I'm not qualified to talk about how many pumps you will need, but I do have some basic info about the Intelliflo.

You can use your existing control system, but you will need an Intellicomm unit (approx $350) for each pump and you will need an available relay for each different speed you want to run (with a maximum of 4 speeds per pump).

A better solution would be to buy the Intellitouch controller. That can talk to 8 or more Intelliflo pumps simultaneously, either the 4x160 or the 3.2kW. Plus, I don't think you need any relays at all, so you could probably get away with their smallest model.

So Peterl1365, I could keep my controller but I would have to have more than the 1 relay that I think I have left available?

I think you are right and the intellitouch would be a better solution except for the cost. I just don't see the electrical bills getting any smaller. Do you think that these pumps would be worth it to move to? It almost seems like I would break even in about a year with those 2 pumps going all the time.

Thanks,
Chris

Since you're in PG&E territory, your electric rate is probably somewhere around $.30 per kWh. I'm in SoCal Edison, and my rate is about $0.32/kWh. There is an increase coming in the next month, and that rate will be going to about $0.36 and another tier will be added so the top rate will be about $0.48

There will be some compromises. The greatest energy savings are predicated upon intelligently managing your pumping times. Instead of blindly pumping for 8 or 10 hours per day, you should experiment or calculate exactly how little filtering you can get away with. That said, I am told that the Intelliflo will save about 30% even at the same flow rates as your existing pumps.

The cost of the Intellitouch will be significantly offset by the fact that you do not need to purchase the Intellicomm modules, which cost around $400 each. Using your existing controller, you would probably need about 4-8 available relays (minimum) to take advantage of the variable speed capabilities and optimize your flow rate to the appropriate task, so I don't know that it's even a viable option.

Also, keep in mind that PG&E probably offers a rebate for replacing old motors with Intelliflos. I think it's $100 per pump. I think it used to be more. SCE is offering $200.

For me, it's a no brainer. I'm building my first pool, and the incremental cost of the pump is relatively small. To replace pumps that are already in service means that the payback time is doubled or tripled. I will probably recoup the additional cost in the first 6 months. Since you will probably need to purchase the Intellitouch, it could be 18-24 months.

chris r11,
It's a little unusual to have two pumps for an infloor system. I assume that the number of floor heads requires two water valves to operate correctly and one pump operates one water valve after going thru the filter and heater and a second pump operates a second water valve without filtration?
It is possible to replace both pumps with either intelliflow from a GPM standpoint. Make sure you have enough suction to accomadate the gpm's necessary. Also, you will have to bypass a portion the water around the filter and heater because it is unlikely you have a large enough filter to handle the increased flow rate. If you are using a Sta-Rite 53 sq. ft. D.E. filter you will only pass about 106 gpm thru the filter. Your two 1 1/2 hp are probably giving you close to 150 gpm combined. The biggest abstacle is making sure you match the components and flow rates to make everything work properly.
The advantage, in your case, with using an intelliflow is you will be able to dial in the optimum flow rates for the system. Just swapping pumps, when you need the same flow rates, will not save you a significant amount of money.
It doesn't sound like your system was designed to be economically efficient to operate. Good luck

Hi Golf Geek,

I don't know if it was designed to be efficient or not, I have a separate supply and return for the in floor. It is on one pump and the filter has it's own pump and it just like a regular pool filter would with the auto valves to the spa, solar, etc. I don't know if that helped explain it or not. The in floor is it's own system, but for some reason, it has to have the filter pump on to work.

I will try to take a picture or draw it out....

Thanks,

Chris

OK, here is a (lame) drawing of the pool equipment. Sorry, I don't have Visio installed so I had to do this with paint. Don't laugh too hard at my drawing, but that is about how the plumbing is.

{{gwi:2020849}}

So, do I need a seperate pump for each like I do now or can I combine some?

Thanks,
Chris

Hi All.

I am still considering doing this and was wondering if anyone like Deeker could shed some light on this. I would like to be armed with some information before I spoke with the pool company.

Thanks,
Chris

There are several things to consider when considering changing pump systems.
I put all of my infloor cleaning systems on a seperate system. I have tried it both ways and I like the way the system operates without competing with the filter system. The pool filter must be on because there is a spa. The spa would loose water if the cleaning system were on by itself. (this means that the cleaning system is sucking water from the spa to remove the debris in the spa) Sure the heads are returning to the spa when its in the spa zone, but it would not take long for the spa to drain.
Your in-floor cleaning system should have been designed for your pool. The number of heads and the pump size was calculated in determining the setup of your pool.

If you are considering changing to an Intelliflo system you may want to check out the size of the plumbing from the main drains and the skimmers. These two pumps are computor driven. This means they can be programmed to circulate a specific amount of water over a set period of time. The bigger plumbing you have, the easier it is for the pump to operate. If you have 2" PVC it would take more energy to for the pump to operate than if you had 2 1/2" or 3". These are important things to consider when talking about changing pumps.

