I don't think tying bad breeders to medicine/pharmaceuticals is going to do anything. People will just think the breeders are taking such great care of the dogs to be needing that much medicine. People are dumb like that.

We spending millions of dollars attacking the issue backwards. Instead of trying to legislate the bad breeders out of existence, which is impossible, we should be spending the money on consumer education. If you don't have a demand for puppy mills, they will cease to exist.

I'll bet PSAs from the humane society showing how these poor critters are being kept and how they end up at the pet store, in the newspaper, in the walmart parking lot, etc would be MUCH more effective than trying to take out each bad breeder one at a time. Show the deplorable conditions of a puppy mill. Show how the moms are bred until they can't anymore then are discarded. Show the fur matted with poop, the infected eyes and teeth and skin and ears, the crazy circling, their fear of people.

Another PSA shows that cute puppy or kitten at the vet, with the vet telling the owner that their $400 chihuahua has bilateral luxating patellas which requires surgery at $1200. Or their adorable pit bull has a nasty case of mange which is why it is going bald- treatment will be a couple hundred dollars and take a couple of months. Or why their yorkie dropped dead- it had a bad heart. Or why their westie has such bad allergies its chewing and scratching its skin off. Or why their cocker spaniel is such a nasty little dog. I could go on...

Then show how responsible breeders have their dogs health checked with certifications for eyes, hips, elbows, and heart. Show how those pets are being kept- with owners who interact with each animal on a daily basis. The moms are bred a couple of times to carefully chosen males, then retired and offered for adoption as pets or kept by the breeder as a pet.

Then show how the animal shelters are FULL of purebred and other animals just waiting to get their forever home. Many are healthy, sane animals. Many are already housebroken. Many have been temperment tested so you know if they will fit in your family. Show how these perfectly good pets are killed by the millions. Show them getting their lethal injection. Show them getting thrown into a gas chamber and suffocated.

If people are bombarded with the message long enough, they will begin to believe it. Certain politicians have learned this lesson very well- some people STILL believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11. The key is flooding the airwaves with image after image of poorly kept dogs, of their poor health and temperment, of how to get healthy good pets from good breeders or shelters.

If people stop demanding animals from puppy mills, then they will go out of business. It's that simple. We've been doing it wrong all this time.

AMEN....Meghane. Merry Christmas to you and your family.You are the best. GOD BLESS YOU.

Shelley

We need the pharmaceutical industry. They are researching and developing medications to help our pets and the puppy mill animals.

This is SO ironic. The pharmaceutical industry is one of many industries that use dogs in their research. To say it is not a great life for these 'research dogs', (usually beagles), is an understatement. They are specifically bred for research, live their lives in cages, and are destroyed when their "usefulness" is over. There are rescues that specifically go after these poor dogs, and get them into loving homes whenever they can.

Back to your question of how we can get the message out: one idea I had is to bring it to the schools. Elementary schools, middle schools and high schools. Show these kids the ugly truth about puppy mills, and perhaps we can raise a generation of truly informed kids that will make the RIGHT decision when they are old enough to purchase their own pet. It might not seem like it would work, but other causes have been treated this way to a positive effect. Just one more weapon in the fight to stop the suffering.

I think this is more for the ANIMAL DEBATES section. Just for the record, in my county, we ran the pet stores which purchase indiscriminately out of town by constantly calling the law on them for selling sick animals or not treating them properly when the animals were in the store.
Puppy millls are different, educating the public should be the priority of the ASPCA and local humane societies, I feel that they should be spending some of that money which is being donated on a daily basis to go toward public education about puppy mills and how to spot an unethical breeder. On tv, in the newspapers and at pet stores.
1. Do you homework if responding to an ad in the newspaper.
2. NEVER buy a puppy without going to the property. Anyone who says it is too difficult to follow directions to their place is trying to keep a buyer off the property - usually because they dont want anyone to see the condition of the property and how the animals are being treated.
3. Make certain that your breeder has a list of people you can contact to talk about puppies purchased in the past, and get the name of the vet that deals with the breeder to double check on the condition of the puppies.
4. Dont impulse buy, not from the cardboard box in front of the grocery store or from a pet store. The seller can tell you anything, how are you going to follow up???
5.Donate to your local NO KILL SHELTER or to the ASPCA (which is a no kill shelter) to help them with the overwhelming burdens they are now dealing with as a result of the economic crisis.
6. Encourage your local pet store to feature pets from the humane society or a local rescue organization.

