Getting a High School diploma is a lot harder than it used to be.

In our school district, the math requirements have just been increased!

I really think if you only have a High School diploma - you are competing with every legal and/or illegal immigrant that wants a job and will work harder for less money.

I don't believe you have to go to a 4 year college to be competitive in the job market - but additional schooling in your chosen field is a MUST!

Personally - I think it shows that your are goal oriented and trainable.

I don't know.

I was shocked to learn from a friend that when her children make a 90% on a test it's considered an "A".

In my school, 90% would be a B- and I didn't want to go walking in to the house with that score on my test.

96% was an "A." 100% was an "A". An "A+" was almost unheard of, you had to beyound regular homework and tests and effort and extra study to earn that + mark.

I've also learned from my friends with children, and my teaching friends, that students aren't accountable for turning in homework. It makes up only 5-10 percent of the total grade and they can't be docked for not turning it in. How can students learn without far more practice and study than they can get in a 45-minute classroom? Homework is very important.

I just shook my head in bewilderment.

Give me the old-time disciplined schools where students' grades were based on learning; where they were expected to learn, and where educational results were more important than their "feelings."

Not every student can be an "A" student; but we can't lower the standards to make it appear that they are.

Unless a HS graduate has completed a vocational program ....they probably have no marketable skills for a job above the minimum wage.

Many of the basic/beginning skills used in business (and manufacturing) have been phased out due to technology. Today's entrants into the working force need more than a strong back and a eagerness for someone to teach them a skill...they have to already have a skill to offer.

I talked to a guy the other day who was looking for someone to teach him to read. He read on about a second grade level. He graduated from high school. Just amazed me. I wish I had the time to teach him to read. He was at a thrift shop, and looking for someone to volunteer.

When my daughter graduates High School in a couple years - she will have nearly a years worth of college credits already. She begins college credit classes next year, as a Junior.

She has pushed hard since Middle School to be able to do that. My other kids are doing the same thing.

Marilyn - There may be a Literacy VOlunteers of America organization near you who could help. The man I taught through LVA was also a highschool graduate who could not read - but he would be about 60 by now - so it happened back then too.

I went to high school many years ago and 90% was an A then.
I think HS diplomas are not meaningless - just ask someone who does not have one and wishes they did. I think it is the bare minimum requirement for many jobs.
As far as jobs requiring college degrees - they do it because they can - especially in this economy.
Just because a job requires a degree, does not mean it is a decent job. In many cases, kids would be better off learning a skilled trade. It just depends on their interst and abilities, but there are plenty of skilled tradesmen and women out there who are doing very well.

Iowagirl...That's the way to go. Earning college credits in HS has been available for over 45 years, and i'm glad to hear it's expanding.
Much better to enter college with credits already gained, rather than spend time and money on prep courses to make up for what wasn't studied in HS.

I know parents who let their children make the decision to take "general" courses, then blame the HS when, if they do go to college, learn that they don't have the pre-reqs for college level courses.

Does anyone know what *other* first world countries do to educate their children? Are there more apprentice-type schools and opportunities. (I worry that the lead carpeter who worked on building our house will not be 'replaced' by anyone younger!)

Do other countries pay for higher education for their students beyond age 16 or 18? Are the admittance tests rigorous? (I think that's the case in Japan.)

Is there too much variance in the quality of schools in America? One friend of our DS commented that he found the preparation he'd gotten in composition in HS to be invaluable at Stanford and in his first job (as an engineer).

Meanwhile, DIL is fighting to teach the few caring students in her 8th grade math classes in Chicago's inner city. You'd be astounded to know what 'passing grades' are in the Chicago Public Schools. Kids are merely warehoused; at least they are fed. If schools *were* more demanding, what would we do with the kids who don't qualify?

Public schools in this area offer vocational, college prep and general studies.

In any HS in the county - public or private:
A student can take:
1.College prep level courses and possibly, college credit courses.
or
2.General courses, basic minimums for state HS diploma.

A student can take the basic elements of either 1 or 2 on a half-day at their HS, and then spend the other half of the day at one of many vocational schools...to take a variety of trade or technical courses to qualify for state licensing or certification in areas like auto mechanics, IT, hospitality, cosmetology, electrician, plumber, appliance repair, etc.

It works.

With so many drop outs it would mean something to me if I was hiring. A high school diploma means he stuck with it, not a quitter.

