i haven't looked at your plan in great detail, but the one thing I notice immediately is that you only allow 24" for the doorway to the dining room. you need at least 32 inches, preferable 34". It will need to be reworked. Your refrigerator also seems a very long way from the sink. if you aren't having a prep sink anywhere, 11' is a long way to carry things. I also don't think you will have a problem getting something for your 11" cab. as you are getting custom cabinets. You could use it for tray storage since it is so close to the range.
Will look more later. Very nice large space to work with. I am envious!

Oops...thanks for pointing that out footballmom. The doorway is actually 36"...I just counted the lines wrong on my drawing. I'll fix that. I would love to have a prep sink, but have no idea where to put one since the kitchen is too small for an island. I think it is about 8.5' from the sink to the refrig. I guess I'm used to it...it's only about 4 steps.

We have 8 kids...It's been awhile since they my oldest was 5, but I hope I can help. (They're 3-20 now) The important thing is to plan for later, and it sounds like you have that in mind. I'll just go through and post thoughts as they occur to me.

I think a standard doorway is 30"...At least ours are.

I don't see a place for cooking utensils near the stove.

Maybe consider a cabinet that opens toward the eat-in portion of the kitchen instead of a corner unit to the right of the sink. Then I'd make the rest of that run (between sink and peninsula) into drawers for dishes. I think you need that, but then I'm also worried about supplies, pans, etc. for your baking center. I have way more than what would fill that 30" cabinet. Will you keep some baking stuff in the end wall cabinets?

I think the trash has to move, because it just seems like the best space for your pots and pans.

Is your peninsula a lowered baking area? A section of lower counter is good for kneading, rolling, and kid-friendly work space.

Do you mean you can't get new appliances, or that AND they have to stay where they are? In other words, can anything move? Are you willing to incorporate any of the eating space? Do you eat in the kitchen all the time, or just for breakfast, lunch, and snacks?

It might work better to put the sink where the trash pullout is and the range approximately where the dw is shown.

The wall cabinets over the diagonal corner 36" base may not be completely usable unless you are very tall.

A lot of this is individual personal opinions (including mine) as opposed to "facts." So this is mine. I would set the baking area in front of the window using a less deep lazy susan in the corner, cut the diagonal corner cabinet all together and put the range approximately beside where the dw is shown. At the end of the range run, I'd park a cabinet with a pull out table or table/bar like this for additional table/landing space when needed. Gives small helpers a place to perch and work, but yet be out of the way.

{{!gwi}}

That's why I asked if things could move...I was hoping to move some things around for a better layout, also. I had the same thought as Bmorepanic about the baking center in the window corner, but assumed you'd dismiss it because of it not being a good place for the kids to gather 'round. In our new kitchen I put our baking center, meaning the storage for supplies (flour, sugar, etc.) and a place to use the mixer, on a perimeter wall. For rolling out dough, we'll move just the bowl and the dough to the island for a bigger work area/group participation. So that could be a possibility for you...The baking (mixing) center being separate from the baking (work together on the dough) task area.

What kind of range do you have, electric or gas? I ask because I always had electric, but as my family grew (both in body size and quantity), we needed to cook in larger pots and pans, and being limited to the 2 large burners was difficult. If that's your situation, you may want to leave room for adding a larger range and hood later...Have 6" or 18" of cabinet that could come out for inserting the larger appliances. If you have gas, you might be OK, since a good gas range can give you 4 larger burners. I'd suggest saving some room for a 2nd dishwasher, but you're already tight on space.

I don't like how everything is lined up around the perimeter. You need an island. Islands are especially useful when you have many cooks in a kitchen as you have so much access to the counter space.

You absolutely have space for an island!
*Get rid of the fridge and the cabs next to them and put a 3' wide island in the center of the kitchen with 4' walkways on either side.
*Move the fridge over to where the baking center is now.
*Move the sink to the island (This is not a huge expense if you are not on a slab and will give you so much more room and efficiency) and of course take the DW with it.
*Have one end of the island lower dropped down in height to act as a baking center. You can also have stools pulled up in this area for your kiddos to sit for snacks and homework.
*If you wanted an even bigger island you could eliminate the baking center, move the fridge to over to where the DW is now and maybe put some pantries to the right of the fridge.
*If you are willing to have 42" of clearance around the perimeter instead of 48" you could put in a whole wall of shallow pantry cabs where the fridge is now. (With such a big family, I wouldn't personally do this.) Then...
*Put a base cabinet where the small pantry is now and treat is as a message center. Just wait till those kids start bringing all of those papers home!

If you choose not to do an island, the biggest suggestion I could make is to think about moving the sink. I realize it is in front of the windows right now, but the corner access is going to be very frustrating for you. It will be very tight when two (or more) people try to work at the sink.