Hi Troy2007,

The infloor is on a separate system but has to be on while the filter pump is on not because of the spa (the suction is off all the time unless in spa mode) but because of the paramounts cleaner bag (I still don't know how it is really tied to the skimmer, but supposedly it is).

I am about 99% sure that the pipes are 2" from the drains and skimmers. There is 2.5" but it is only on the supply and return for the spa pump. I don't know if that helps explain how it is setup or not.

Chris

Sorry I am months late on catching up on the board and probably to late to help you but for all the upcoming new pool owners this may help. Also welcome your new PG&E bill to run your pool.
You probably have a Paramount PCC 2000 infloor system which they require a separate pump to run the infloor set everyday for 8-10 hours. You also have a separate pump for filtering the water in your pool  set for 8-10 hours a day.
Probably to late now but for all new pool owners please use a single 4x160 for both infloor and filtering on this application. The idea of cleaning your pool 8 -10 hours a day is crazy - do you mow your lawn everyday for 8 hours? Vacuum your carpet for 8 hours a day? Why clean your pool 8 hours a day? It is obscenely expensive and inefficient.

On the Intelliflo VS 3050 model set speed one to turnover 18,000 Gallons in 8 hours - that equals approx. 40 GPM a minute. Your 1.5 HP is probably 80 GPM minimum - why? It is wasteful, expensive and accomplishes nothing.
Speed 2 set for the infloor - all infloors are little different in water requirements. Visibly look at the infloor and adjust the IntelliFlo to the GPM that makes the system work.. I can assure you it is not 80-90-100 GPM's.
Now, through your automation, set the speed 2 to come on for 2-3-4 hours a day once every, once every 2 days, or whatever works best for your pool.

After 2 years and thousands of training classes the Intelliflo has changed the game. If your builder does not understand it, will not offer it I would suggest is you look around for someone that keeps up with the technology available.

Deek

Hello Deeker,

Actually, my builder is still working with Paramount to find the best solution for this. They, supposedly, have a test pool they are working on. I guess they are trying to decide if they can get away with one pump for both the filter(+solar, spa heat) and for the infloor.

The builder is getting sort of flustered with the length this process is taking, too. We may just go with 2 separate pumps, as it is now. To me, that sounds the most efficient and easiest to setup. What do you think?

Right now, I run the filter 6 hours and the in-floor for 3 - it seem to do the job as I never have to clean the pool. If you want to contact me, that would be great (email is in my profile) or maybe give the paramount guys a subtle nudge in the right direction, I would be greatful.

Anyway, thanks for the response, hoping this will be done soon.

Chris

Chris, It's very simple.

During the day when the solar is working you have it running through the filter returns.

At night when the solar is off you have the pump increase the RPM'S (or GPM) and return through the infloor.

The other option is to put a booster pump on the solar so that it would put no added strain on the filter pump, to that you can run them both simultaneously and efficiently, but I see this costing more money to operate.

This way there is no concern as to whether or not the system will work together.

I am not sure why someone needs a test pool to figure this out.

Also I am not quite sure why you would need the full blown intelliflo when the 4X160 will do the same job. It's not that important to maintain a specific GPM in a backyard pool when setting the RPM is more than sufficient.

I would use a GPM control in a commecial setting, or when I have to control the ammount of water flowing trough a water feature.

Thanks for the note Racket.

You are correct, it is actually the 4x160 and I, honestly have no idea why it has taken 6 months to get this figured out. I have blown, by my calculations, about $600 additional dollars on PG&E.

Anyway, The infloor returns to the skimmer and the pool jets return to the main drain - I don't know why, but that is how it is setup, so I was told that both pumps have to be on at the same time, currently. The main goal is to save electricity, so I figure operating 2 pumps at their most efficient speed would be better than one - is that logic flawed?

So, my thoughts on the pump speeds (and keep in mind I really know nothing :) ) is that

Speed 1: regular filter
Speed 2: filter and solar
Speed 3: spa heat
Speed 4: Spa spill over only (don't have that now with my RS6, but I think I can with the intellitouch system)

Then, just use one speed for the in-floor on separate pump.

The pool builder is waiting for Paramount to tell him how they want the system setup to keep warranty, etc. He is a bit frustrated by the time they are taking to figure this out as well.

Chris

Racket is right on in his comments.

Think of it this way:
Paramount has always spec'd a separate pump with many of their infloor systems. Now there is a pump that can be programmed to be set for multiple speeds: Speeds for filtering, speeds for infloor, speeds for solar, etc. This is very different thinking for Paramount and many others. It has taken them a long time to accept the fact that pumps only move water. If their systems requires XYZ gallons to operate then set a speed to XYZ !!!