I only have a second but wanted to add a couple of comments.

My stepdaughter is certainly docked if she doesn't turn in homework.

I think the 90% A versus the 96% A might vary from school to school or maybe state to state.

Regardless of whether all students take them or not, there are certainly tougher classes available then there were when I was in high school.

I believe that some schools might not make homework a requirement since that can be a disadvantage to students who don't have a home environment conducive to doing homework. Schools with a large population of students from low-income families or broken families might feel that putting too much emphasis on homework will make it harder to keep kids in school who are already more likely to drop out.

marilyn c-- ask the man to go to his local library and ask about literacy programs. I'm under the impression that most, if not all libraries have access to these volunteer programs. Good for him for trying to educate himself further! That's a tough thing to do when you are an adult.

Getting a high school diploma is much more difficult than when I was in high school. Here, students must have passed Algebra I, even though we did not have to do that at all. They also must have passed at least one laboratory science. Certainly any college bound student years ago took more math and science than that, but not the non college bound. Now everyone has to take these classes and pass them.

I think every child who hopes to be self supporting some day should have post high school certification. A good trade school program will prepare many for medical office work, auto mechanics, nursing, professional cooking, landscaping, etc. A bachelor's degree is frequently expected today for either being hired at all or moving up the ladder. It is just how it is. A degree shows the employer which applicants are self disciplined,mature, and set goals.

I think our inner cities are failing in almost every way. Certainly families are crumbling there with divorce, drug, alcohol and often even an anti achievement culture.

Parents need to prepare their kids to be achievers from elementary school onwards. Advanced math is now a necessity in middle school, and middle school includes Algebra I. A middle school class load of challenging classes prepares a kid for taking and doing well in challenging high school classes that will help open the doors to college by showing the Admissions Officer what he or she can do. The challenging classes also prepare them to actually pass their college courses and earn a degree.

None of my kids had to take a non credit or remedial class at their universities. My oldest earned her degree at a selective university in 4 years plus an additional quarter because she wanted to pick up an additional concentration in finance. My middle one attended community college and graduated cum laude there and from the university where he got all As in his junior and senior major classes. My youngest graduated from UC Berkeley in 3 years, and took numerous courses beyone the minimum required. He earned a master's degree before then graduating from law school and passing the bar.

We set expectations as parents. No activity outside the home was as important as school and achieving. I expected no grade lower than a B because my kids had the ability and we had the expectations. No job, no sport, no romance, no extra curricular activity took precedence.

And I have to add one more thing. My kids grew up in a family of English speakers. So many of the statistics today on student achievement reflect the fact that over 25% of today's students' primary languages are not English. That makes a huge difference. About 10% of our student population are receiving some kind of special education because they have difficulty learning. Some of those kids cannot even tell you their names because of their profound handicapps. When I was a kid, we did not have special education kids at our schools. Some school districts may have had a special facility for some of them back then in the 50s, but many never attended school. Not so today.

We now have a High School Exit Exam in order for a student to earn a diploma. Everyone has to pass it to receive a diploma. But, kids do fail it, and they are the special ed students and English language learners, usually recently arrived ELLs. Some special ed students will NEVER earn a diploma because of their inability to pass this exam.

Our students can do better. Parents must get involved in their kids' education and help their children, set goals and expectations, and clearly communicate high expectations to their kids and to their school leaders too. Our greatest failing as a nation is legions of uninvolved parents. Disinterested parents. Uncaring parents. Wishy-washy, passive parents.

Colleges are over 50% girls now. Fellows who graduate high school and learn a trade can made a good living without a college education. Think how much it costs you to hire a plumber or painter.

My Mom wanted an education so bad she went to the 8th grade 2 or 3 times to learn all she could. Her Dad would not board her in town like he did the boys. Mom's teacher sent her home one week end with an Algebra problem and it took her all week end to figure it out. When she turned it in, the teacher didn't say a word about it. She asked his daughter why, she told Mom, you solved it and he couldn't.

I erred in the statement above. Divorce is not the problem though I don't think kids are unscathed with the divisiveness and tension of divorce and what preceeds it. I think more so a problem in the inner city centers around the often held practice of children having babies, of young single women setting out to have babies they cannot care for with no plan to have a two parent family, and with the enabling, debilitating culture of generations raised on welfare as a lifestyle of choice. Extensive absence either because a parent does not care about school attendance or because an older child must babysit the other children, etc. All these situations make it harder for a child to achieve in school because of the burden on that child's shoulders.

