If Im not mistaken that would be known as throwing gasoline on a fire.....

Do you know how long Ive waited to be the voice of reason :)

Boy this was a classic! Yes a heat pump does take the heat (absorb it into the expanding refrigerant gas) from the air primarily. That is how it gets more than 100% eff. and that is why the air coming out is colder than the incoming air! You need to devide the stated cost for the electric equation by the COP factor since that was not taken into account. Yes the heat from the compressor motor (waste heat) is also captured in this process (a good thing).

quote" If I'm not mistaken that would be known as throwing gasoline on a fire..... "quote

I'll second that!!!

Later,
Kelly

QUOTE, HUSKY ENDURO "Please advise on the pros/cons of a heat pump versus a NG heater in our climate."

How funny is it that he has not even posted a response since this question on Jan. 7...?

By the time this thing ends, we'll have exhausted the worlds supplies of natural gas and his question was all for nothing! Poor guy, I told him he should have went with solar. Those guys are nowhere near as smart as the heat pump guys.

quote"
his question was all for nothing!
Poor guy,
I told him he should have went with solar. "quote

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

I'd still like to know what he rides, LOL

Later,
Kelly

Hmmmm Solar... Day hot, night not.

Posted by keithtx (My Page) on Wed, Jan 23, 08 at 22:10

"Boy this was a classic! Yes a heat pump does take the heat (absorb it into the expanding refrigerant gas) from the air primarily. That is how it gets more than 100% eff. and that is why the air coming out is colder than the incoming air! You need to devide the stated cost for the electric equation by the COP factor since that was not taken into account. Yes the heat from the compressor motor (waste heat) is also captured in this process (a good thing)."

That guy gets it too!

"I made a mistake when I said the compressor generates all of the heat"

This one is true!!!

The compressor fails and what do we have? No heat!

Hey, I'll be away and typing on forums with my blackberry is a pain; Im leaving today for NYC to attend the ASHRAE / AHR show at Javitts Center.

On Saturday, I am a guest speaker and mediator for a symposium.

Called: Heat Pumps, Magical. Mystery or Myth?

"If I'm not mistaken that would be known as throwing gasoline on a fire....."

Makes me think, does a fuel injector on a car raise the btu content of gasoline because it is compressed versus a naturally aspirated engine with a carburetor?

See ya next week

Anybody ever noticed how small that little scroll bar is getting on the upper right? Each week it gets smaller and smaller.

Woooooo hoooooo i'm #100.

WOW - I have checked back a few times, I must tell you I am far more confused then I was before posting the question. Thanks for the effort, but the reponses are far to complicated for me to discern. I think I am going to throw a solar cover on my pool and wait out the cold weather. I guess I will try to work this out and have a solution set by the Fall.

BTW - I ride a 1999 TE410

What could be better than Husky himself posting the 101st reply.
I really can't blame you for not responding!!!
Hopefully you got as much enjoyment out of your thread as we all did, LOL!!!
Congrats on the new pool.

See ya,
Kelly

A heater, heats
A heat pump, pumps heat
A compressor, compresses stuff
An expansion valve, expands stuff
A heat exchanger, exchanges heat

And a Fiesta has air con!
:-)

zl700 says:"That guy gets it too!"

Now I am confused, you are agreeing with the guy who says most of the heat comes from air, just like I have been saying, yet all along you have been saying it doesn't get any heat from the air, which is it man?

"This one is true!!!"

So your are admitting a mistake??? Wow zl700 you sure knows how to not be specific.

"The compressor fails and what do we have? No heat!"

If a water pump fails you have no water, does that mean it creates the water?

"Makes me think, does a fuel injector on a car raise the btu content of gasoline because it is compressed versus a naturally aspirated engine with a carburetor?"

Wow don't even start, you know better than to say you can compress a liquid (gasoline), besides the fact that gasoline has a fixed number of BTU's per gallon (about 125,000) based on it's blend and the engine doesn't change that in any way, it only can only convert more of those BTU's to mechanical work the more efficent it is. A normal gas engine is about 20% efficent wasting 80% of the BTU's to the cooling system and exhaust.

If you are somehow trying to refer to the air-fuel mix being compressed since you said "naturally aspirated", then you should know an injector does not do this, but a turbo or super charger would. These devices compress the air-fuel mixture to allow more air and fuel into the combustion chamber at once hence more BTU's per cycle, this does not change how many BTU's are in the fuel only how much fuel is burned in the compression stroke.