Nicole

Thanks for all the advice and creative ideas. Unfortunately, we really can't afford to start moving all of our appliances, which would require a plumber, electrician, gas lines, etc. I would love to have an island, but w/o moving things around, it really wouldn't work.

I'm sure I will keep some baking supplies in other places (not just the 30" cabinet). I was thinking about dividers above the refrig. for baking pans and stuff. rhome410-what would I store in the cabinet that opens toward the eating area? I like that idea, but not sure what to store there. I also like the idea of having a lower section of counter...I do make a lot of bread and such. The eating space really isn't that big b/c of the patio doors that are in there. By the way, we have a gas range.

If we did move appliances around, I still don't see how to put a island in a U-shape kitchen. If I made it into an L-kitchen, what would be on that empty wall. We also need easy access to the pantry and and island would block our walkway to the pantry. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

Any other suggestions... What about the trash pullout? Thanks.

"Our goal is to have a more efficient kitchen that is well organized and looks nice."

I don't know how much it would cost to move plumbing lines. In my experience moving the electric for the fridge costs under $100. You should call around and check out the cost of these small changes. You are spending a lot of money to make your kitchen more efficient but if the layout doesn't work for you it doesn't matter how pretty the cabinets are.

Before you decide it is too pricey to move some plumbing, find out. If it is about the cost of a base cabinet with drawers, is that too pricey? Yes, you will need an electrician, but he'll probably be there for your lighting anyway. You will probably need a plumber for a few hours. By the way, I never suggested moving the range so the gas lines remain untouched.

Why are you going with custom cabs? This is what is perplexing me, because your space doesn't seem to need it and your budget isn't such that you are going all out. Is it because you are able to get beautiful quality cabs locally made at at good price? That would make sense. But still, I feel a need to say it again... You are spending too much money - no matter what it is - to end up with an inferior layout.

And I strongly think you have an inferior layout right now. Your work area is too cramped and you have a dance hall in the middle of your kitchen. That is a lot of wasted potential.

You are correct - I suggested changing your U-shaped kitchen to an L-shape with an island. Why do you need anything on that empty wall? If you must have cabs on that wall, install some shallow (12") pantry cabs, it'll only make your walkways 6" narrower and give you loads of storage.

How much easy access do you need to the pantry? Most kitchens have the pantry out of the main work area because you simply don't need to go to it as often as say, the sink. Spend some time looking at kitchen layouts (either books and mags or the FKB) and notice where the pantries are.

I don't like the trash where it is because you have it right in the middle of your prep area. When you are cooking pretty much every meal you are going to be standing right in front of the trash and have to move every time someone needs to throw something away. That is going to get annoying very fast. Move the trash out of your prep zone and into the clean-up zone (to the right of the sink).

It is hard for some people to imagine a space being configured in any manner different than it already is. Is that the case here - is your kitchen already in this general layout?

I realize this post is pretty blunt. I do not wish to come across as harsh, and apologize if I have. I am just trying hard to get you to look at this project with fresh eyes. I would also encourage you to look at your budget as a whole, which enables you to make compromises. (For instance, maybe install a cab with shelves as opposed to drawers in order to call in a plumber to move the...

Move the trash pullout to next to the dishwasher. You absolutely don't want it between your range & sink--too much congestion. Also, your R/F should be closer to your sink.

Our last house had a corner sink, the dishwasher on one side of it & a trash compactor on the other. There was no space to use all three at the same time, which is what you want to do. BAD! It looked pretty, though. Please do not automatically think the sink HAS to go at the window.

I agree with the above posts about checking on electrician & plumber costs before assuming that they will be too expensive. I also think an island & modified L would give you a much better layout.

Ditto what Nigel and others have said.

It happens all the time that folks first focus on cabinet specifics - placement, sizes and finish - before doing the harder business of thinking through the best layout.

Back up a few steps in the process, clear your head and sit with a drawing of the room perimeter and cut outs of the fridge, range and sink (DW and trash too if you like). Play around with *all* arrangements, imagining actually using the kitchen for different tasks (unloading groceries, visiting, cooking, serving up cake and coffee, etc) under different conditions (alone, with the kids, during a gathering, etc). Try multiple activities at once. That will tell you the best locations for the major appliances. Something may jump out that works so well it would be worth moving a sink or fridge. Keep your mind open.

Then allocate counter work runs to support tasks. Avoid double duty if possible.

Then determine storage needs for the tasks.

THEN take on cabinet sizes and placement to best hold that storage where you will need it.

Couple other points: standard cabinetry comes in 3 inch increments; custom is whatever size you say but ususally pricier. Also you can't use every last inch for cabinets because no room is perfectly square and plumb, so there needs to be a couple inches filler space for fit. Lastly, corners are trouble (figure the counter and storage at half value compared to a straight run) and you have three corners. Another benefit to the L with island is you would have only one corner. Much much better.

Good luck!