Actually from a builders point of view the 4x160 overcomes obstacles that all builders face: Biggest one is all pools are like snow flakes - each one is different. What ends up happening is all pools receive a spec for a 1.5 HP or 2 HP depending on the number of infloor zones in the pool. Often pools are started and infloor heads do not perform as planned. Something happens between the pool plan submitted and the Paramount spec. No one was wrong but in the real world things do not go as planned. The 4x160 overcomes all that and can be easily custom set for the right flow rate for each pool.
Solar requires very little water to operate. Racket is right that this should happen during the sunlight hours. The 4x160 can easily set during these hours to ramp up RPM's (more GPM's) to operate solar while filtering your pool. It can be set up react to the solar call.

Please remember there are 2 pumps within the IntelliFlo Line: a VS (Variable Speed) 3050 (commonly known as a 4x160). This pump has 4 setting for speeds, 8 speeds through automation, and works great on an infloor.
The full blown Intelliflo is called VF (Variable Flow) 3050. This pump automatically regulates the flow of water that the pool requires. This pump constantly changes RPM's as the filter get dirty and more pressure on the system increase. Among other differences the pump also has its own built in timer and most importantly can detect blockage on the suction side of the pump. When a blockage or reduction in flow is detected the pump RPM will react. This causes problems on an infloor system as in some cases on an infloor different pressures are constantly required during the infloor cycle. This can confuse the IntelliFlo VF 3050 pump.
No such thing happens on the VS 3050. It works awesome on infloor systems. Paramount will be coming out with a letter throwing holy water on the VS 3050 in a matter of days. This was driven by their dealer base who get it, understand it and in many cases already use the pump and pushed Paramount to "get it" official now.
All this being said the money you are saving on filtering - infloor - whatever is a minimum of 30-40% and more likely in the 50-70% range.
Again this is not black magic or sales BS - this is the biggest game changing product the industry has seen in an equipment pad and possible the biggest product change ever.
It is just hard to teach old dogs new tricks but the public has caught on to this and is pushing the builders to change as cost of running a pool is a serious issue to those of us who have to pay the bill.

Deek

Deek and Racket,

So, you feel that one pump can do it all for me?

I should have the solar and filter go during the day and the infloor at night -- and that will allow me to save money on electricity? When the pool came on line, my electricity went up about 100 in the winter and 150 in the summer and I run the Max E Flows for 6 hours filter/solar and 3 infloor.

I guess I am confused how it can balance the supply and returns as currently my filter pump comes back through the main drain and the in floor feeds through the skimmer. What I mean by this statement is can the intellitouch put the supply and return valves in the correct position? I always thought they were "on" or "off" and not only rotating 30% or so. As I said "this pool owner"=enough knowledge to be dangerous.

"Paramount will be coming out with a letter throwing holy water on the VS 3050 in a matter of days. This was driven by their dealer base who get it, understand it and in many cases already use the pump and pushed Paramount to "get it" official now." - I can hardly wait as maybe this will get this project moving.

Again, thanks for all the help and I am fully aware that this pump is a great thing.
Chris

Answer is the IntelliTouch or EZ Touch automation control the actuator valves. You set the flow rate of the pump and the pumps what you told it to pump.
Automation then takes over. Through your relays on the automation, you name what relay you want and what you want it to do and for how long you want it to it for.
Relay 1 - filter at XYZ for 6 hours.
Relay 2 - filter and solar. When solar valve opens asking for more GPM to solar panels automation recognizes this request and IntelliFlo kicks in to the higher RPM (which you set) for that solar relay
Relay 3 - infloor. You set the time to turn this on, length of operation. The RPM's again are set by you.

Without going through building the watch for you the savings will be dramatic on energy costs. Reasons are:

1) you are sizing to the pump to the systems needs verses just a pump working full blast (3450 RPM's) all the time.
2)IntelliFlos have rare earth magnets in the motor which greatly reduce the AMP draw required to turn the motor on and keep the motor rotating
3) and finally the IntelliFlo motor is rated at 8.5 HP. The impeller used by Pentair is only a 3HP impeller and the load on the motor is virtually nothing.

These 3 things equal 40-70% savings.

PS - the automation will show you on the screen exactly how many watts you are consuming. The pumps you are using today are probably using 1900 - 2200 watts. The IntelliFlo will show 400 - 700 watts depending on RPM's.
Pretty cool.

Deek

great write ups folks ... very informative thank you. I have new pool equipment being installed nextweek. PB is using all pentair products. Im contracted for intellitouch automation but with standard whisperflo 2hp pump. I asked PB about the intelliflo pump and he didnt know much about it. are there other accessories etc needed to upgrade the system? Is it just a pump upgrade being that Im setup for intellitouch? thanks in advance

No other accessories needed you would just be upgrading the pump. The IntelliTouch is already IntelliFlo ready and they will automatically communicate with one another.
What part of the country are you in? I maybe able to help the builder with any questions.
Deek

Man Deeker, if you could help in giving the builder a shove, I mean push, that would be GREAT.

