move the laundry you will have over twice the kitchen space of any kitchen I've ever seen before. And too much space can result in just as unusable/unwieldy a kitchen as too little space. You need a big kitchen because you often have lots of helpers and kibbitzers in the kitchen. But sometimes you cook alone so we have to take that into account as well. In an overly large kitchen, if not carefully planned, one can easily wind up needing roller skates from fridge to stove to sink. LOL!

So, let's think a bit longer about what we can do with the space you already have before you decide to remove any more walls. As bmore says, no telling what kinds of issues taking yet another wall down would entail. At the very least, if your DH is like mine, it would entail a HUGE FIGHT with him. ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Microsoft Paint tutorial

Thank yall SO much!

Wow, Bmore, that is a lot for a table! I'm breaking ALL the rules! You should have seen us all trying to squeeze into the 6 foot table up against a wall yesterday. Thank goodness we have a separate table for the grandkids!

You're right Bev, I can see where it could get too big. Sometimes, it seems too big already. But, I really paid attention yesterday, and I think a second sink is an absolute must, DH will just have to kick and scream. Plus, he was trying to keep the kids pleased while we cooked, so it seemed as if he was always in the way getting them drinks, wipes to clean up their messes, and all the while trying to watch EVERY minute of the Captain rescue!

I did as you asked, and labeled the drawing. Think I'm getting a little better at it. Of course you know, other than the post, and that dang water line, I'm now fairly positive anything else can be moved.

And, yes, you're right, it could cause MORE friction if I go to more moving walls! But....he said...LOL

I'm feeling a lot of hope!

OH, and one other thing that might be important! I guess I could get away with an eight foot table, if that would make a difference. Won't an eight foot seat 10? And, I do have a nice little farm table for the kids, but it doesn't need to be in the kitchen all the time. I can just bring it in when they are here. (which is often, but, it's not hard to move)

Hope you all had a lovely Easter Sunday.

Here's the newly labeled drawing...

{{gwi:1757963}}

{{gwi:1757965}}
Island can be a bit bigger. Can do any combination of windows and french doors. Probably can't reuse a significant quantity of cabs.

Traded the double bowl sink for a single bowl prep sink with an integral drain board since it will not be the dishes clean up area - moved to the former laundry space.

Former dining room becomes "library" with a desk that can double as an overflow table area.

Not sure about the placements of everything - closer to a concept sketch.

Bmore, thanks for coming up with this. I think most of it would work, you kept the ref/freezer back out of the way of them becoming the "eyesore".

The thing I want to try to incorporate if at all possible is that large walk-in pantry that bevangel sketched. That space behind my bedroom is such a dead space, it seems to me that would be a very practical and useful idea for it.

Also, where the range is located. Would it be too close to the doorway to put it where my current refrigerator and double ovens are now? That way, I wouldn't lose the cabinet wall that I have now, and it would save on having to spend money on changing cabinets that I don't "think"? need to be changed? Maybe just the doors? The bottom cabinets have a tray storage, pullouts, and a lazy suzan in the corner, plus a LOT of drawers.

It's hard, because it seems like it should be enough room to get everything in that I set out to do, however, I had no idea it would end up getting so complicated. See, my FIRST thought at a remodel was to 1)get the range I love, 2)an extra oven, 3)the frig/freezer was an unexpected purchase, 4)new countertops, 5)flooring, 6)farmhouse sink, 7)GET RID OF THE LAUNDRY FOR THAT BIG TABLE!

NOW, I want everything changed.

If I put the range where the frig and ovens are now, if it's too close to that door to the dining, I could move that door down. Here I am thinking too loud.

I keep looking in these kitchen magazines, and think "that would work", but is that the wrong place to be looking?

All of these beautiful kitchens on GW are so inspiring, I keep looking at them over and over!

Kitchen mags are most helpful for styles and the occasional placement idea.

Can we move the bedroom door at all? I thought bevangel asked earlier but the answer was its a brick wall? I can get you a big walk in if I can move the ref/fzr/ov.

If it was my kitchen, I would trade the oven and the ref. I rarely use three ovens so I wouldn't really care where the third oven is - if it was by the table, I could use it as a plate warmer. I get stuff out of the ref dozens of times cooking for a crowd. I don't cruise the freezer more than once a day - so I'd place it near a drinks area where an icemaker would be useful.

Bmore, yes, the bedroom door can be moved. It can be moved on either wall, really. There's no more brick there, DH took it off today. :)

And, I agree, as HE pointed out just the other day, we use the Frig more than any other appliance in the house. And, the freezer, I use it just to get out ice. Well, of course if I'm getting out something to thaw, but that isn't often.

The third oven is for convenience. The range has small ovens, and I was leary of the size, so a big oven was for the comfort factor. And watch, I'll probably rarely use it.

I'll try again after I stop laughing about the brick! I dying to ask if you just came home and found him doing it?

