I just found this great thread with lots of pictures, but I'd love more modern examples. A lot of the photos posted wouldn't fit with the style of my home (recent build condo).

Here is a link that might be useful: gardenweb thread with columns in islands

Here's one from houzz.

Here is a link that might be useful: [Columns in island[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-house-kitchens-beach-style-kitchen-philadelphia-phvw-vp~730371)

And another.

Here is a link that might be useful: [More columns[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-remodeling-berryville-va-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~82369)

Here's one bit bit different location than you have but trim detail may help? Had panels from cab mfg sent in mitered on the edges (they complained but did it -Showplace :), some trim, then another set of panels, outlets are facing island where we packed out the bottom panels.

Do they both have to be exactly where you placed them? If not, I'd put them each on the outside edges of the island instead of just a tiny bit of space between them.

Also, I find I like columns when the design makes them look like you WANTED them there... versus "oh, I guess I have to have a column here." Give them an interesting reason to be there. Or tie them in architecturally to some other design element in the house.

feisty, is there any way your island could be turned? Then columns could be at the ends, rather than in the middle of one end, close together.

Why not keep the short wall there? Have a peninsula with the wall there. It will take up less space. I guess I'm not seeing what you are gaining by putting columns there instead of the little wall. Wall is 4.5 inches so you get a few inches of more usable counter space with the wall.

Thanks for the photos and ideas lawjedi, canuckplayer, jackuvall, and lcskiasgir!

Without putting new beams in the ceiling and massive $$$ structural work, those columns HAVE to be in those exact locations. I agree it looks nicer when the columns are on either end of the island, or at the corners of one side - but that is not an option for us I'm afraid.

Lawjedi, you're thinking what I'm thinking - make them look intentional and planned. Not sure how though :) .

Raising the level of the island between the columns is an option though - as shown in Houzz pic. One benefit would be hiding the junction boxes for electrical/switches in the raised area, rather than having to thicken the columns to make room for those.

I like the idea of having a cabinet maker do the finishing work! I can see how mitered edges would make a difference so I will think about how to incorporate the cabinet panels and column cladding together than way. Thanks for that idea. Jakuvall, your kitchen is so beautiful!

Lyfia, the existing wall spans the two green columns. We've removed the drywall and it's amazing how the 18" between the columns allows for better view and light (still have to move the middle stud). Sightlines and light are the major reasons for this renovation - the front door is actually full window and the more of that light falls on my island workspace the better.

I think something like this might work:

[Beach Style Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2110) by Stone Harbor Architects & Designers Asher Associates Architects

I see them built into a see-thru arched top wall with top lighting and display shelves. Custom cabinetry, not drywall sort. Like a utility architectural feature, beautifully done in finish carpentry.

In light of not being able to move the supports, I propose something like what beautybutdebtfree offered...

Have a very small wall there - what is it from outside edge to outside edge? 24 inches? 30inches? anyway - the middle part, I'd put a "peek-a-boo" opening, perhaps an arch? the bottom of the opening might be 6 inches or so higher than the island top... maybe do a matching to your counter sill on the opening.

Having the 2 columns there stand alone in that position is killing me, symmetry-wise.

someone in the past has posted a picture that **might** give you an idea of how to handle it with the countertop wrapping the small wall. I don't remember person's name... I vaguely remember maybe it was a pale blue wall, possibly with a niche for their phone in it... the counter extended past the wall and was wrapped around. It looked nicely done.

I sort of found it...

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg1200054616687.html

This is the poster and the kitchen. Unfortunately it is not the picture that I was thinking of. There is a picture from the other angle so you can see how the edge of the island/peninsula sort of wraps around the edge of the wall. Or at least I think there is... somewhere... in cyberspace...

But in looking at the picture... imagine her phone niche the same shape, much larger and centered on the mini-wall (with the sill 6 inches or so higher than the island). That's what I was picturing.