Weed, I teach in an elementary school and I like your idea. Starting in about third or fourth grade (8-9 year olds) the students should be able to understand the negatives of puppy mills.

J - Yes! They will absolutely understand, and the younger we start, the better. I am 51, (YIKES!!!), and to this day I remember the talks about heroin when I was in grade school. Not that I was ever exposed to it or interested, but if I had been, the message was that you would become an addict, period. I don't remember exactly how they presented it, but it made a huge impression.

It would be great if the local Humane Societies and/or rescue groups could do a presentation to the kids. Of course, in this day and age, some parents would probably object because it would be "too traumatic" for their children to learn the real truth. *sigh*

Considering that its already taboo to buy people, and considering that taboo hasn't stopped people abuse or unnecessary breeding of people, I would say it animals have less of chance than people do of responsible breeding and prevention of abuse.

Frankly, I'm not even sure educating the public would do all that good; we can't even inform the public on basic and obvious things, like how to eat properly and exercise.

My father is a reputable dog breeder, so I've been around dog breeding all my life. He and his wife breed one litter every two years; on rare occasions, maybe once a year. Really, I think to combat people who are puppy millers or backyard breeders, there needs to be severe licensing put in place. Charge hefty fees to be a breeder (that will take care of the puppy-millers -- if there's no profit in what they do, they won't do it), and take severe action if people have puppies without a license (including hefty fines, and/or taking the animals away). Those that are hobby breeders such as my father will find a way to continue breeding, despite the heftier fees, but it will knock out people doing it for profit, or as an "oops."

How to find the money to hire people to enforce it? Well, that's what the hefty licensing fees are for.

To get rid of puppy mills we need to ban pet stores that sell dogs. No reputable breeder is selling their dogs to a pet store. You get rid of pet stores, you get rid of stupid people making impulse purchases.

We also need to outlaw selling dogs over the internet. The internet makes it way too easy for puppy mills to market their animals to the ignorant.

I was on-line chatting with someone on a different board and I felt I was getting such a load of crap. It was everything from there is no other way, there are no funds for different advertising, people just don't care, it's going to take years upon years and if I didn't like it, lol - perhaps I should focus on something like saving seals... I was starting to feel like I was the minority.

Everyone's ideas have such merit! I see that this really has been well thought out. I am now starting to feel as though we are the majority and the ones spending our donations are in the minority. I feel that effective, aggressive advertising is the way to make the most immediate change. The public is the problem. I support the idea that we need more stringent laws & they must include the BYB'ers. They've been grossly avoided. However, there is a very specific reason they aren't getting passed. We are fighting million and billion dollar organizations. I think that's why they get chiseled down to peanuts. Why else wouldn't the legislators pass them - they own pets, too. They get the starving dog photo is the mail.

They don't enforce many of the laws but I still want anything they toss out. I could write a book about what I've been through with them over the last year. It's mind boggling and its hard to grasp how faulty these organizations/law enforcers are until your knee deep in the system and getting doors slammed in your face.

I personally have had enough of the term "puppy mill" altogether. It's too specific to the images that we've had burned into our brains over the last 20 years. It brings up a picture of some place, far, far away from the puppy in our hands.... It has completely left out public awareness about kitten mills and backyard breeders. Something even as easy as a 'pet peddler' term would cover a wider range of abusers.

Weeds, I'm in the group that loathes the pharmaceutical industry. There just isn't any data that would suggest they support the mills or have a hand in why we can't get any decent legislation passed so best to stay neutral. I didn't know they used dogs in their research :(

I wholeheartedly believe this entire topic should be addressed in the media. I just have more and more questions. I would like to know why if there are so many different ways to get this message out, why has it never been done. How long can you keep your head buried in the sand with donated funds?