You're going to just love that range. I don't have one, but just about everyone in the appliance forum who does just loves it.

Thanks so much to you all, it's getting down to crunch time, DH is tired of waiting on me. (obviously) But, I want to get it right! And, I was cleaning house yesterday when I heard some banging, went to see what all the racket was, and he had his hammer and chisel breaking brick!

Yes, I'm anxious to get that range. I've never seen one, nor heard of one until I stumbled on to here. My whole reasoning for a remodel was to get that 48" WOLF I've dreamed of for so many years. But, after seeing that Lacanche in pictures, it was just "me". DH thinks I've absolutely lost my mind. Changing it, then on top of that, not even seeing one in person and in action! I'm blaming it on menopause. He can never argue with me on that topic!

Thanks so much, I see such great things on here, Just hope I'm not being difficult.

I'm lost in a wonderful kitchen, family room, spaces and neat stuff...

will take some time to soak it all in. wow.

wow - I'm way behind on keeping up with all of the changes - but before I forget what I'm thinking - here goes (and someone might have already posted some/any/or none of it)

if you open up into the dining area (w/LR) that would help a lot. put the big table there. maybe enlarge the window off to the patio area.

then you could put the big frzr/fridge on the wall (old pantry) that says 'cab' (backed up to the msg center area).

Put that super big range on the far wall of the 'old pantry' and there should be room on either side for some counter top with the counter turning around to the wall along the back patio - where you could put another DW and prep sink - with windows all above that for more light.

keep (redo?) the penisula where you face into the FM - you like that and it's usable when not too many people are there (well, usable either way). Cozier when all the kids / gkids aren't there. nice usable space when maybe just a gkid or 2 stay over. OR you could change it a bit and make it into an island in that area with a hang over area and stools. (not the 'I'm drunk' hang over tho...)

I'd have to scan back up to see what moving the table to the other dining space does to that 'was there' wall in the kitchen and placement of the fridge / micro tho. then I'd lose my place on this thread and spend valuable reading time searching for it again... lol!

again - wow - what a space to have to use - what a kitchen!

OH BTW - I'm in AZ - we have very, very hot summers. Skylights are not a problem tho... my sister has one in her kitchen (had one in her old kitchen) and I have one in my new (soon to be) kitchen. does it get hotter'n 120 in the summer there?? If you think it might be a problem (not used to it) I'm sure they can be fitted with a blind (remote controlled). They can also open for air (again remote controlled).

a couple of ceiling fans would help also.

ok, once again posting before i forget what I'm thinking -

bev - I lOOOOve the command center LO! awesome.

the drawers under counter instead of doors are great. my gf put those in her kitchen and loves the drawers! My sister had mostly drawers - and looooves them. They keep pots/pans in drawers between range and wall ovens.

I'm putting all drawers in mine (other than under sink and lazy susan corner). Much easier access.

and if you all have that huge hail often, maybe a skylight isn't for you. we've had hail here but just a time or 2 in my 26 yrs here.

whew - I'm gonna go back and see what changes you've made now... maybe opened up into the formal dining area? that'd make one heck of a walk in pantry - or just using part of it for a walk in. turn the other part into a study / reading area, computer / desk area.

I'm one to want to hide the big frzr/fridge also. just doesn't seem to go in a regular kitchen. Not something I'd be using thru-out the normal day. It'd be extra food storage for those large gatherings and frozen stuff.
could go in a walk in pantry if one is put into the LO.

you realize I'm not getting any cleaning done today?

"in real life, we use the frig/freeze more than any other appliance"

then the fridge part needs in the mix! maybe just enclose it on the sides to cut down the SS? it won't look so big if not w/ frzr. put freezer and extra oven in 'other' area - for drinks etc? the ice will be there... maybe by the walls with the water lines?
I've been so late to this 'party'! lol!

I don't think you are being difficult. This is a very important part of your remodel! It takes time to figure it all out - and you have a huge space and a lot to figure out!

mine is very small (10x10?) lol! still, I go around and around... this, that, the other... ugh!

also something I do when my brain gets cluttered with cabinets, counter tops, appliance placement - I shut it off and go do something else. which is often watching all the remodels on tv - for ideas, short cuts, fixes etc that might be usable or prepare me for the mess i'll be in...

I often find some 'fix' will pop into my head when I'm out watering the plants, feeding the dogs, doing dishes etc

hang in there!

{{gwi:1757967}}

I apologize for the lateness. I suddenly got called out. You hang in there and keep working at it until you get the kitchen you want.

Well, DH made me leave this weekend, get away from the computer, and clear my mind of the muck! (It didn't, I thought about it all the time)

Thanks so much, desertsteph for your input, your interest, and certainly your IDEAS! I'm reading, and rereading all you said, and really taking it in.