I don't want to make this thread wander further ;), but it is interesting to note that a heat pump is similar to a internal combustion engine in that a heat pump is a inverse of a heat engine(such as a gasoline engine). Where a I.C.E burns fuel to make a hot source which naturally wants to go to cool exhaust and some useful mechanical work is extracted (through the pistons), a heat pump puts some mechanical work in(through the compressor) to move heat "uphill" from cool to hot, these both follow the Carnot cycle just in different directions.

huskyenduro,

You need to google for a pool heater calculator... there are several out there. It'll compare LP, NG, Heat Pump costs.

-Gorilla

Thought I would help move this back up to the top.

Reeled in a big one

Cast again??

So zl700 since I can't convince you the heat pump get most of it's heat from the air, and Trane can't and Aqualcal can't, what about the guy's in the HVAC forum, you seem to stop responding after pyropaul let you have it?

Come on let see if I can nail you down to answering a question instead avoiding them like you have been.

An air source heat pump with a COP of 4 putting out 100,000 BTU's of heat get's how many BTU's from the outside air?

I'll even make it multiple choice:

A) 0
B) 25,000
C) 75,000
D) 100,000

Sorry, I was on briefly last night from the hotel lobby waiting for my ride for dinner and flights all day today getting home from NYC, so what did I miss?

"most of it's heat from the air, and Trane can't and Aqualcal can't"

Well deny it if you wish, but besides what you have stated numerous times, they both say in many and various statements that the compressor adds heat from the compression cycle.

My point going back way to the beguinning was; the compressor creates the heat (temp) as a efficient heat creating compressor with a energy efficient motor. Again don't be fooled the compressor creates the heat! Without energy expended to the compressor there would be no heat pump cycle.

If there was no compressor there would be no movement of fluid or exchanges of temperatures (that should make you happy)

How can anyone deny the compressor makes the heat?

Z -
No doubt that the temperature of the refrigerant drastically increases when compressed at the compressor. I'm curious, though - are you equating that to an increase in the amount of heat in the refrigerant?

Z said: "My point going back way to the beguinning was; the compressor creates the heat (temp) as a efficient heat creating compressor with a energy efficient motor. Again don't be fooled the compressor creates the heat! Without energy expended to the compressor there would be no heat pump cycle."

I like you Z even though I do not know you. But c'mon now... when you make the statement above, you are saying "the compressor creates the heat." And you are really saying the compressor creates 100% of the heat since your quote does not imply a portion of heat is created by the compressor... so one would interpret you saying all of the heat is created by the compressor.

I've had Thermo classes in college. I've read up on heat pumps. So I will say this for you one more time (please read carefully) - "It is impossbile for a device to generate more energy than it consumes."

My AquaCal consumes approx 6 KW per hour. As God as my witness, my AquaCal cannot use just a compressor and fluids to *generate* more than 6 KW per hour. It just cannot since it is governed by the laws of physics. But it can, and does, transfer heat from one place to another.

We all know that the compressor creates **some** of the heat. That is common knowledge. But if you keep sayng the compressor creates ALL the heat, you will quickly lose credibility (you alreay have in the HVAC forum), an no one will respect your advice.

-Gorilla

I like you too Gorilla, even though your names draws a picture in my mind of a stumpy guy with lots of body hair.

LOL!!!

"It is impossible for a device to generate more energy than it consumes."

Gorilla, that statement is true (in more ways than you know). One example- I have had the opportunity to witness and observe a co-generation unit produced by Honda (not in US yet) that operates on Nat Gas, produces electric and rejects heat via fluids. It is being tested by the HVAC industry to produce electric avail to house or sell back to grid and the heat is rejected to an air coil or loop such as radiant or to a storage tank or preheater for DHW. You could throw in steam gen, nuclear and a few others in that classification.

And yes the compressor does create the majority of the heat (NOTE: NOT TEMP) to support the simple heat pump cycle. Again with out proper and appreciable temp exchanges, the refrigeration process would falter.

Good one Jmas; heat and temp, especially in this case is measured, determined, used and referred to differently.

Almost forgot to add in my response-
Actually and it has become my purpose, there still is a descrepancy out there in understanding how a heat pump works. I'm certainly not embarrassed about my convictions, in fact find it stimulatimg that so many people take a stance on one side or the other.

Don't believe me? invite 4 heating contractors to your house for a consultation and ask the them how a heat pump works.

