I' ve included some pictures.

[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5585.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5586.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5587.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5588.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5589.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5590.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/IMG_5591.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/depth.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/skimmer.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/skimmer2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/skimmer3.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/unlevel1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/unlevel2.jpg[/IMG]

I seem to be having some trouble with the pics. I'll include a link here:

http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/

Your "pool guy" seems to be unknowledgable in that he glued the skimmer lid housing in place-this should never be done until the decking is in.You may have needed one or two extension collars to level the skimmer lid to the deck.

If the landscapers say that they need to saw cut the footer to install the pavers,then let them do it.

The skimmer pipes aren't a plumbing/operation concern,but will likely get shatterd during the earth ramming phase of the paver deck installation.This seems to be the fault of whomever built your pool.

Since you already have a problem with the glued in skimmer lid collar,I would suggest replacing the skimmer and pay to have the plumbing at least 18-24 inches under ground level.The skimmer line being above the water line is not a problem.

Since the pool liner was measured by your "pool guy" ,you are dependant on his measurements for a proper fit.He should have gotten a deposit from you for the liner.Allow him to install the liner and pay him if it fits.He can't use it on another pool.

Thank you for your reply. The lanscapers are charging me an additional $1500 for this cutting. Had the pool company used forms I woulnd't incur this cost.

It will also cost me an additional $200 to break the skimmer out and reset it.

I believe I should withold some money from the pool company.

I don't trust them to do any additional work. I would prefer to order a liner from another company.

The big concern I have is the mouth of the skimmer not being flush with the metal. I included a pic.

http://s276.photobucket.com/albums/kk7/ldee_photo/

Thanks again for your time.

what has been done and how much have you paid your pool company to date?

>>It will also cost me an additional $200 to break the skimmer out and reset it. The skimmer costs around $100.00 wholesale,your price is extremely cheap for this job.

Was the skimmer to wall gap there before this work started?

The $200 charge isn't for a new skimmer, it's the charge another company gave me to break the concrete out from around the skimmer and reset it so that it's no longer crooked and no gap. (I had already paid $500 for the skimmer to pool company doing the reno). We would be re-using the skimmer one it's been released from the concrete.

The skimmer wall gap was not there when this work started. We purchased an entirly new wide mouth skimmer and they cut a larger hole in the pool wall and set the skimmer. To fix this mess will cost an additional $200.

They re plummed the lines, installed a wall track and new skimmer and then poured the sub deck.

The plumbing isn't deep enough dug, the wall track isn't the one we discussed , the skimmer is cemented in and crooked and the subdeck is uneven (have you ever seen concrete poured without using any forms?). There is no wire mesh in the concrete either (which we discussed). I paid $2000k for the concrete subdeck alone.

Based on the poor workmanship on all of the above. I do not want to proceed with the liner or any more work from them.

I owe an additional $7000k (total of $9k project) if they are to finish the work and install the liner ($3300 for the liner alone).

I am proposing I pay them for the above work, less some money to cover repairs. So I would give him an additional
$2500 on top of the $2k deposit and I'll walk away. But I suspect he'll come after me for the cost of the liner and also to pay his subcontractors for the shoddy work.

I am also curious to know if concrete is ever poured without forms around a pool. (my landscapers said they've never seen that in over 100 pools they've worked on)

Thanks you again for your assistance.

So,what did are you paying the $4500 for,give me a line item assessment.
Deck removal?
Coping footer pour?
Skimmer installation?

What size and shape is your pool?For $3300 it had better be a free form or a 25X50.

sigh. we actually removed and disposed of the deck ourselves (it was paving slabs). they removed the liner and coping and jackhammered out the concrete around the skimmer and diving board. they left it all there so we also disposed of the concrete and coping and other mess.

The pool is perfectly rectangle. And it's 18x36. Actually he said there is an additional $500 charge for the liner since I had mistakenly told him the pool was 16x32 (in feb when we originally made the deal... he didn't measure at that time).

So in fact he now wants $3800 for the liner.

Here is the breakdown:

Coping Supply and Install of track - $1200 (there actually isn't any coping... just the wall track)

New plumbing (2 return lines)- $800
Skimmer - $500
Concrete - (I believe it's about 225 sq feet they poured) and he is charging $10 per sq ft.). So the concrete is $2250

He is also charing $700 to relocate the existing pool eqipment to a differnt location in the yard (the new plumbing went to the new location ) this includes a 4x6 concrete pad for the equiptment to sit on.

well the pad is poured but the equipment isn't moved so I'll give him the $240 for the pad (4x6 x $10 per sq ft).

Total of $4990. I'd like to ask for the skimmer money back as well as part of the cost for the lanscapers to cut the conctrete back.

What do you think is fair?

Everything sounds about right except the liner price is a little high.Is it a 20 mil, or 28 mil liner?
Pay him for everything except the liner,take the $1500.off of the footer price.If he already ordered the liner,he should have gotten a deposit from you.I am bidding around $2500 for a 20X40 rectangle liner,installed.

Did you sign a contract for this?

Eastern Pa. and NJ have the most amount of liner shops in the country.Aren't you in NJ?

Thank you all of your time. I very much appreciate it. I did sign a contract for this work.

Aside from the original $2k I gave him at the beginning I did not give him any additional money. I assume he will demand payment for the liner since he made it clear he had ordered it?

