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Porches & Decks

Ipe EBTY clips and grades of Ipe????

15 years ago

Replacing a 'Mahogany' deck which has cupped, split, cracked etc with Ipe. Hot sun all day long on a Connecticut hillside. I know the clips get trashed in this forum often, but wondering if the grade of Ipe would help prevent cupping issues etc. Can anyone help me by explaining the 'grades' of Ipe? And giving their 2 cents on the clips for higher grades of Ipe?

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Comments (5)

melissaproulx
Original Author
15 years ago
any experiences with tiger claw fasteners?
john_hyatt
15 years ago
Dont use the clips,dont even think about using tigerclaw bang them in wham bam thank you mamm foolishment.

Grade with ipe is a highly garded info subject in the short form you have to trust your supiler or buy local and go see the stuff your own self. Many kinds of trees can be passed off as ipe.

But say a Person bought some ipe from say George at East Teak, got quality stuff, stickered it up with fans blowning thru the stack for hmmmmm 30 days or so, installed it perfectly with even the ss insert clips construstion adhesive, perfect spacing, perfect weather, perfect angle with the screw, perfect... ok I am on a rant here. A person still looks down and sees the clip and the screw, And still has the risk happening to them, as several posters over here are questioning , with the high grade ipe lifting from the joists, warping up, and generaly in a fit because ipe wants to lay flat but it cant because it wasent securaly fastened to the frame so its intent to be good cant happen!

Why do you Folks still want to use the clips????????

JohnThey are made from solid stainless steel,of course thats not good ss is not strong enough so they would have to do what Hilti came up with building ss tapcons steel with a high grade ss coating. They provide info on install including ground clearance,cross ventalation,weather conditions,moisture, what kind of construstion adhesive to use, angle of the screw and where to put it ( this is something we all need to know).

Boys and Girls,,its not gunna happen!! Face fasten,pre drill twice and plug the holes or install T&G material for the no fastener showing look.

Its the ol John Mon, I am thinking I will not get involved with clip posts any longer,adding them to the deck finish posts, there is no complete logic with the thinking wanted, and too many people are saying things 180 degree from each other. J
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Jan, I have built a lot of Ipe decks, but I have never used a "hidden fastener" system. Although I have no experience with the various systems, I do know Ipe. Some boards will be bowed, and can be straightened...but will a few plastic clips be able to hold them in place? Sun/rain/snow will conspire to make those boards want to move, cup and shrink. When they do shrink and cup, those clips won't be too hidden, and you may end up with loose boards that rattle when you walk on them. I face screw all of my decks (2 per joist). I primarily use the brown colored #8 "Headcote" trimhead stainless steel screws...2.5". They are pricey, but worth every penny, as they blend in with the Ipe very nicely. I plug about 10% of my decks for clients that want truly hidden fasteners. When I plug, I use a beefier screw (#10 2 3/8" dekker screws from mcfeelys.com) with a bugle head...they will hold Ipe in place like no other screw. Plugging is time consuming, but I build in Brooklyn, and urban decks are much smaller than those outside of the city. You said your deck is large, but never gave dimensions. Face screwing may or may not be more expensive or time consuming than clip installation, but it is the best way to hold down Ipe. Do you deserve the best? steve
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Back in the old days of ipe. There was a Guy puting down 5/4 ipe with a 16 g trim nailer over adhesive. This was from a site that got shut down by the spamers, you know Steve. Anyway I dident think the gun could do it until I tried. and it would do it with a counter sink even. The thing is it would do it a few times. Going thru ipe is really hard on the tool so with my test it took several driver replacments to even get some production going at all. Then there was the inbetween times when it was worn out a little and started shining the nails up about a 1/4''. So everything had to stop to repair the tool and pull those stupid little nails out,a chore all by itself, and start again. I also had to wait on the compreser to be up to full 120 lb before pulling the trigger or the nails would shine up for that reason too. All and All its a stupid thing to do, even if a Person could make it work there is no reason to trust that kind of fastening on Ipe. J.
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Deck guy finally came and met with us this morning. He sounds like he wants to fix the lower deck, but it isn't clear that he knows what to do. We've got him to see that he needs to raise the deck up off the ground, so there is some room for cross-ventilation. (As an aside, this deck gets full sun exposure, which is great for us but not so great for any wood sitting there).... We suggested, when he wasn't really coming up with anything, raising the deck up the equivalent of one step, and then adding that step back by the pool, and also pulling the deck back away from the pool. So there are still problems: 1. he says he doesn't want to go with face fasteners/IPE plug combination, because it won't let the wood move - but then he says he wants to fasten the IPE by running a bead of PL400 (some kind of glue??) and then just use a trim gun to kind of keep the wood in place while the glue is drying??? Somehow, I just don't get why this would be better than face fastening... 2. he did at one point mention something that sounded like John's floor vents - that he had used before somewhere else - which begs the question of why in the world he didn't put those vents in this framing that he had sitting right on the ground..... aaggghhhhhh 3. if we go with step down to the pool, then is there some kind of vent we can put in the facing that goes from the horizontal part of the step to the 'ground', to get ventilation that direction? sorry I don't know the technical terms for the parts of the step.... 4. since we are doing this over, we should get the ventilation right - have cross-ventilation, shouldn't we? we had to push him for that. and shouldn't we go with face fastening/IPE plugs rather than gluing??? 5. he wants to go with 1x4 instead of 1x6 boards, but I said that wouldn't decrease any cupping, but just make it harder to see any cupping... (we are talking about new wood as we can't reuse anything down there now.... zapped by the combination of no cross-ventilation, hot sun and EBTY clips not holding.... Comments are welcome. He's coming back to me on Wednesday with his proposal for what he wants to do.... I would like to know what we should tell him is okay and what is not.... Sure wish one of you guys were closer to Fairfield County, CT.... Then I could really find out exactly what we should do....
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I agree with John, do not use pre-grooved material for the hidden fastening systems. Here's one thing a lot of people fail to realize: The demand for Ipe is very high right now, our exchange rate is low, this means that mills down in South America don't really want to hold on to any inventory, so basically as soon as it passes through the molder it's in a container and on the water, not allowing for proper drying time when it's immediately cut. Distributors of Ipe here in the U.S. aren't drying this material either, it's already stickered and palletized, ready for prompt shipment. If you groove Ipe and use hidden fasteners you're dealing with wood that has the potential to move (twist, bow, etc.) Ipe will move if not fastened securely and hidden fasteners only gap the boards slightly, so the chances of shrinking and popping the clips are likely as well as expanding and buckling boards could result also. Plus those things are so expensive (milling, Ipe and clips) and it would be a waste to see you have to replace something that should never require any replacing. As far as ventilation is concerned, I know a lot of people who push the envelope when putting this stuff down. Generally anything closer than 18" is considered ground contact but my advice is to get rid of the hidden clips and choose to face fasten using flathead s.s. screws as there is much more holding power.
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melissaproulx
Original Author
15 years ago
thanks john, and i guess we all just hope that one day you'll say something positive about the clips. i kinda knew i was forcing the issue and expected your answer. if the deck is only 18" off the ground do you think tongue and grove would work still? ipe tongue and grove or procell or timbertech? any opinions on those? (either tongue and grove or face screwed.) thanks again for all of your help.