Lots of great ideas lawjedi and beautybutdebtfree. And reminds me that I need spot to hide my land-line phone too!
"Have a very small wall there - what is it from outside edge to outside edge? 24 inches? 30inches? anyway - the middle part, I'd put a "peek-a-boo" opening, perhaps an arch? the bottom of the opening might be 6 inches or so higher than the island top... maybe do a matching to your counter sill on the opening."

I think this could work! Using that 6 inch higher area to hide outlets/switches/phone would be great because the columns would then only have to hide wiring, not junction boxes as well (which would make them really fat).

From post to post is 28" - outside dimensions. The posts won't be at the corners of the counters, but they will be at the corners of the base cabinetry, so that should help a bit?

Check out the switch I want. It would be on the outside of the island. LeGrand adorne series - two touch dimmer switches with a satin bronze wall plate:

I would investigate steel columns; they can be much smaller than wood. Don't scrimp on the painting; a good job won't be cheap.

If you find you don't like them, you can still have them wrapped with mitered MDF (and wood veneer) to any size you like and they could still be smaller than wood.

I like the steel idea a lot, but my husband said that would be a totally different deal than the 2x4 solution so I'm not sure if he'll be willing to ask the engineer about it. I'll nudge him once we hear from the engineer regarding the first design. Thanks for your input Trebuchet.

More demolishing and moving today. sigh.

This solution is really interesting:

1. elevated "counter" matches cabinetry
2. area between island counter and elevated counter allows for hidden plugs (I think?)
3. columns look intentional due to cantilevered pendant lights and matching cabinetry

In my case the columns go along the short side of the island, not the long one as shown above, but I think some of the ideas could be adapted?

feisty68:

If you can make them look like they're doing something else and you like that, fine, but if you can't, don't. Paint 'em blue or something. It's all or nothing here; the middle ground is no place to be.

I think you're lucky to have something so cool to play with. I live in such a 1976 ranch!

I have to look at the other column threads, but the first thought was to put glass shelves between them.

Why do you have to wait for your DH to talk to the engineer? You're not able to do that yourself? [shrug] Either way, take the ideas from here and give them to ... someone! They could be so cool! :)

Trebuchet -
"If you can make them look like they're doing something else and you like that, fine, but if you can't, don't. Paint 'em blue or something. It's all or nothing here; the middle ground is no place to be."

I think you might be right about that.

CEFreeman -

I like 1970s ranches! I'm not sure about "so cool" - it's a boxy apartment - just trying to work with what I've got ;)

Regarding the glass shelf idea - I think I want to keep the eye level space clear because it's an entrance area and I want to open up the sightlines as much as possible.

DH has to talk to the engineer because they are colleagues and have extensive dealings building skyscrapers and stuff. In this case he needs to be the go-between.

We have a pretty good role division actually - for a relatively new couple. I am doing the design, getting quotes, managing trades, demolition, and grunt work. He is doing managing the structural engineer, electrical work, plumbing, gas line, and power tools.

Arg. I am so frustrated. After waiting for over a month to finally get the stamped engineer drawings, I am really disappointed.

One column will have to be made of 3 2x4s, the other column will have to be made of 4 2x4s and there will have to be a 6" header hanging down from the ceiling :( . It will look totally mickey mouse. Once electrical wiring is added and making the columns symmetrical, I'll be dealing with TWO 8"x6" columns...which will end up being more like a small wall with a slot running through it.

I asked about steel columns, but apparently that would require renovations in the condo below us...which is obviously out of the question.

My husband has a saying from his home country that goes "you can't put lipstick on a pig".

SIGH.

This post was edited by feisty68 on Fri, Apr 4, 14 at 23:28

"I asked about steel columns, but apparently that would require renovations in the condo below us...which is obviously out of the question."

That's about the silliest thing I've ever heard. Why would wood bearing columns not require work on the condo below and steel columns would?