Again and again and again, if the heat pump compressor was not pumping,or the expansion valve was plugged and bypassing for that matter, how would the temp be gained from anouther source such as the air?

Now back to a earlier point; if the combined current draw of the condenser fan and compresser was not as efficient as they have achieved today, we would be looking at entirely different fuel usage comparisons which again equates to the compressor being the workhorse and heat/temp creator of a heat pump system.

Z,
"Good one Jmas; heat and temp, especially in this case is measured, determined, used and referred to differently."

"...which again equates to the compressor being the workhorse and heat/temp creator..."

Would you mind differentiating between heat and temperature?
Thanks...

Read backwards, it's been covered

Oh what the heck, for some of you-

Heat: energy transferred from one body or system to another due to a difference in temperature

Temperature: a physical property of a system that underlies the common notions of hot and cold; something that is hotter generally has the greater temperature

You can find many times the statement I have made prior that heat is a relative term used to describe energy processes not temp differences.

I dont think there is any need to reverse back on this post again Jmas unless, there is a need to make it a posting record.

zl700,

"How can anyone deny the compressor makes the heat?"

zl700 who here is denying it makes some of the heat?

You have however been saying the compressor makes 100% of the heat or are you not saying that anymore?

Does anyone even know what zl700 is saying at this point, first he says this stuff:

"The heat is generated by the compressor and only that"

"how then can a heat pump heat the pool water to 85 if the air temp outside is 60? Gathering heat from the air, dont think so. "

Now he says:

"And yes the compressor does create the majority of the heat "

Without once saying he was mistaken, does this make any sense to anyone?

zl700 come on aren't you going to answer my simple multiple choice question?

I'll even give you the formula:

QH=heat exhausted in BTU
QH=heat extracted in BTU
W=work into the compressor in Watts

For heating: COP = QH / (W*3.413)
For cooling: COP = QC / (W*3.413)

Correction on the formula:

QH=heat exhausted in BTU
QC=heat extracted in BTU
W=work into the compressor in Watts

One more and it's time for weigh in

Wow zl700 can't even get you to answer a multiple choice, hope your customers have better luck getting answers out of you.

So how about it zl700 does the compressor generate all the heat or not because your talking out of both side of your mouth:

"The heat is generated by the compressor and only that"

"And yes the compressor does create the majority of the heat "

Which is it???

I don't have any customers. I sold my business to the energy consolidators over 6 years ago, I had a 5-year clause to stay on and finished my working days in August.
Not bad by the age of 45, and my dad the first gen, received way more $ upfront for his retirement rather than waiting for me to buy him out. Now I just watch my stock options for excitement and take trips.

Oh and yes the compressor does generate all the heat. If it wasn't pumping where would the heat come from?

Damn I'm sure glad your out of the biz.

Your not being very clear, does the compressor generate all of the heat or a majority of it, cause you keep flip-flopping?

If the compressor generates all the heat then where does the heat that goes in the evaporator end up?

In the white corner is our jabber

And in our other corner the one who already weighed in!!!

See ya,
Kelly

I just noticed, they both lead with a left!!!

ROTFLMAO

Later,
Kelly

Third one reeled in.
Time to head back for weigh in

I've been a reader for awhile and now am a "poster" I guess.

JHarrell, ZL700's references are to fishing, tourney bass perhaps. I believe he enjoys playing you. IMO your obsession with this posting is incredible.

Anyways, my pool started just before Christmas, and with two weeks off for workers and now all the rain we have had in Katy, TX.. I find myself waiting for my deck to be poured. Not that I planned on swimming but the dirt and construction mess tends to get tracked into the house. Thanks to all for all the insight I have gathered helping me to make a lot of choices on my pool.

bf-tx,

I know he is just avoiding my questions now and playing games, it not as thought I believe I can get a straight answer out of him, it's just a game now to see how he can avoid logic with nonsense.

I might as well ask him what 2+2 is only to watch him reply "nah nah" like a 3 year old.

I won't lie to you, I am playing a game too, otherwise why would I keep replying with rational questions to someone who won't answer them. It's just debate practice for me at this point, he already looks ignorant in this forum and the HVAC forum.

jharrell,

"looks ignorant"

-Ignorance about an issue is said to be "rational" when the cost of educating oneself about the issue sufficiently to make an informed decision can outweigh any potential benefit one could reasonably expect to gain from that decision, and so it would be irrational to waste time doing so.

What do you do for a living?