Just a couple of additional comment. Someone asked about apprentice types of training. Some districts that are larger and also better funded do have some technical training programs in schools. Our apprentice programs for many years, had been sponsored by unions. Unions were strong and had a lot of money and respect. They started losing their power when they took their ideals and finacially broke companies and also made it difficult to work with. Once they started losing power, they made less money and while most still have apprentice programs, even before the recession they couldn't sponser as many students. This took place at the same time right to work laws came about, the immigration of laborers that went from the field to the trades increased and they could and would work for less money. Jobs were sent overseas that would have been unionized, so those former union workers also took lower paying jobs, just to pay their bills. It is a different world than the one many of us grew up in, with many complex issues. Not every student needs a college degree, but for years we have not valued the blue collar workers. There was a huge push to get everyone into college. Seems to me, I see a lot of over educated people that have degrees, but can not use them, because the emphasis was misplaced to send them to college and not into a technical training type program.

I agree with you, a high school diploma does not have the same value as in years past.It is very sad, when you consider what we spend on public education. I don't think the problems are as serious in private , or faith based schools.The dumbing down of America is deliberate. IMHO.

june

Our economy is no longer an agricultural based or industrial based economy. It is information and service based. So a mere high school diploma won't cut it at all. Kids today need a degree or degrees or trade school diplomas. There are outstanding public school systems. A student today needs to take challenging courses and plan on completing a higher education pathway to prepare for the world of work.

even my dh's mechanics in his field, now are required to continue their educations, with the union...you can't get by anymore as just a helper. in fact, if you don't achieve full status, by a certain date, you slide backwards and that includes your salery!

sheilajoyce -- I like what you have written. Our DIL is able to 'save' about two percent of the kids in her 8th grade class. They get accepted to the better public high schools. Most of them have at least one parent or grandparent who is a rock. The rest...have no one and nothing. DIL teaches calculus to a few kids -- after regular school hours. The CPS keeps adding 'requirements' but no time or funds, and of course the biggest problem is the lack of stability in the lives of the students. IMO we need institutions again where children can be housed, fed and taught.

I'm not thinking of argicultural or manufacturing jobs when I say the HS degree may be meaningless. Lots of white collar jobs still exist that HS grads could be expeced to do in years past; now those employers won't interview you without a college degree. That mystifies me. One of DS's friends processes insurance claims! (He needed four years of college to qualify to do that?)

Did your children accrue huge loans in pursuit of higher education?

Back when I was in high school there was one diploma for everyone. You had to have so many credits of this class or that. In my son's school you can pick from 4 different types of diplomas. He wasn't told anything the first year he signed up for his classes so he took Spanish instead of French and now can't get the highest diploma. He might have if they had offered a French class during one semester he tried to take it but the teacher wasn't teaching it that semester so he was sol. You have to have so many credit hours of a foreign language and he missed out and didn't want to keep taking Spanish.

He showed me his list of possible classes this week for his senior year. They've gone from 2 semesters to a 3 semester year. He had to pick 15 different classes and the computer supposedly picks their classes for them. He picked the math, English and science classes and then ran out of things he wanted to do because 95% of the classes were things like dance, band, art, chorus, home economics, ceramics, guitar, science fiction, floral design, fashion, etc...he ended up putting down pottery and military history because there wasn't much to choose from.

Up until this point I've been happy with this school system and it's one reason I haven't moved to the big city to be closer to work.

Even though I think a lot of the classes offered for next year aren't very academically challenging, I do think school in general is a lot tougher now than when I was in school. We never had the amount of homework or started doing stuff like Algebra so young. Don't know if all school systems are like this one, though.

In this area, math is not required for every year of high school, english not required every year and history is now called social studies...the kids no little about history. I find it absurd that english and math, two essentials for everyday living, are not taught every single year.

I think a high school diploma is important! I tell all of my employees to go go go, and do something else with their lives! The high school girl is very active and I work around her schedule...she does extra stuff at school, voilunteering, and is into sports, and planning her college courses..I even let her study if we have no customers..I am always pushing everyone to do better....MY MOTTO IS....GO FOR IT! Dont let life hold you back! If someone came to me for a job and didnt have their hs diploma, I'd ask them why, and ask them if they regretted not completing school, and if they had plans to take any classes to finish it or go further. If not, I wouldnt hire them....if they did, I would hire them and work around their schedule as much as possible!
http://debfrompa.proboards.com/index.cgi?/

A HS diploma isn't meaningless, in that it does signify completing a step in one's preparation for life.
However, it doesn't mean that the student is fully prepared to get a job that can support them (or a family).