And bmore, hope you didn't get called out for anything serious, I know you have a full plate right now. I like your layout, maybe like you said, make the island a little bigger, put a sink in it, so we would have an actual separate prep zone for that oven?

We stopped this weekend and looked at a few houses. It's hard to imagine any details when the layout is still so up in the air.

Bmore, where you have the oven, is that a full wall? The table may work better running that way if it can't fit in that 17 foot area.

GC suggested that after he finishes the back wall addition, we go ahead and take the laundry room out, and live with it open for a few days, taking a look at the actual space, visualizing from the area to the family room, and he thinks I might get a better idea of how the space will work after it's opened up.

I told him about you all, and he said it sounded like a great place to get different options, and he really doesn't think I need to go get a KD to come in and actually look at the space, he said it sounded like I know what I want, it's just a placement issue, and many heads would be more beneficial than a KD. That's really what I think, because we won't be buying cabinets, or any other materials through one, I *think* I know what I want. LOL

Again, thank you all more than you know!

ah thx susie! I've learned so much in my short time on here - enough to know i should put my remodel off til I've lived in the space for a time. If that option is available to a person, they should take it. I went back Monday and looked at my place and it's not near as bad as I thought it was - it's very livable so that's what I'm going to do. Best way to know how you use a space! reading the posts on here and you figuring what to put where based on your kids being there and helping etc (not that I'll have that - your kids wouldn't want to come help me cook! lol!) caused me to decide to wait. It's just too important (and expensive) to rush it.

and I think your gc is right - once that laundry is out and you can really see (and 'walk') the space, it'll make a difference.

will be watching for updates on your remodel!

Thanks, desertsteph! I really have a "good" kitchen. It's just tight in space when the kids are here, (often), and no place for a large table. It definitely needs new paint, countertops, sink, range, and ovens, and those are all decided upon.

I always wanted a 10' table, but, I'm rethinking it, maybe get an 8', with an extension? So that we can use that 17' addition as the eating area.

I LOVE Bevangel and bmore's layouts. They are very creative.

And, I've been on here for about a year, then decided it was time. This place will motivate you, and inspire you. Good luck on your decisions too!

Hi again. Sorry to have disappeared on you. Family emergency took me out of town for ten days and ever since I got back home, I've been working overtime just to try and get my desk unburied from everything that piled on while I was gone. Nother day or two and I should have things under control again (I hope!)

I REALLY REALLY like bmore's last sketch! I think she is really onto something there. Soon as I get some free time I want do that one to scale on my design program and get a better idea how things fit.

More soon...

I'm glad if we have all been of some assistance.

I would argue for the kd, tho. Even when you know roughly what you want, a ckd can be wonderful in finishing it and bringing another viewpoint to the space - they have the advantage of seeing the actual space. Pictures are great, but its not the same as standing in the room.

There are hundreds of details in a project like this and a kd can get that all organized (I'd be praying for them to get ME organized). They can also be a translator - to and from contractor speak. I'm not disrespecting your contractor in any way, it's just that good ckds insure that you know what you're getting and plan out every detail and produce drawings for you to visualize the new space with your stuff in it.

With the caveat that my kitchen might fit in your laundry room, we did our kitchen planning ourselves - and made some mistakes - the primary one being not allowing for the change in the finished height of the flooring. It gets tough figuring out everything from cabinet heights to switch plate covers.

If all you've ever met are cabinet sales people, good designers can be a revelation. Maybe ask around and see if people here have used a ckd they were happy with in your area. Interviewing one or two can't hurt.

Hi Bevangel, been wondering where you were. Hope your situation isn't serious and you are at home with peace. Glad to see you back.

Yes, Bmore has some very good stuff too. I've been working on sketches, but haven't come up with anything proud enough to share! :)

Bmore, I had a designer come out on Wednesday. She isn't a KD, so I wouldn't get details, but I just wanted to get an inhome perspective, like you said, someone actually seeing the space. Any KD actual KD would have to come from 50-100 miles away, and I just figued that expense would eat too much of the budget. But, I'm beginning to wonder.

This lady suggested taking the wall down between the kitchen and dining, putting my bedroom door in that 6 foot extension, putting in an island, putting the freezer where the water lines are in the laundry room, the fridge on the other side, and a cabinet/coffee area with sink in the middle. A pantry behind them, with the pantry door on the side where my bedroom door would be. (the fridge/freezer wall would be about three feet out from the bedroom wall) and depending on the size of the pantry, she thinks I could incorporate a study behind that. (where the hot water tank, AC, and closet are) The range would be on the wall Bmore suggested, and she said I could wrap the brick in the living around into the kitchen for the range. She did a quick sketch, but nothing detailed, and I've been working on that, along with what yall have suggested.

Contractor needs to know where I want the door framed by Tuesday, and I'm thinking regardless of the layout, where it is right now.

Thanks so much, I was hoping you all were still here!