I looked up this afternoon and found Dateline had done a couple of puppy mill stories quite some time ago. There was an attack on the AKC. I didn't see a mention about pharmaceuticals nor how the Humane Society, in my opinion, seems to be dropping the ball.

Do you think if I contacted them, they would consider running a series? I would really love to see a whole series on these issues and some in-depth research on why we can't get this fixed. Maybe if they had some different angles to address we could get some discussions out there.

We will never solve this problem as long as states continue to protect the bad guys. In the state that I live in if I were to photograph or otherwise record the living conditions of dogs living in horrid conditions, even if invited onto the property by the owners, I could be prosecuted. I live in a state known for leniency on puppy millers. This law is recent. Money talks.

I am very pessimistic about changing public opinion. In these parts, dogs have become little more than a fashion accessory...something to stuff into a Burberry pet carrier to complete the look. When you start explaining to these silly,vain creatures (referring to the humans)about puppy mills, over breeding, and that for every dog that is purchased, one could be rescued from certain death at a shelter, they start giving you the blather about "the love of the breed".

L

Isn't that disgusting that a law like that would be passed, jackieblue? There doesn't seem to be any uniformity from state to state. What state are you in? I haven't familiarized myself with the new Penn state laws yet. I spoke with a major food distributor company in the state which borders my state (NY). He said that they are usually the leaders in our laws and many states follow once they've done the work. He expressed a great satisfaction at the reduction in these facilities.

NYC is a world of it's own! I'm curious as where they are purchasing these designer animals from, lfnyc. I know you have some disreputable Bengal cat breeders in your neck of the woods. Are they buying the 'knock-offs' or spending a premium to buy from a reputable source? There is such a world of difference. It's great to have a 'love of the breed' but we have to understand, unless we start to buy only quality, genetically screened animals we are ruining the breed we love so much. Very interestingly, Animal Planet discussed the New Guinea Singing Dog as a rare breed last night. There is only about 500 here. It's one of the oldest dog breeds and they didn't note any genetic defects. It makes you wonder what we've done by all this unscrupulous breeding over the generations.

Sadly, this practice doesn't just make dogs its victims but cats, birds, horses and loads of exotics (skunks, raccoons, tigers, etc.).

Went to Petsmart tonight to pick up cat food, saw a baby Conure Parrot for sale for $650. It was in a cage alone and came right over to me when I stopped to look at it. Birds like company....not being alone in a cage.

Meanwhile, the parrot rescue groups have horror stories of the abominal conditions some of these birds come from and some of the rescue workers have a house full of birds in their care due to a lack of dedicated owners.

Here in Florida (my state), people just release their exotics (mostly snakes) when they no longer want them where they become a problem to the eco-system.

The Petsmart type of scene is very sad when you see animals bottled up and suffering. The isolation and pain is in their eyes.

Here is a link that might be useful: student desk

The AKC should take a more pro-active role by refusing to issue papers to animals from puppy mills and backyard breeders.

Then an AKC registration would really mean something. Right now its not worth the paper its printed on.

In addition to educate people I would like to add -- do not support any store that sells pets. I am sure it works the same with all animals though I am only familiar with puppies. Any puppy in a store comes from a mill.
Reputable breeders do not sell to stores or advertise in newspapers. Teach people to go to an AKC dog show to briefly meet breeders and contact them after. Also consider adoption of the many unwanted pets.

The AKC is a big, big, player in this problem. If AKC actually cared more about animal quality rather than puppies being simply a 'revenue source' for them, then they wouldn't allow 'anyone' to make that claim.

If I sent the AKC a check, I could probably get my couch registered with them.

we live a a society where everything including your health is for profit... there are Macys and there are Walmarts, there are reputable breeders which charge small fortune for their pets and will only send them to preapproved homes with high fence and there are puppy mills which mass produce and won't ask any questions... if there is profit to be made there will be ways to get around social responsibilities.
here is novel though, maybe we should encourage small Mom and Pop breeders, providing education and needed support, driving the price down to $50 for pet to make sure there is no profit left for puppy mills?

Well I might as well throw fuel onto the fire... but here is what kills me about the AKC....