High school classes alone are no longer structured to provide job training.

Laws in recent years that were designed to improve grades and graduation rates for High Schools, have resulted in some schools offering watered down classes that require noting more than minimum attendance and effort to pass.
If a student does poorly in classes, the student is placed in a "less challenging" class the next year - to make the school (and school system) look good in "performance" numbers reported to the state.

Parents have to take more control of their child's education, questioning grade placement, making sure the child is studying...and not leave it up to administrators who are often too interested in their own ratings.

Children also have to understand that a High School diploma is all they need to earn a living wage. That they have to learn a skill, knowledge..which means college for some professions, technical school or other post-HS job training for others.

A high school diploma meaningless...not in my area. It is a lot tougher to get one now a days. The standards and requirements are much higher today. Both my girls started taking college courses starting junior year. Both my parents dropped out of school. Neither went back to get their diploma. They got jobs to support the family (mom) or joined the military (dad). Wayne and I put a high value on education. We let our girls know from a very young age that an education is the most important thing in their lives. It makes a majority of their life's' decisions. Where they will be able to live, what kind of car they drive, what type of life they will be able to have, etc., all depend on their education and being smart enough to make good decisions.
The grading system at our schools goes like this;
A+ =100-99
A = 98-95
A- =94-93
B+ =92-91, and so on. NancyLouise

I graduated HS in 1959. Required were four years of history; two years of math (algebra and plain & solid geometry for me); two years of science (biology and physics for me); two years of a foreign language. (Can't recall what else -- well, four years of physical education unless you were on a sports team.)

Chisue, your daughter is an angel for what she is doing. Only one of our kids accrued huge loans in pursuit of his graduate degrees. Our goal was to provide our kids a bachelor's degree free and clear. We did it. But the youngest just graduated from law school and passed the bar last year. He owed $140,000 for loans from that and his master's degree and living expenses. We helped him with tuition payments, but he wanted to do most of it on his own. Now he is paying off those loans with income from a job that pays well enough to let him easily do so within a few years if he is disciplined.

I remember in the recession of the late 1980s chatting with an alum group about hiring and student preparation for work. One woman's husband owned an American Van Lines moving franchise. She bragged that they hired only college graduates--movers!!!! That was a time when kids were graduating and desperate for a job.

Employers could have such high standards because graduates were happy to have any job back then. I suspect the same will be happening this time around too.

In fairness to employers, I can see why they want a college graduate when a high school graduate might be just as trainable. First of all, a college graduate is 4 or 5 years older. Equally important, he or she has demonstrated that they can buckle down and set goals culminating in a degree. That separates the wheat from the chaff for someone hiring strangers and trying to find the best employee possible.

When the supply of educated potential employess shrinks, then employers will look at those without degrees. But when they can select from only the so-called cream of the crop, why shouldn't they?

I recently talked to a college professor who said today's college degree is the equivalent of yesterday's high school diploma, and today's Master's is the equivalent of yesterday's Bachelor's.

We were discussing lower standards in college, not high school. He said a decade ago he could assign eight novels to be read by students in his class on the novel, but not today. Today the students won't read any more than two. College graduates used to have pretty good writing skills, but those days are gone, too. I could go on and on.....

Yes and no, Alisande. Today, to be trained or educated above the norm, you must have at least a bachelor's degree. When I graduated from high school in 1959, a surprisingly small percentage of the adult population of the United States had a high school diploma. Back then, less than 10% of the US population had a bachelor's degree. (Was it 2%? Can't remember.) Today, the percentage of adults with a college degree is much higher. So much higher, in fact, that it is the norm in many areas, and so to be exceptionally prepared, a graduate degree is required to move into that upper percentage.

However, I have taught high school and seen my kids through school and I can tell you that the information age has had its impact. Kids today are learning things in upper elementary school that I had not learned till high school. High schoolers today are studying coursework that I did not study until I was in college.

What we do have going on in this nation is an influx of students enrolling in college who were at the fiftieth percentile or lower in their high schools. That is new at the university level as more and more students determine to earn a degree. Universities welcome English Language Learners and special education students like never before.