i promise i won't bring up the "c" word anymore . . . :)
john_hyatt
15 years ago
18'' is plenty of room to provide Cross Ventalation,air in air out most of the time this solves a lot of problems with any kind of deck project.

T&G ipe can make a real nice project I have one under my hot tub room out 6 years or so now. It sat by its self during one of our freeze/ 65 degree sun/freeze things that happen over here with 0 effect on the material so I can recomend using it However it takes the right kind of install. I have been used as a Consultent for several jobs using it, sometimes even with the right instrustion the Carpenter rebels and dosent do the install the way I advised with bad results including removal and reinstall so unless the guy is a Craftsmen and not a hard headed wood butcher I would go with something else.

Side Note>> it has been raining over here for 40 days or so the frount of my hot tub room is open we have a couple of SW rugs down, the sun came out finally, today I happen to lift the one closest to the outside, Uppers... the water was traped under it and I have a little cupping going on I will have to see if it lays down again. NO rugs on the deck ! the step in frount where the roof drains on it dident move at all its traping the moisture that ipe wont stand for, live and learnI have never used procell, TT also requires ventalation its in the fine print but its often missed or disreguared. FineWoodworking mag had a joist system laying right on the ground with 5/4 composite planks going over it on the frount page there was no chance that project was ever going to take a breath Funny World. I do like the new TT earthwood sutff very cool ipe wantabe and of course I recomend the TT T&G decking.

Sorry bout the C rant. J
PRO
ElementLumber.com
3 years ago
Now before PPF and millworkman chime in.... I know I know.... this post is from 2007, but I think it's time for an update. (miss John Hyatt, he was a good man.)

-Tigerclaw is still Tigerclaw with all the same issues of old....

-EB-TY hidden fasteners are NOT what they were. EB-TY's, while being basically the original hidden fastener clip, were plastic circles smaller than a quarter that had a history of failing. The new EB-TY Premium Hidden Deck-Fastening System, that we like to refer to as the EB-Ty Precision Clip for Ipe, is now being brought to you by Simpson Strong Tie the company that brings you, well, almost everything.... They've redesigned the clip and in our opinion, and in the opinion of many of our contractor customers, it's the best product on the market. They've included a stainless steel insert to help ensure solid hold down power, and elongated the clip helping hide the joist below leaving a cleaner more attractive finish as well as protecting the joist from exposure to rain and sun. Contractors are also reporting they don't "tip" during install unlike some of the other hidden deck clip products out there making for an easier install. There are three clip size options available for achieving your desired gap spacing at 3/32", 3/16", or 1/4". One standard box at 3/32" contains: 175 pcs EB-TY Precision Clips, 190 pcs 305 or 316 stainless-steel trim-head screws, 12 Ipe plugs for the starter board, EB-GUIDE predrilling guide, 1/8" quick-release drill bit., and a T-15 6-lobe driver bit. One standard box will cover roughly 100 sq/ft with joists at 16" oc. We're pretty sure even John would approve....

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