They always say, "We are just a registration body". However, the word "CLUB" is in the name of their CLUB. If you're really a club, don't you have control over who are MEMBERS of your club???? I just do NOT understand their logic. You CAN dictate what members you let into your CLUB, if you really are a club. That should iclude adherence to certain breeding practices!

Arrrrggggggghhh.

To toss a flame in the fire. Even if the AKC or any other group dictates breeding practices there will always be some animals that for what ever reason are not show quality. Since part of the AKC practices are for breeding show dogs what do you do with the ones that are not quite show quality. Bad hair, wrong markings, change in perfered type etc. Does the breeder then destroy the pups? Some breeders refuse to sell non show quality sending rejects to the stores so that they are not connected to the pups.

A different topic but it goes along with breeders and what they do with their animals. What would you have the breeder do with the parents that produced non-show animals???

Some breeders refuse to sell non show quality sending rejects to the stores so that they are not connected to the pups.

No reputable breeder would do that. I've never even heard of any breeder in the dog show world ever selling animals to a pet store -- they want to know where their animals are going and to whom, even the "lowly" pet quality animals.

Non-show quality dogs are a fact of life when you breed for conformation. In any litter, you're lucky if you get a couple show quality animals. The rest are sold as pets. The idea that breeders are "embarrassed" if some of the animals they breed are pet quality is nonsense -- for all the breeders I know, they have a list of waiting people who want to buy one of their pet quality animals.

rivkadr is absolutely correct. Obviously reputable breeders are in serious short supply if so many people have never come in contact with one! They release pet-quality animals with a spay/neuter contract. They don't ship them to a pet-store. Parents are spayed/neutered and kept for the remainder of their life - after all, a reputable breeder has established a relationship with the dog that goes far beyond the animal's ability to reproduce. That relationship is missing with a pet broker.

Puppy mills and backyard breeders will have a market as long as people are unwilling to face that finding a new pet is not a spur of the moment decision. Reputable breeders have waiting lists and no shortage of good homes - the average pet-seeker wants what they want when they want it. and when they don't want it any more for whatever reason - the animal is taken to a shelter. That is the public opinion that needs to be changed.

"Puppy mills and backyard breeders will have a market as long as people are unwilling to face that finding a new pet is not a spur of the moment decision."
Puppy mills will have a market as long as there is profit to be made... as long as pets are sold for small fortune there will be plenty of people who want to make $$$$ as well... educating population is all good and useful but you have to get to the bottom of the problem to eliminate it.

And there is profit to be made because the consumer is unwilling to do their homework. Well-bred dogs are not found in a pet store or through a newspaper ad. When the consumer is willing to say "NO, I'm waiting for a good puppy from a reputable breeder with whom I've developed a relationship", the puppy mills have no demand. No demand means no $

Happy New Year, Everyone!

I think that Meghane is giving us an outstanding example on how we could educate the public more effectively. Maghane, as our resident vet, I'm curious about the percentage of animals you see coming from a 'mill' source vs. the BYB. Overall, do you see any difference in health between the two? I would like to take your commercial and show the puppy coming from a nice couple's home to it's vet appointment.

Until I started reading the threads on here, I never realized there were so many purebreds in the shelters. The public doesn't have such a positive opinion about shelter animals, either. If I owned a shelter, I would advertise it just like a petting zoo advertises. Come out and meet all the different kinds of animals, see the lovely animals donated to the facility, free admission, 'family day' on Saturday's... It's much more enticing than the depressing, homeless, unwanted, discarded animals route.

You girls were talking about educating children so I looked into what kind of education they are getting. The Humane Society has some literature for teachers and parents. They put out a newsletter which they say reaches 200 million children nationwide. I'd be interested to know how much time is really devoted in the classrooms to the material. Ultimately, it's the parents that need to educate the children in their own pet selections.

I looked a little more in-depth into what the Humane Society is doing for our education. Their 2008 Financial Report is on-line. They spent $6,746,114. in both education and research (it's a combined total for both). But to put this into some sort of perspective their revenue was $131,281,161.00 of which over 100 million dollars was unrestricted.