As a nation, we believe in self determination for our students and their career goals. In many other countries, students are placed in educational programs for careers that the system selected for them. That selection process involves the student's achievement scores, and once put on a career track, that is it. A desire to have their own career choice is another reason we have so many high school and college students come to the United States to go to school. They want to select their own careers and not have them imposed upon them.

Sorry to be so wordy.

I think students spend to much time of the day on ancillary subjects. Somehow it became important to add all these subjects to Middle/Jr/HS. Fine if time allowed but now they spend more time of the day in the extras than in the basics.

High school students where we live have a lot more choices than they used to. Students here get out of their high school degree whatever they put into it - if they take the easiest track they will get a poor education, if they take the hardest track they will get an excellent education.

I agree with everything Sheilajoyce said - factory jobs where we just snapped wheels on widgets are gone. Those factories are automated, and the jobs went to the people who program and maintain the mechanized equipment.

I also agree with Monica_PA. Parents and students need to take control of their own educational choices. My kids are getting a far better education than my husband and me, and my husband and I got good educations. My daughter will take calculus as a junior in high school. Many of the kids in her high school will finish all their calculus and take differential equations their senior year of high school.

Like Sheilajoyce's kids, my son didn't have to take any remedial classes in college, and neither did any of his friends. My daughter won't have to take any, either. My kids' high school teachers don't "teach to the test" for No Child Left Behind state standards test, either. They teach so far above the level of that test every day that "teaching to the test" is not even remotely an issue.

Perhaps some kids' high school degrees are meaningless, but where we live kids can choose to get an excellent education if that's what they want.

Not wordy, Sheilajoyce--well written.

I graduated high school a year after you, but didn't enter college until I was 43. At that time I was shocked at the number of my fellow students who did just enough work to get by. They had no interest in what they were learning, including their majors; they just wanted to get good enough grades to stay in school and get their degrees. I told this to my stepdaughter, who was in law school, and she said she observed the same thing at Harvard.

Today I work in a university library, where only a tiny percentage of the books ever get checked out. Most languish for years--decades--without ever being opened. I've had seniors come in and tell me they need to check out a book but they don't know how to do it because they've never been in a library.

I am on the fence with this one. Our DD went to college and got her degree, our DS did not attend college.

Both are still young 21 and 23, but do very well at their jobs and in life. DD does make more money than DS but she has a lot of debt and DS has LOTS of money saved up.

Judy

Judy....college attendance isn't the real question here, and financial responsibility isn't a matter of formal education.

The question really is....is a HS diploma enough to prepare a child to enter the working force and earn enough to become financially independent (to support themselves) and have an earnings future(enough to support a family) without any other education?
And education includes formal skills training (manual and technical) - not just college or university degrees.

I realize that Monica..... I am saying on of kids is doing very well with only a HS diploma. The other one has a HS diploma and college degree.

I'm concluding that the HS diploma IS meaningless today, as compared to twenty years ago. There seem to be a lot of rasons why, not the least of which is employers who do not value the degree. I know that young people today seem to live in a childish state a lot longer before reaching 'maturity' -- regardless of actual age.

This watering down bothers me. I don't think 18 year olds towards the bottom of their HS classes are 'college material' (at that point -- maybe later in life), but as long as colleges accept them (and their money!), they'll attend, mounting up debt and getting a 'college degree' before entering the workforce in a job any graduate of a GOOD HS could do -- 'then' or now. The colleges will be enriched; the students will be impoverished by loans. The school, state, nation can brag about how many 'educated' citizens it has. (Does that have echos of the cheering for the increasing percentages of homeowners during the housing bubble?)

This devalues education all along the line. Why, today job seekers in the business world feel a Master's in Business is *mandatory* -- although because it is now so common it seldom pays off in a significantly better job for a long time, if ever. (Let's not forget to add in killing debt for these seekers of the degree/brass ring.)

It seems to me our educational 'system' is milking us and our kids. The home can be the biggest influence on how a student performs in school, but...in our society that influence is often missing. The uneducated holder of that worthless HS diploma is our worker of tomorrow -- who cannot prform mundane, everyday tasks; cannot comprehend and answer a question; cannot formulate a question of his own; cannot cast a responsible vote.)

We're all in this together! What to do?

Ahhh, chisue, don't get me started on the costs universities impose on their captive audiences and why those costs are as high as they are. That is a whole ball of wax in iteself.