Posted by jharrell (My Page) on Sun, Jan 20, 08 at 20:39

"I know I made some mistakes and correct any error on my part please, but this is an epic thread no matter what have fun with it:"

Would your own statement label you as a self-admitted ignoramus?

Z said: "Oh and yes the compressor does generate all the heat. If it wasn't pumping where would the heat come from?"

Z, you said **generate**. Which means to produce, or create... or bring into existence. Way different than saying transfer or move (what a heat pump does). So by your own words, and limits imposed by the dictionary, the compressor cannot **generate** all the heat because it is not **creating** all the heat.

As long as heat in the air is involved in the heat pump process, and it is since colder incoming air lowers the COP and warmer incoming air increases the COP, then by definition, some heat is being **transferred** and not actually created. So your quote is incorrect.

Whew... glad we solved that mystery. Now I can sleep nights without worrying about this thread :)

-Gorilla

zl700,

I am sure you did just fine in the HVAC business with your obvious ignorance of how a heat pump functions, so perhaps your statement is true for your level of education, that it may have been an irrational choice to take time out to learn basic physics and then refrigeration as it may have affected your income, although now that you are retired that situation may present itself to be more irrational.

Why does it matter what I do for a living, unlike you I would like to keep the dicussion about how a heat pump functions not our career choices or what we do in our free time.

"Would your own statement label you as a self-admitted ignoramus?"

I would be an ignoramus if I did not admit I made a mistake, much like yourself.

Just for a little insight & confirmation to your obsession and fervor

For one who has just as many post here as me it's very odd to criticize me for being obsessed, now your moving from ignorance to hypocrisy.

Besides this is about what a heat pump does, not what I do, stop trying to change the subject.

My posts have always been an answer, not a challenge-big difference.

Also, I can't be accused of rehashing and continuing to bring the post to front as you have in more than one forum.

Big difference between us, yours is the obsession that seeks validation and recognition.

"One more and it's time for weigh in"

You call that some kind of answer, looks like avoiding answers to me. Besides being a pointless post that brought the thread back up, sorry guy your hypocrisy is getting worse now.

The only reason I brought it back up in the other forum was because you never answered the questions posed there, so I figured I would close it up and low an behold how did you respond:

"Just reeled in my third, time for weigh in"

Nice answer there too buddy. While I ask you questions about the physics of heat pumps I get back vague references to fishing tournaments, your such a wealth of information.

I seek no validation, I simply don't want the well understood workings of heat pumps to be mutilated by your misinformation simply because your ego is to big to admit where you went wrong.

Let me ask you a few simple questions and answer them directly so we may end this on agreeable terms, here is my first:

When a 3 ton heat pump is used to cool a building how many BTU/h's will it normally remove from the inside air under ideal conditions?

Would that water source/closed loop?

I weighed in and had the highest scale weight but was disqualified because, one was a sucker!

Not sure why the source matters in answering how many BTU/h a 3 Ton unit removes from the buildings air since 3 Tons is 3 Tons of cooling regardless.

Hopefully your not trying to avoid the question since you could have answered without further detail, but I'll play along. I was refering to a standard air source heat pump like say a Trane XR13 and matched air handler.

Look it up yourself, I could care less-

http://www.trane.com/residential/products/HeatPumps/XR13.aspx

Come on man you know I wasn't asking the question to get pointed to a spec sheet, I wanted your answer not Tranes, beside you think Trane lies anyway.

Hard to believe someone with so much industry experience couldn't throw out the answer from their head since it is a simple conversion, I thought all your replies where supposed to be answers not challenges.

Well no point in continuing, it obvious why you avoid answering the question as it would admit a heat pump actually pulls heat out of cooler air, that darn ego is just too big to get around for you I suppose.

Trane does not lie! Never came from me

I think we both discovered they explain the operation in both or many ways.

MEEEOW!!!

Later,
Kelly

I would like to let this go but I really want to get my head around where you are coming from zl700.

When I posted probably the simplest explaination of a heat pump I could find from Tranes web site:

http://www.trane.com/Residential/Products/HeatPumps/Mysteri.aspx

"In a similar way, a heat pump simply extracts the heat that's present in outdoor air in winter and delivers it inside your home to keep you warm and comfortable."
You said:

"I guess Trane Co. is like a politician, they like to say or write a little about everything that people may want to hear or already know"

Do you agree with what they said, because you seem to imply they are not telling the truth?

Because if Trane is not lying then you where incorrect when you said the compressor generates all the heat right?

Can't have your cake and eat it to.