Due to their total lack of response on a personal issue, I'm pretty down on their organizational structure. This isn't to slight the worker bees (often volunteer, no less) out on the front-lines. That's an incredible undertaking and full credit is due. However, I shared the public opinion that when a problem arose, they were there immediately taking action. That was not my experience. We actually hang up on them when they call for funds now so I don't get their fund-raising literature. In 2008 they spent over 27 million in fund-raising. On the surface, it seems that they are adept on raising money :). Clubbing seals in the head certainly gets people to reach into their pockets. So do starving dog photos. They've made great strides for the seals in a relatively short span of time. Why do we still have starving dogs after so many years? If they can run fund-raising campaigns so effectively, why can they not run educational programs more effectively? The financial report doesn't show how much revenue was received from people making donations with the intention of stopping the mills. It leaves the lingering question in my mind as to what their revenues would be to help the chickens if the mills were gone.

There appears to be confusion about breeders. I've actually communicated with a small group of ethical cat breeders. There is not an easy way for us to distinguish between a reputable breeder and a byb breeder. Hence, if we started using the term "pet peddler" people would become a little more alert. Better yet, if the reputable breeders with start calling themselves something different than 'breeder' we could begin to segregate. One of things I have found is that we really don't understand what a reputable breeder does as far as costs. We tend to use the monetary cost of the pet to determine the quality of the animal. A $200 puppy sounds like a quality pup and a $50 pup is the same puppy from someone not trying to make a profit from us! Neither is factual.

The group I spoke with seemed open to the thought of actually putting up on their web pages the true costs that go into the animals. I truly think if this information was easily obtained, the educational value would be immeasurable. I'm sure it varies from breed to breed but it is very expensive to produce a healthy animal. The continuous health screenings on their animals costs a lot. There is a lot of care and concern about each animal in their program. I've reached a small group within TICA for cats. They were receptive to start helping to educate the cat community in different way. There is equal frustration on their side that we are not making educated purchases. Does anyone in here know of a way to reach some groups of ethical dog breeders? Maybe if we could open up communication between us and the ethical breeders, some of the confusion would subside. Do you have any more suggestions on how they could help us? I'm willing to put them out there.

People seem to have the same views about the AKC. (lol - saintpfla - registering your couch)! I went to the CFA, Cat Fancier's Association, to see what kind of education they are putting out for cat consumers. OMG! They say that a purebred cat price starts at about $300. I don't know the cost of all purebred cats, they must vary. I know the Bengals from reputable sources are in the neighborhood of $1,000 and I found the Abyssinian are the same. So, if you are just surfacing around without educating yourself, you're thinking you are getting bilked by a reputable breeder. It's somewhat misleading. They've given cat consumers 3 avenues to buy our purebred kitten. The Want-Ads (which means internet to most now), pet stores and reputable breeders. It didn't come across to me that using a reputable breeder is for health. And a pet store? They write that the kittens sometimes come from kitten mills. Why wouldn't they completely discourage using the pet store since it would be hard to determine if it is a mill kitten or not? Just because a kitten doesn't have a runny nose or eyes does not mean it's healthy!

If you take a look at the pricing schedule, you're led to believe the cost is based on looks. Yes, you pay more of a premium for a perfect look, however, if you aren't showing your pet, you still need to pay a premium for health - not $300. The cat breeders seem to follow this same pricing structure so the health concerns are not immediately apparent. Is this the same for dog breeders?

It costs between $20 - $60 to register your cat (depending on the number of generations requested). I don't anticipate buying another purebred any time soon. However, since I don't show, I will refuse to register an animal again until I see some changes within the information they are providing. I micro-chip so have a solid identification on my pet with both my contact info and my reputable breeder's contact info on my new kitten. I don't find any value in the registration paper. I had registered her with TICA but the paper sits in my file drawer.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cat Fanciers' Association

Show quality does not equal healthy. All show quality means is that the LOOKS of the dog or cat conforms to their breed standard. Now any obvious health issues such as knees that pop out or a dog that can't get around the show ring because of arthritis isn't going to be show quality because it is not healthy. But most dogs are shown AND BRED prior to onset of arthritis from hip dysplasia, even boxers and dobermans are shown AND BRED before their heart disease causes them to drop dead. An unscrupulous breeder could have a show quality dog, champion and all, bred it millions of times (males anyway), and propagate all kinds of horrible genetically-transferred diseases if they don't screen their animals first. And let's face it, what's the incentive in screening a Champion for health problems if there is a risk of finding something that prevents you from breeding it? I've seen plenty of Champion dogs with severe HD, plenty of Champion cats (Maine Coons especially) with hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, plenty of Champion boxers with Right Ventricular Arrhythmagenic Cardiomyopathy, etc.

