My husband and I both now think this problem in shower is really a valve/cartridge problem... the plumber is not coming out until Monday -- the company said that they were not required to come out sooner because 1--the weather is still under 32 and apparently this plumbing co will not check frozen pipes when it is still freezing (unlike some others -- I know that is a jacked-up attitude) and 2-- we don't really HAVE an emergency since we have another shower to use and there is no evidence of secondary damage occurring-- frankly I think that is because we are using our home warrenty contract to cover this call and they know they can't jack up our rates -- We have no basement--house is in DFW TX area--homes here (unless they are built on sloping lot with serious elevation change)almost never have basements... We still have no prblem w/water flow in any bathroom except for this shower-- but we are letting it drip again tonight--and a sink faucet on an exterior wall...(just to humor me more than anything) Do either of you know if having a re-circulating HW system so that you get "instant" hot water when you turn on that tap makes a difference when you are trying to prevent freezing pipes-- I don't know how these plumbing lines are run for that system--and I have read there are couple of ways to design/install one...

Thanks! The problem leak is from the spout while the water is off, which we initially thought was valve-related, but doesn't seem to be now that the new valve is in and it hasn't stopped. It's a slow but steady drip. We do also have problems with a steady but small stream of water from the spout while the shower is running (and with a small stream of water from the shower while it's not supposed to be running) but those stop when the water is off, so I'm less concerned about them.

"I'd recommend using a hot flame by using acetylene or MAPP gas rather than propane in order to speed up the job and reduce any risk" I would not recommend anyone using either of those torches until you get plenty of experience soldering copper. Soldering, as defined by the AWS (American Welding Society) is the act of joining two pieces of metal by means of a fill metal that has a liquidous state of 800degF or less. Brazing is defined as joining two pieces of metal with a fill material that has a liquidous state equal to or greater than 800degF but less than the liquidous state of the metals being joined. A naturally aspirated torch that has a pre-combustion mix chamber such as a Turbo-Torch or Bernz-o-matic TS 4000 or Ts 7000 burning Propane produces a flame temperature of approximately 2150 - 2300degF and although it technically is a hotter flame, when those torches are used with MAPP gas it only increases the flame temp a mere 50degF. (hardly enough to justify paying 3 times as much for fuel). In fact, the biggest problems that neophytes encounter when soldering copper is that they get the pipe and fitting too hot and burn the flux, thus leaving burnt flux ash and carbon in the joint, which prevents solder from flowing correctly. Type SB lead free solder is intended to melt at approximately 550 to 650 degF and the flux will boil at 700degF. The real key to soldering is first, clean both the pipe & fitting immediately before you install it. Do not be tempted to think its new copper so it don't need cleaning. Copper oxidizes very fast, so if its been more than 4 hours since you cleaned the fitting, odds are the copper has oxidized enough to make soldering difficult. (Clean it again) Apply flux with a clean flux brush..DO NOT USE YOUR FINGERS. Using your fingers is a terrible habit that will result is to problems, 1. if you get in the habit of applying flux with your finger you can be sure it won't be long before your reworking a hot joint, and without thinking you will apply flux with your finger, resulting in a serious burn on your finger. (Take my word for that one, I made that mistake 20 yrs ago and the tip of my finger still shows where I branded myself). 2.The second problem with using your fingers is you introduce the natural oils from your skin, sweat or dirt onto the cleaned copper surface and that will make soldering difficult if not impossible(Do not touch the cleaned surface of copper with your fingers). Flux brushes are cheap, when buying flux brushes get a half dozen or more, then if you happen to drop a brush you can toss it away and grab a clean one. Also make sure you keep the new flux brushes in a box or plastic bag in your tool box so they stay clean. When solder melts it flows towards the heat, so when soldering a fitting apply the heat to the fitting and watch the end of the fitting. The first moment you see the flux bubble out of the joint pull your flame back away and touch your solder to the fitting on the opposite side from where you applied the heat and the solder will instantly melt and run around the joint leaving you a perfect joint. If you continue heating the fitting and pipe after the solder bubbles you will burn the flux and odds are you will never get a tight joint till you remove the fitting and clean both the pipe & fitting again. Next time your reworking something and you have old tarnished copper to remove, save it. Then take that old copper to the shop and chuck a piece in the vise and practice cutting, cleaning, fluxing and soldering a new fitting on it. It only takes a dozen or so practice fits and you will soon be soldering like a pro. In the last 40 years I have amassed a collection of at least 30 different torches, some I bought, some I received as Xmass or Birthday gifts and many that were given to me from different plumbing suppliers wanting me to field test their newest bells and whistles. Walk in any hardware store and you will find a cute little red or blue tin toolbox that contains a tank of propane, a propane burner/regulator assemble, a spark ignitor, solder, flux, and even a flux brush, everything you need, right? WRONG- Those torches were fine back in the days of 60/40 tin/lead solder, but they are not hot enough for type SB lead free solder and should be avoided at all cost. Then there is the cute little propane torch that has a regulator on the propane tank and a 4ft rubber hose to the torch head, again junk. What good is a 4' hose when standing on the floor and soldering copper overhead in the basement? While on the subject of junk torches, there are a number of cute little one handers that burn butane. In my estimation, butane was only marginally satisfactory in a cigarette lighter and surely not anything I want to try to make a living soldering copper with. For soldering copper lines in a residential potable water distribution system my all time favorite torch is a Bernz-O-Matic TS 4000, but instead of using the long skinny propane tanks I prefer to use the short stubby tanks that they make for Camping equipment. Its the same fuel, at the same price, but the overall length of the torch is shorter making it much easier to handle in close quarters and the tank is nearly twice as wide so it is much easier to set it down quickly without it falling over, plus in my opinion it balances in your hand better with the short tank. Bernz-O-Matic makes a TS 3000 pistol grip torch with the trigger start like the TS-4000 but when you pull the trigger it lights the flame and remains lit as long as you keep the trigger pulled (unless you manually lock it on), but as soon as you release the trigger the flame goes out, so you can set it down quickly and not worry about catching something on fire. The TS 3000 is slightly cheaper and it has the trigger start, but it has to be turned off manually, which can be awkward sometimes. One thing I really like about the TS 4000 is that the tip stays cool. You can actually touch the tip with your finger the moment the flame goes out and it is only mildly warm, not enough to burn your finger or any structural materials it may come in contact with when you set it down. The TS 4000 is also without question the most economical torch to operate. When your ready to solder you pull the trigger and instantly its lit, and the moment you release the trigger the fire goes out. No excess burn time. Typically I can solder all the joints in an average size 3br 3-1/2bth house with one tank of propane. The TS 4000 may seem a bit pricey when you first examine it, but when you consider how rugged they are you would think them a bargain. I have one in my toolbox right now that I originally bought in a hardware store in 1986 and it still works fine. I have not even had to replace the peizo ignighter, although all the repair parts for it are available in nearly every hardware or big box home supply. Now if you are running copper DWV pipe or commercial water lines 1-1/2" or greater, you may want to get a "Turbo-Torch double header or triple header, or an air-acetelene torch, but for anything short of that I doubt your will need anything heavier than a TS-4000 with propane.