I may be biased because IÂm trying to get rid of a kitchen similar to that now but I see all those corners as a waste. You could leave the appliances in the same general area, move the range to the left a little, put the sink under the window with the DW to the right (ending that run) and then have a peninsula jutting out of the wall (directly in front of the doorway to DR) with access to both sides and NO corners on that end of the kitchen. You could even have an overhang so kids can have meals, sit there and help you or do artwork while you prepare meals.

We tried many versions of the U-shape and it wasnÂt until I realized squeezing corners into a less than expansive kitchen to get one cabinet on another wall was sucking the life out of me AND the useful storage in my kitchen.

I guess it's all a matter of opinion. Unlike others here, I actually like corners. I think they give me a better work area b/c I can stand in front of one leg and have stuff on the another...close by but not "in the way" of what's in front of me.

In my case, I added a second corner and it's my baking center...I envision making & rolling out cookie dough on the leg that faces the wall and having the cookie sheets to my left on the short leg of the "L". Then, my ovens are directly across from where the cookie sheets are. The corner also gives me a deeper work area there. I plan to store & use my mixer in that corner and it won't take away valuable work space on either leg.

In my old kitchen I had to put cookie sheets (or whatever pans I was using) either on the table behind me or farther over to the left or right...either way I had to take a step or two to get to the sheets/pans. Now, I'll be able to just turn slightly and there are the sheets/pans!

The other corner in our new kitchen will have our prep sink and it will be accessible from both the kitchen and the DR (seating on the DR side). B/c it's on a corner, splashing will not be as big an issue as having it on the peninsula itself.

In our old kitchen I had one corner w/a lazy susan and all my pots & pans fit in it...it was great...I could just turn it to find what I wanted w/o having to dig through a regular base cabinet for them. I had originally planned for at least one lazy susan in the new kitchen to be an appliance garage, but my DH commandeered it and made me change it to a full height door base and turn it around to face the back so we could store pet food near where we feed the dogs. Oh well...I have now had to allocate the short side of my small corner step-in pantry for small appliances...the sacrifices we make for the ones we love!

HTH!

Thanks again. You're all right that I need to take a fresh look at the layout. Let me explain why this project has been approached backwards. Our laminate countertops are in horrible condition and need replaced. We were given a gift of money for Christmas to put towards new countertops, so we picked out some granite to match our current oak cabinets that are still in pretty good shape. After giving a down payment we realized that we couldn't get a new refrigerator to fit into the built in refrigerator cabinet. Furthermore, we weren't able to get a regular sink to fit into our 90 degree corner sink cabinet unless we went with one of those funny butterfly sinks. We had a custom cabinet guy come in to see if he could replace the corner cabinet with a regular corner sink cabinet and get the wood to match so we wouldn't have to replace all the cabinets. He does excellent work at getting the wood to match but suggested we replace all the cabinets to the right and left of the sink. We added a little here and a little there and eventually we were replacing all of our lower cabinets to get better storage. All of the current corners are 90 degree blind corners, so I have A LOT of wasted space. I did a search for cookie sheet storage on google and eventually ended up at this site. Now I am driving my DH crazy because this very simple countertop replacement project is turning into a complete kitchen redo. YIKES!! This is why I submitted our layout to get advice. On top of this, I had already given the cabinet guy and counter guy down payments, so I feel really trapped. The local cabinet guy is giving us a pretty good deal on cabinets, but as the project gets bigger and bigger so does the $. We didn't even look at non-custom cabinets as we were only planning on replacing a couple cabinets. What a mess we are in!!! Thanks for all the input. Any other ideas will be appreciated as we re-look the layout. Thanks agian.

Unfortunately, we're all speaking with one voice about exploring options before comitting.

I think about half the people here who ended up doing a full remodel started off wanting to just update something or fix one problem. A few people have gone the other way - recognizing that their kitchen was basically good, but needed cosmetics - if that label is appropriate to all the fine diy that people have done.

I have a personal bias to try and find the best solution and then include what I can of what would be best. It took me about 6 months to recognise that I was planning on throwing money at bad cabinets and hoping they would heal. I'm happy I figured it out because I don't think hope would have worked well.

And yeah, corners are personal taste. I hate 'em too.

pattinsoldier - what a story! We have read a lot of similar situations here on GW. I think my favorite was the couple that ended up gutting their kitchen all because they started replacing a light switch!

Anyway, if you do decide that a new kitchen isn't a wise thing for you to do right now, I suggest you really just do the bare minimum. That means fixing only the sink cab and replacing the counters with something very inexpensive like laminate. Perhaps some new handles (inexpensive) just to freshen things up. Your kitchen has issues that should be addressed and spending serious money without correcting those problems just makes those problems more permanent. How are you ever going to bring yourselves to rip out those granite counters once you have put them in the "old" kitchen? I think one of those old saying about the silk purse out of a sow's ear or good money after bad apply here.

Best of luck to you! Please keep up updated.

Nicole