OFA screenings for heart, hips, elbows, and eyes cost money. It's the rare breeder who screens all of their dogs for all known common problems in the breed. Those who do can tell you exactly how much money they lose per puppy they sell. And the good breeders do LOSE money- they just enjoy bettering the breed *that* much.

We should teach people how to ask for OFA certs for dogs. A good breeder has certs for at least 3 generations back. Now THERE'S an organization concerned with the health of animals.

There are breed rescues for every breed out there. There are millions of purebred dogs and cats in animal shelters being killed every year. There is no logical reason to resort to buying a puppy mill or kitty mill animal from any source- newspaper, pet store, Walmart parking lot, guy down the street... I can't even count the number of purebred puppies killed at the animal shelter where I did my clinical rotation in school for the 2 weeks I was there. Probably 100. That doesn't include the adult dogs or the cats. 100 purebred puppies KILLED in 2 weeks. It's just stupid.

Most of the dogs I have had in my life were mutts, found in one way or another. The only dogs I ever paid money for were from rescue organizations. I know that rescue dogs have a bad reputation to some people.

Their attitude is that if the dog is in a pound/rescue it is because the dog has problems or was a problem to pervious owners. Sometimes that is true.

The real problem is usually not the dog(cat), but rather incompetent owners. Or owners who do not take the time/money to properly care for their animal.

Solving or reducing the mistreatment of animals is a problem that will never go away completely. Passing more laws does no good as those contributing to the problem already are breaking existing laws. More laws just increase the number being ignored.

Changing attitudes is the best low cost alternative, but one that has to be done on a continuing basis. Future generations will do the same thing our generations do. And some people will just not care period.

So, the only avenue of action is to keep plugging away at changing attitudes and keep supporting shelters and no kill organizations.

meghane you said a mouthful. I am stunned at the number of lab breeders. But frankly I'm from TN and we get TONS of them. In my teensy county, we took in 300 strays per month (including cats so I won't say it was alllll dogs, but mostly dogs). In a shelter than can healthily hold 45 dogs per week, that is TON of euthanasia. In our state, there is no such thing as labrador rescue - there just isn't. Sad to say, I hated it, but I put down tons of chocolate and yellow and black labs. TONS.

There is abosolutely no reason whatsoever to breed a labrador retriever in the state of TN. Like I said, we were one tiny county, and there are 100 others here.

It saddened me that I got so many arguments about neutering "mah huntin' boy". ugghhhhhhhhhhhhh

I just wanted them to spend 2 days with me in the "back room"... just 2.. even one.. or an hour.... and see what breeding causes... all of those being purebred labs by the way.. and some of them microchipped and akc registered.. but the owner would claim "oh that can't be my dog". arrrrrrrgghhhh

cindyandmocha,
the fallacies concerning what body parts a dog needs to hunt are truly mind-boggling! I was told I "ruined" my GSP and that, because he was neutered, he'd never be interested in birds. To my way of thinking, he's no longer interested in female dogs - birds are the only thing he has left ;-P

And of course, I "ruined" him by allowing him in the house as well.

We bagged our limit during pheasant season and my son got his limit as well during jr pheasant with this little "ruined" rescue dog.

jamas, not that its funny "hahha" but its funny in that its amazing to me...

I would be told "but he's from champion hunting lines", and then I would ask about the mother. Then they would tell me SHE was a hunting champion too....

And then I would ask, "soooo.... if *SHE* is a champion hunting dog, how can having testicals have ANYthing to do with whether the dog will be good hunter???"

They never had an answer for that question.