You tub requires 75gal of water @ 110degF and your incoming water supply is 50degF. Let us begin by determining how many BTU's of energy you need to add to the water to meet the demand when filling the tub. The incoming temperature is 50degF and for the purpose of illustration let us say the desired temp is 110degF for a differential of 60degF. 1BTU will raise 1lb of water 1degF and water weighs 8.34lbs/gal so the total energy required per gallon is 8.34BTU x 60degF = 500.4BTU/gal. 500.4BTU/gal x 75gal = 37,530BTU. Now let us consider your 50gal water heater set at 160degF. The water heater is 160degF and the supply is 50degF so the differential is now 160 - 50 = 110degF. 8.34BTU/gal x 50gal x 110degF differential = 45,870BTU thus from the start of flow a 50 gal water heater at a temperature of 160degF contains 8,340BTU more energy than what is required by the tub demand. Years ago all water heaters were operated at 160 to 180degF but there were two problems associated with that. First, in those days water heaters only had a light 3/4" fiberglass insulation blanket and there was a tremendious standby loss of energy. Initially they encouraged people to lower the temperature and add insulation blankets to the water heaters but in some instances the blankets were improperly installed and caused problems by restricting combustion air or trapping heat in the thermostats causing them to fail. To offset that problem the plumbing codes were rewritten requiring all water heaters to have a minimum or R-12 insulation. In order to meet the new specifications almost all water heater manufacturers switched from fiberglass blankets to high efficiency cast in foam insulation so standby losses are now nearly no-existant, especially on electric heaters which have no flue loss. The second problem was that when the water heaters were set at 180 many children were injured by scalding accidents. To counter that problem the plumbing codes were revised now stating that the maximum allowable temperature in the domestic water distribution system is 120degF. From the building contractors viewpoint it was cheaper to set the water heater at 120degF meet the new spec than what it was to install a $50 whole house tempering valve. The problem here is that with the water heater set to 120degF we are now we are now delivering water to the shower or tub at 120degF and nearly all the water consumed by the tub or shower must go through the water heater. This then results in an insufficient supply of hot water to meet the demands of consecutive showers or large tubs such as yours and most people resort to adding a second water heater or a tankless . Now consider the tankless. Your tankless has a flow rate of .5 to 4gpm. which is determined by the differential between the incoming cold water temp and the demand temp. At best most tankless water heaters can only provide a 70degF differential which means if your incoming water is 50degF the maximum output is 50 + 70= 120degF so here again, you are heating all the water going to the tub, however it must be understood that as the differential increases the rate of flow decreases and at 70degF differential you can expect the .5 to perhaps 1.5gmp flow, hardly sufficient to meet the needs of a shower which requires 2.5gpm.