Your engineer is doing some serious BSing.

here is our design for a walkout basement bar island. We have two structural beams we had to work around. We decided we wanted the columns to die into the cabinets underneath, not flank them on the outsided.
They are not installed yet so I only have drawings, not actual pictures. If you look on houzz for bar columns you will find many similar since basements often have to deal with structural support (and bars are often in basements)
Front/ working/serving side
[img]

Back/sitting side:
[/img]

clicking on them a couple times will enlarge for better detail,
good luck

Trebuchet is right, the statement the metal columns would require work in the condo below, but this solution using 2x4's would not, is ludicrous. In my opinion, either the engineer has done the absolute minimum amount of work to find a solution and is BSing to avoid having to do anything more than the minimum. Or he is incompetent, in which case I would be reluctant to believe anything he has to say. Including that his proposed solution would work.

Structural support work is not guesswork, and is an area where you really want someone who knows what they are talking about.

This post was edited by bob_cville on Sat, Apr 5, 14 at 11:44

It's interesting to watch the prejudice against metal studs, columns or anything that's not a historical norm.

I know enough to be dangerous, but more than the average home owning bear. Horse-hooey. If you were moving a load bearing column or even a doorway, it would require work with either material.

A month for this? I know you said he was a friend, but what does your husband's country say about those closest to you, screwing you? (That might be extreme, but this guy's not doing you any favors.)

In MY country, given the melting pot of cultures we enjoy here, we have a lot of those little sayings:
Keep your friends close, but keep your enemies closer.
If you're worried about employees stealing from you, don't hire your family.
If you're in a business deal and someone starts talking about God or Jesus, get your back to the wall because they're going to try to put it to you.
and continuing with the porcine theme, and completely irrelevant to this thread:
"A sure sign of rain is a hog with a stick in its mouth," my x-FIL would chortle about smokers, usually a would-be pretty woman.

In a condo, most interior walls are not load bearing. Of the few that are, the walls directly below also bear, meaning that the wall below shouldn't be much of an issue either way. In other words, this. ''Engineer''isn't. Go out and spend the $500 independent of this schmo, (and your bromanced bedazzled hubby if you have to) and get someone who will give you more accurate informaton. It will be much quicker as well.

Illinigirl, thank you for the drawings of your island design. Initially, when I thought the columns might be less obtrusive, I was thinking of keeping them as columns. Now, I'm thinking they should "die into" the island as your design does.

And thanks for the structural replies. Some clarifications -

* many of the small and large walls in this condo are load-bearing - I've examined the drawings
* it's a wood framed 4 storey building with radiant heating in concrete skim floors
* this little load bearing wall is what is holding up the floor joists (and concrete) of the floor above...and there are two storeys above me (but these studs aren't involved in holding up the roof)
* the firm that did the drawings is the top building structural engineering firm in the city - they generally deal with steel and concrete structural elements, not wood
* the drawing is stamped by a senior engineer...actually hand drawn by him

It was the junior gopher engineer who made the comment that renovations in the condo below would be required to use steel posts. It may be that he didn't actually know what he was talking about, because it was the senior engineer who did the work. Or it may be that, in order to create the proper tie-ins between the floor joists and the steel columns, they would have to go into the condo below because the concrete skim with water pipes in my flooring would be too difficult to work around. The existing studs are already tied in so that would not be necessary if we stick with 2x4s.

I think the real problem is that my husband communicated the scope of work as being very narrow - "what studs can we get rid of now that we have removed the drywall and non-load-bearing studs". The simplest and most economical solution is what the engineer suggested - replace one stud with a header and a stud on either side. Unfortunately, it sucks design-wise. But the engineer wasn't instructed to come up with a design that was as column-free as possible.

I thought we'd get an answer on this in a few days, and then have time to investigate alternatives.

Now I'm wondering if it's even worth doing anything to the studs. I mean, pulling a building permit and hiring a contractor to jack the ceiling, etc. - just to replace ONE stud with TWO? It will be $$$. Our city's building department sucks too. I'm starting to wonder if I can live with that middle stud.

This post was edited by feisty68 on Sat, Apr 5, 14 at 12:09

I think what happened here was that this micro-job became a pawn in some complicated dealings among the engineers (incl my husband) related to a skyscraper job. The story would be more funny and interesting if it was how y'all are imagining it though ;) . Thanks for the chuckles.