You can call Lifetime Pools in Palo Alto. They have been really great in working with me on this pump swap-out but are just as stuck as I am waiting on Paramount to get this all figured out to their satisfaction. (the one pump or two thing) And, I really do understand that everyone just wants to get it done correctly the first time.

Again, if you want to contact me directly, the email is in my profile on this board.

Chris

deeker thank you for the feedback and the offer for phone assisst. Im going to speak with PB regarding my growing list upgrades and now the intelliflo pump. Any idea cost difference on 2hp whisperflo vs intelliflo? thanks again deeker...metalmachinery in so.calif

matalmachinery: The 4x160 will be a little over 2-2.5 times the cost of a 2HP Full Rated Whisperflo. Many, many builders in So. Cal are ready using the pump as a standard. You probably have SCE as a utility - there are substantial rebates available to you from that utility. Link below.
$200.00 back to you and the builder can also receive a 100.00 back. After the 200.00 back the pump would be just over 150.00 more than the 2 HP WF. The payback on your energy is significant and on going.

http://www.sce.com/RebatesandSavings/Residential/_Pool/PoolPumpandMotor/

Chris - Ray at Lifetime is an outstanding buiilder - one of the very best. He will be receiving his Paramount letter this week.

Also you are eligable for a rebate with this pump - check your utilities web page for info. If you are PG&E link is below.

http://www.pge.com/includes/docs/pdfs/catalogs/res_catalog.pdf

Hey Deeker, can you shed some light on the SCE rebates? I installed a 4x160 pump on my new pool back in Jan/Feb of this year. When I contacted SCE about the rebate, I was told that Intelliflo pumps used in new construction were not eligible for the rebate. I'd be curious to know if you've been told something different.

peter1365,
I cannot answer why thay was said to you. Both IntelliFlo pumps qualify and receive the rebate. I will get back to you.
Attached below is the SGE link showing all the pumps listed by SGE that qualify for rebate. 4 speeds are on page 10.
Go get your money !!
Deek

http://www.sce.com/NR/rdonlyres/53ECC9EA-6062-465B-957E-DFCA5A766603/0/2007ADJSTATEWIDELISTREV0_JAN07.pdf

peter,
I meant to say the 4 speeds are listed on page 8
deek

Thanks Deeker.

There's no dispute that the 4x160 is eligible. What the SCE rep told me is that only *replacement* pumps are eligible for the rebate. Since my pool was new, there was no "inefficient" pump to replace.

I may try submitting the rebate anyway.

This is great information, I wish I had it a few weeks ago. My PB just installed and started a Whisperflo pump on my new pool this past Thursday, set up with an Easytouch system. Would my savings between this and the 4x160 be enough to make it worth my while to pressure the PB to swap them out? Do you think they would swap it out with only the upcharge, since Whisperflo hasn't been running 5 days yet??

Thanks for a quick response so I can call the PB tomorrow.

The 4x160 is not an attractive installation for SCE rebates as it is not under an automatice controller. If you are installing a controller such as an Intellitouch, it will qualify but that controller has to be documented in writing with your rebate. Non Pentair controllers or two speed clocks require an Intellicom and by the time you add all that in, you may as well pay the extra for the true Intelliflo 3.2kw as it offers greater value. Granted, the 4x160 is on the California statewide approved pump list but to say it qualifies for the $200 rebate is to ignore the wording under it that clearly says it requires a controller. Four speeds do not save energy if they cannot be programmed to change.

By the way, consider seeking out an "authorized installer" from Pentair as they can pass along a better rebate to you than the $200 from SCE AND they can process your rebate without any work from you and any form filling out.

repair guy,
You are correct. Under the rebate offered by SCE and PG&E a controller of some sort must be used to control the pumps such as 2 speed pumps and the 4x160 VS 3050. The IntelliFlo VF 3050 has a built in timer and does not require a controller.
Issue is: if a customer has an existing automatic controller like a jandy or Polaris system and not a EZ Touch or IntelliTouch an Intellicom must be purchased to communicate with other mfg.'s controllers.

One point of contention with 4 speeds not saving money verses 2 speeds and other pumps. The 4 speed by desigh saves money on energy no matter what speed it is running on when compared to other pumps. This is due to a combination of the motor and magnets. For example you can have a 1 HP EE efficient single speed or two speed pump, plumbed perfectly, with 45's instead of 90's, 2.5 inch plumbing to the point of putting your foot on the motor to make sure it is running. Put a flow meter and amp meter on this pump - replace with a 4 speed with one speed set at the same GPM as the 1 HP and you will see the amp draw being 30-40% less.

Deek