As for the 0.05% offered by the MB bank ... that's pre-tax income, don't forget. Plus ... one needs to shift part of current interest earnings over to the principal amount, in order to offset the erosion of value of each dollar-denominated invested dollar due to inflation. One of ole joyful's theme songs over the years of being a personal financial advisor, "What's better than putting your money into a bank? Buying a piece of the bank". Recently amended to, " ... buying a piece of a Canadian bank" ... better regulated. None of them have gone under ... or are about to. But the one in which I bought shares 42 years ago for about $4.20 and whose value had risen to $107. or so each in June '07 ... ... was exposed to the U.S. financial fiasco ... ... and after the fallout was finished (well, up till now, anyway) was down to about $40.00, late fall last year ... back to about $60.00 now. But pays about 30 times the rate of (tax-advantaged) dividend that it did when I bought it. And employment earnings, pensions (above a minimal deductible amount) and interest earnings are taxed at top rate, around here. How about buying a chunk of an oil well? Gold mine? When there's huge debt, and major deficit, plus bailouts, overhanging a currency, it's at some serious risk. And when the country fires up the printing presses to print more, that adds to the risk. Maybe move some assets offshore - but risky if to Canada, for when you guys get a sniffle ... we get pneumonia! ole joyful

If you figure that you're going to need that CDIC back-up, better put your money into a small bank, for several banks have failed and I think that quite a few feel that if a fair-sized bank goes broke, the CDIC till will be bare. Being a gov't. agency, there'd likely be back-up, but that would cause substantial delay, quite likely ... and incur more debt for the U.S. gov't., which has taken on far too much, now. As most of that debt is held abroad, they'll have to start paying higher rates in order to entice lenders to buy their debt instruments ... and have been printing money, with the likelihood that they'll be printing a whole lot more, soon. These mortgage-initiating rascals in recent years sure make a bank robber carrying his loot in a pillowcase look like pretty small potatoes. I remember as a kid, when I learned to ride a bicycle down our country road, wishing that the gravel on the road would become gold ... but it didn't take me long to realize that if it were gold for me, it would be for everyone else, as well ... and that soon it would take more than a pocketful of gold to buy a loaf of bread. How long has it been since the U.S. Dollar was backed by gold? Or silver? Our Dollar - same game. And - when your economy gets a cold ... ours gets pneumonia. What's the expected time-frame when you'll need to use those assets? Almost 10 years ago, when I was 70, I called a financial planner on a phone-in radio show to say that I felt that I should plan to fund my life to age 100, which was six blocks of five years each. Fortunately, I was able to live on somewhat less than my three pensions, and expected to be able to do so for some time - now, 10 years later, same story. But it seemed to me that were I to need some of the assets to live on, I should not eat up all of the first block in the first five years, for it would no longer be there to earn some income for my future needs. In fact, I thought that I should try to avoid using any more than that first block of the six in the first 10 years ... especially considerig that inflation would cause me to need more dollars to live the same lifestyle, a few years down the road. You know - that "inflation" that has shrunk the value of each one of our dollars-in-hand in every year since the late 1930s. And money in the bank is like money-in-hand: each dollar of the principal doesn't grow (but it sure does shrink). Which means that I would not plan to use up 83% of my asset during that first 10 year period, and that a number of financial advisors feel that purchasing stocks for more than a 10-year time horizon makes sense. He said that my plan made a lot of sense, in his view. Short-term, if we fear losing capital, we need to invest in guaranteed dollars ... but long-term, those guaranteed dollar investments, after paying tax, and adding some to principal in order to maintain purchasing power, leave little for the investor. If anything. Now, at 80, I carry about 80% of my assets in equity-based investments. That would make many people have a hairy ... but I feel comfortable with it. Yes, I have some losses, but I have some gains, as well ... and the tax structure here encourages holding equities. A single taxpayer with no income but dividends on Canadian stocks can earn over $46,000. before being required to pay ONE CENT of income tax (and having a low-income spouse with transferrable credits, or gifts to charity or a political campaign, or eligible medical/dental bills over 4.5% [in that case - 3% ordinarily] of net income will push that $46,000.