Here are the existing studs that I am quite tempted to leave as is (rolling eyes):

If all this is true and you'd end up with that skinny opening and you aren't going for mid-century modern kitchen, I'd leave the wall, put a fabulous piece of artwork facing the front door and have a groovy wall mount sconce on the other side. Or the phone or whatever.

That's a lot of work and $$ to get what you don't want, IMO. Bummer though, when things don't work out IRL like they do in the ol' noggin.

Deedles - yep. Having that as a small wall needs to be considered at this point...does that slot add anything? Natural light is an issue in the kitchen though - the slot allows a little more natural light to hit the island worktop (light from the full light front door and the mirrored closet doors on the right hand side in the rendering below).

The entrance is hard to show in the 3D rendering because itit's pretty cramped. It actually would look like this:

fiesty68:

Have a rectangle of 2" 11 gauge square tube fabricated with the welds ground flush. I'd want to be able to jack the ceiling a bit, install the rectangle, and lower it so I'd know the steel frame was bearing. No shims on this one. Bolt it to the floor and ceiling framing and forget about it. You could even pull the Romex through it.

I can't stamp it, but I'll guarantee this will hold as much or more than the 2x4 and header idea and look a hell of a lot nicer doing it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Steel

This post was edited by Trebruchet on Sat, Apr 5, 14 at 13:51

I sure do like your idea Trebuchet!!...and it would probably work. Just not sure if it would be to industry standard in terms of tying in to joists. We do have a lot of seismic activity here...I feel the building shaking all the time. The engineers are rather fussy about these details. I'm inclined to get a building permit and do things by the book because I don't want to have a nightmare disclosure statement when it comes time to sell (home is small for our family, so it's probably not a "forever" home).

Well, my husband talked more to the senior engineer about this issue. All structural elements need to have approved tie-ins to floor joists in this seismically active area. The building is on bedrock and we feel jiggling several times a week so it's not just theoretical. In order to do more than the replace-one-stud-with-two+header solution, it would be necessary to attach vertical structural elements to the floor joists above and below. In the case of the wood studs they are nailed from above and below to header and footer beams which are then attached to the joists. With steel there would be different methods. The issue is that there isn't really access from above and below to put new vertical structural studs in properly so that they are stable side-to-side. The concrete skim with radiant heating further limits access to the tie-in locations.

The engineer said that, nudge-nudge-wink-wink, probably nothing would happen if we just removed the middle stud. But we don't feel comfortable with that due to the liability/insurance issues associated with owning in a multi-family complex.

So, we have decided to live with three columns. Yes, it's mickey mouse. But the engineer solution isn't worth spending $$$ and getting a building permit. Fortunately, the presence of three columns won't be very prominent from most sightlines in the room. We are choosing three columns over drywalling the whole wall because I think that the mirrored closet doors will be able to bounce light from the south-facing door window into the kitchen through the slits somewhat.

First big compromise of this reno. I really did appreciate the input in this thread - it helped me to think the issue through.

I am wondering about putting glass shelving in between the studs and displaying art or various found object there? It seems like it might be a fun space for pinecones and kid-ceramic projects and the like. It would allow some light to come through still too.

Could you add a mock 3rd column, put shelves with undershelf lighting, and display pretty glass and crystal knick knacks?

Crl, decorative glass shelves in the slits might be a nice touch to take away from the verticality. I will keep that in mind as an option.

Dilzy, there will be three columns already. Shelves between the columns would only be ~ 7.5" inches wide, so probably not worth doing lighting as part of it.

Thanks for the input :)

This was an interesting read, not sure how I missed it the first time around. Sorry for your compromise. It is a biggie and it sure would have been cool to have that as open as possible.

I think that by this time next year you will hardly be giving it a second thought as you work in your gorgeous new kitchen.

Gr8day, that is quite impressive. It's an art to make necessity beautiful!

Greenhaven, thanks for the reassurance. It's been a reality check that you really don't have the same freedom when renovating a condo, compared to a house.