He is disputing the $1500 charge for the cutting of the footer. He said he always pours subdecks this way. Have you ever seen concrete poured without forms? The concrete subdeck is a key issue.

If the "subdecking" is not formed or reinforced then it's not concrete subdecking, it's just grout fill. That's what it looks like in the pics. Was it supposed to be reinforced concrete or is it just leveling fill?

We discused a concrete subdeck since it was supposed to be a better base around the pool for the interlock to sit on. (the oontract says concretre subdeck).

It was suppsed to be stronger than jsut having crushed stone up to the edge. So I thought for an additional $2k we better do it right and pay for the concrete subdeck. I asked about the metal or wire mesh and he said there fiberglass messhing built into the concrete.

The lansdapers tell me there is no way the will guarantee work they lay on top of this mess becuase it IS going to shift and sink (I agree with them). Now they will Mortar the coping stone to the edge of the poool (rather than use an adhesive like they were intending), becuase the edge is uneven and they can level it with mortar.

You ask if it's supposed to be leveling fill - then wouldn't it need to be level? it varies in depth from 1-4 inches. How deep should a subdeck be?
There is no gravel under the concrete. It's been poured on top of sand.

I'm debating if I have the landscapers remove the concrete altogether. I am now nervous about any the quality plumbing work he would have done underneath.

He's saying this is how they do all their work.... I think if I'm paying $2k it should be formed and leveled. How much does concrete alone off a truck cost?

Thanks you

" How much does concrete alone off a truck cost?"

~$100-$120 a yard.

Thanks racket. How many sqare ft would that be? I paid for about 225 sq ft. A 2 ft perimeter around a 18x36 ft pool. How many yards would you think that would be?

A typical slab that you'd see for a patio or sidewalk is 4". So assuming 4", at 225 s.f. that's 56.25 cubic feet of concrete or around 2 yards.

Based on what you're describing, I'd say you got hosed by this builder. There is nothing you can put into concrete that will do away with the need for reinforcing steel or mesh. I would not give him another dime until he replaces all that junk he poured with formed and reinforced concrete. Do not pay him for the liner or anything else until he resolves this to your satisfaction. If you paid 2k just for the concrete I'd say that would be on the high side for formed & reinforced concrete, and you didn't even get that. For that price he can afford to rip out the junk he gave you and put the right stuff in.

Keep in mind that if you order a 2 yard batch you pay more than the price I listed.

Thank you for your postings. I do appreciate it. This evening the owner of the pool company is coming to assess. I've been in contact with the Pool and Spa Council of Canad who will mediate and try to come to an agreement but only after the owner looks at the work. I will post back on what transpires. If we can't come to an agreement we will have to litigate.
Thanks again.

Wire mesh is not nescessary, the fibermesh is just fine for a light load such as a patio. Alot of contractors would not put in the wire mesh because it is overkill and the cracks have a tendency to run longer and follow the wire. To me it is pretty stupid to pour concrete without a form since the contractor will end up wasting a fair amount but maybe that is made up in the money they save in the forming, its not a structural issue as long as the thickness of the concrete is uniform (4" I would suspect), it just looks like crap. You can cut off the edges to square it up. My main concern would be that the edge is thin and that they put the pavers over this or extend them beyond the edge of the concrete base. Also not nescessary but nice is to pour a footer along the perimeter of the concrete patio. As long as this is thick enough, it will be fine to put sand over it and lay your pavers, ugly as it may be, still better than the stone base.

well that looks like a mess, personally if that was my compant doing the work i would ter it our an redo it correctly (then again I wouldnt do it that way). The price for the concrete seems high, around here in Michigan 3.50 - 4.25 sq/ft is normal. You probably paid for a small load charge which is under 100.00. The liner is a bit on the hide side but still you might want to find out what others are charging in the area. As for the skimmer, make sure that is one meant for steel wall not polymer walls, you cn get that effect if you install the wrong one. They sit at different deptch for mounting. I would let the PB due the liner if he did measure it and you picked out the liner of choice. PRior to installation I would get in writing, what warranties he has on his work, no wrinkles etc etc.
Good Luck

I want to thank all of you who posted in response to my questions around the workmanship of Seaway Pools in Markham, Ontario.

This process is still ongoing. They have sent a new crew to replace the skimmer. They sawed out the concrete around the skimmer and replaced it with a new one. During this process we saw there is in fact no fibreglass mesh support in it.

They then installed the liner and it didn't fit. They left it to dry in the sun for several days to shrink it. The liner manufacturer himself came to assist with the install. They got it in eventually.

Last week they plummed the filter and pump. Seaway Pools refused to plum into my heater since I didn't buy it from them. Eventually the pool tech and the gas guy worked something out.

Finally we were up and running. They are supposed to send someone to teach us how to use the pool, but no one has come out yet.

They don't respond to calls or emails. Instead they have the pool technician call me back... sometimes.

As far as they're concerned, the work is done. However, I emailed them asking if the pressure guage should be reading less than 5 psi... no response. From what I read it should be higher. So now I wonder if there is a leak in the lines...

Needless to say I just wanted to follow up and let people know about my horrible experience with Seaway Pools in Markham and it's owner Gary Walters.

I'm still working on this, but I've put a blog together so new pool owners can at least have an idea of what questions they should and what to get in writing before starting a pool renovation.

http://seawaypool.blogspot.com/