+ tax-free income level even higher). Some time ago, I wrote a thread either here or on "Money Saving Tips", I think, asking which ordinary person gained from inflation, and who loses. When you put your money in the bank, say $10,000., 15 years ago, they guaranteed to pay you back every dollar, in addition to the rent on the money. There's another guarantee, that they never mention - they won't pay you one dollar more, either. And the value of each of those dollars has shrunk, in every one of those 15 years ... as it has every year since the 1930s. That $10,000. would have bought a nice car, 15 years ago ... not now. I figured a while ago, when I could borrow at 6.25%, that most of the time I could come close to breaking even on such a loan, using it to purchase quality stocks. So ... now, when I can borrow for 4.75%, breaking even should be an even greater probability, no? If I'd borrowed your $10,000. from the bank, 15 years ago and paid only the interest in the years since (which I would never recommend, on a consumer loan) .................................................................................................................................................... ................................... when I go into the bank to pay off the loan, now, how much will I need to pay? Yes - $10,000. Which they will give to you, to pay off your CD, if you ask. I gained from inflation, because I paid off the loan in depreciated dollars - you lost, since each of those dollars would buy less than when you loaned it out to the bank, 15 years ago. The only value that your money would ever produce, relative to each of those years, was made right then ... and it was taxed - then ... and, in Canada, it's taxed at top marginal rate. When I used those borrowed dollars to buy quality (retirement type) stocks, and since I came close to breaking even each year on the loan that I made, on average, over the last fifteen years, my investment in stocks grew quite a lot, so now, when I sell them, after paying off the loan, I have quite a lot of money left in my pocket. Which asset was built with your money, not mine. Granted - if the stocks went down in value - I had to find the money somewhere else to pay back to the bank. But, as you know ... they didn't. And, over a time horizon of 10 years or so, they haven't. And a bonus for me - as the value of those quality stocks went up ... so did the annual rate of dividends that they paid. When I bought shares in a Canadian bank 41 years ago for $4.20 or so (also referred to below), they produced annual dividends of about a dime or 12 cents per year: now they pay $3.48. As the number of dollars in a CD doesn't change over the years ... the amount of interest that they produce doesn't change much, either. But - my investment in shares of a Canadian bank have gone from $106. in May, 2007 to just over $62.00 now ... why? They put substantial amounts into those sub-prime U.S. mortgages ... and that "asset-backed commercial paper" ("acid-backed commercial paper"??) that some of the U.S. financial scoundrels were peddling. That now the U.S. government, which can't afford to, is going to partially bail them out of. As some say - socialism for the rich ... private enterprise for the low-level guys who get stuck with the bill ......................... when the rich guys pull a big-time goof (but the rich guys get to keep their previously ill-gotten loot). Remember the savings and loan fiasco of, what, 20 years or so ago? Have you given thought to how much it has cost for the Mccain-Obama campaign over the past couple of years? Where do you figure that money came from? Apart from the costs associated with running for Congress or the Senate, etc. Good wishes for increasing skill in managing your income ... and your assets. ole joyful

These darn association fees can be a real PITA. We own a dockominium. A couple years ago, a Nor'easter from H@ll blew through & when the foam was gone from the water...so was our bulkhead. No choice. It had to be repaired & quickly. We weren't the only ones with damage to bulkheads, seawalls, etc. so contractors were hard to get & charging outlandish prices. The repair costs were, of course, put through the association as special assessments. Yikes! We also have a few owners who don't pay their dues. Fortunantly, they are few in number. At our annual meeting, we always discuss the possibility of using legal action but nobody will ever stick their hand in the air to actually vote to go after somebody since we're all friends & boating partners. Tough situation. Insurance of all types has gotten soooo expensive in the past 3-5 years. I imagine you're right, chisue, that the insurance would cost more than you could collect. Being a marina, we have EPA issues to insure. Wow, insuring against the possibility of an oil spill has become almost prohibitive for the smaller associations. Insurance for individual owners? Sure, some insurance company will write a policy for darn near anything. The catch is finding the one that will & at what cost? You should have what your association is holding in reserves. It'll be with the papers you received at your annual meeting. The entire association budget & cash flow statement will be included in the package. Check out each line item. I have to agree with your thinking that nonpayment of condo fees is going to become a problem in 2008-2009. Even if eventually payment resumes there's that 'never never land' between when an owner defaults & the lender forecloses. That can take many months during which time no association fees are paid. After foreclosure, most lenders will bring the fees current but, again, it could take awhile. I'll keep my eyes open for info filtering in on this issue. It's one I hadn't given much thought to before this thread.... /tricia

Remember the old saying in the stock market, "Sell in May ...and go away!"?? Good advice again this year, it seems. Though October has brought bad news, on several occasions, over the years, one would have thought that to be an improbable scenario this year, what with a big election in the offing ... but it was true again this year. Anyone game for some financial shenanigans? You should have a five to ten year time horizon for such a project as this, but it could work out in as low as three years. Canadian dollar was at par a few months ago, now about 85 cents U.S. buys a Canadian dollar, as people whose money'd fled the U.S. earlier, returned after the recent govt. support: does "BBB" now stand for "Broke Bankers' Bailout"? A recent survey says Canadian banks are among the solidest of the industrialized world, and much of the Canadian market is based on resource stocks, which have taken a hit lately ... but does anyone think that petroleum stocks are going to stay down for the long term? Other resources, including gold, either. Have certificates for some of your mutual funds that you plan to hold for a long time issued, likely at no fee, or some individual stock certificates, usually at a fee here of $50. or so each. Use your certificates, and CDs (preferable, as their value stays constant) if available, as collateral for a fully-secured loan at your favourite (i.e. low-rate) lender. If your lender is willing to lend up to 50% of the value of the underlying asset, consider borrowing up to possibly $30.00 per $100.00 of equity (which means that if the value of those assets drops by 40% to $60.00, you will still be covered 2:1). When the amount of your loan goes to over 50% of the current value of the underlying asset, the bank comes to ask you for either more collateral (stock, mutual fund certifs., CD, etc.) ... or to pay off some of the loan to restore the 50% loan level, called a "margin call" - and that's today ... tomorrow at the latest. I don't want to get one of them, and never have. If you don't have extra collateral on hand, or cash to pay down some of the loan ... don't crowd the margin level! Such extra assets are more likely to be available to folks nearing retirement, as it's probable that they have various investments, and more of them, available to use as collateral if needed. As in gambling, the gal/guy with the good hand who has surplus assets can keep raising as s/he feels appropriate. Maybe buy some quality U.S. stocks whose price has been beaten down recently, plus some Canadian stocks ... oil and gas, pipeline, minerals, rail, possibly a bank ... and some gold? These are some representative Canadian stocks: I'm not saying that they're the best choice. Suncor (SU.TO) has a substantial position in the tar sands with Syncrude, share price 59, 60, 55 at mid year, 26 in early Oct., now about 25. Putting money into development of more cost-effective ways to pull the oil out of the sand, it pays 0.20, 0.75%. Petrocan (PCA.TO) was 54, 52, 48 at mid year ... 23.70 early Oct., now 25. Pays 0.59 - 2.29%. Nexen (NXY.TO) was 38, 36, 34 ... 14.01 early Oct., now 16.46, 19.14 ... 18.90 last Fri - now 17.95. Pays 0.15 - 0.84%. En Cana (ECA.TO) (one of largest suppliers of natural gas) was 89, 83, 78 ... now 55, 61, 58.15 (Fri) 56.94 (Tue). Pays 1.431 - 2.51%. ________________________ Some companies turned into unit trusts several years ago, agreeing to pay out about 85% of earnings, and avoid tax ... but when some big cos. (e.g. Canada's largest phone co.) planned to do that ... the gov't cut them off at the pass ... said they'd all have to turn into corporations by 2011.(1) Canadian Oil Sands (COS-un.TO) major player with Syncrude in the tar sands, containing more oil than in Saudi ... in 1st qtr. '08 was 32 - 46, in 2nd qtr. was 40 - 54, in 3rd qtr. 38 - 54, as low as intra-day 23 in early Oct., now 26.76. Pays $3.55, 12.6% ... possible revision downward? Pengrowth (PGF-un.TO) was 18.13, 17.93, 17.70 ... 9.62 early Oct., now 12.00 ... annual payout over $2.00 per unit - but don't count on that level being maintained. I own a few units ... thinking of buying more. Enerplus (ERF-un.TO) was 46, 44, 41 ... 25.50 in Oct. ... now 28.28 ... pays about $5 (about 18%) annually per unit - probably also due for adjustment downward, due to oil price drop. Their rep is to speak to an investment group in our city tonight, so I've been doing some checking. __________________________________ Potash (POT.TO) (potash fertilizer, in major ongoing international demand to increase agricultural yields) 213, 223, 211 in summer ... 102 in early Oct., now 95 - 97 ... payout about 0.421, about 0.43%. Check their multi-year chart. Teck Cominco (TCK-B.TO) (base metal miner-processor) I bought at 35 early Jan, was 50 in May, 45, 41 in summer, 16.36 early Oct., 11.28 last Fri (payout 1.00 - about 8.75%), 8.75 Tues. (payout over 10%): I've been thinkig of buying more ... watching it closely. Several of our major mining companies bought out, owned offshore, shares no longer avail. to us ... I figure that this one may be a candidate ... especially at low price per share. That usually causes share price rise of 10 - 25%, even 35% overnight. TD Canada Trust (TD.TO) (one of our 6 national banks) was 63, 58, 58, 60 in summer, 52 early Oct., now 55.86 maintained its value about the best during the U.S. sub-prime problems ... they run a smart ship ... paying about 4%. CN Rail, one of our two major national railroads, recently bought substantial U.S. trackage ... shares not avail. in Canada - cf. CNI on NYSE. Enbridge (ENB.TO) (major pipeline) 44, 44, 43 ... early Oct was 35, now is about 40 (I've owned it about 14 years, turned 75 to upwards of 480 during that period). Pays some over 3%. TransCan. Corp. (TRP.TO) (major pipeline, plus) was 38, 37, 38 ... 31 in Oct, now 35 ... payout about 4%. Check stocks' info at Yahoo-> Finance, near top left enter symbol in small dialogue box, "Get quotes" to get much current info ... or give company name to get symbol. Chart at lower right shows price movement today and clicking on letters under the chart allows viewing charts over several days, months and years. At some below top left, clicking on "Historical prices" allows one to view daily open, high, low and close prices, plus dividend payouts, back several years for some stocks. Also daily volume ... which is often quite a lot higher when stock price near a top or a bottom. When stocks are at bargain prices ... if I can borrow to invest, fully secured, at 4.75%, paying interest only monthy and deductible ... and earn 4% (taxed at very low rate) ... and I gain the value of inflation ... that looks like a worthwhile opportunity. So - prices drop some more, later? If they stay down for a while, I may whimper a bit, as I could have bought later and enjoyed the substantial runup over the next few years ... but suppose the market is near bottom now? Not much use showing up at the station after the train has pulled out! Best to buy on several occasions as one believes the market to be nearing bottom, as it's volatile, then, making several false starts back up. I hope that you're all enjoying fall. I was picking some mature peas and beans yesterday plus radish pods for seed, moving some squash into the barn, lifting some beets ... and my fingers were doing some complaining, as it was a few degrees above freezing. More beets, turnips and carrots to lift today. Broccoli seems to be minimally affected by frosts, still producing (mainly small sized) florets - but that'll soon be through. ole joyful P.S. Want a real gamble? Our major phone co., Bell Canada, covering 2/3 of total Canadian population in Ontario and Quebec, more or less widows' and orphans' stock, wanted to go unit trust, then gov't. changed rules to block them. Then BCE (BCE.TO) made a deal with a major pension plan and buyout artist, backed by billions of loans from several banks, to buy out shareholders at $42.75 and go private ... when stock price in low 30s ... stock price went to about $39., but somewhat below the offering price, and usually price jumps to right up near the offer price. That was just before the U.S. subprime mortgage barnyard byproduct hit the fan, which problem led to this issue's huffing and puffing, lawsuits by current bondholders, etc., and several delays in the time for the deal to be consummated. Stock price continued around 39 - 40 through the end of '07. I'd bought some at about 28 a couple of years ago,and felt that, with the deal to go through in a few months, to buy some more about 38 last Christmas looked like a good idea. Early in this year the stock price began slipping, and the date of completion was postponed ... plus the company decided to suspend paying dividends. Stock was just over 35 at the end of June, recovered to 40s in August, then down again to 33 in early Oct., recovered to about 37 now ... with deal to have been completed in early Nov. ... that's ... of this year. One of the backers is the Royal Bank of Scotland, which recently received an infusion of credits from the Bank of England ... so are they going to be willing/able/allowed to complete a substantial deal ... in the (former) colony ... any time soon? Price closed at 37.90 Tuesday Nov. 11 ... want to take a chance on the deal completing, at the originally agreed price of $42.75, any time soon? o j