I am no floor plan guru.... What a great challenge - the end result will be such a transformation. Is she planning on any additional renovations/remodleing to the rest of the house, and if so, what and when? Would she be open to consulting with an architect? Since being "historically sensitive" is important to her, the right architect could have some ideas regarding the whole layout of this floor.

Here are some additional questions in no particular order:

What is her budget? Not knowing her budget makes it hard to know what can and can't be attempted to change the space to better suit her needs.

What are her needs -how much does she use her kitchen? How many in her family?

How long is she planning on staying in the house (does she have to worry about resale)?

Are the stairs up and down the only stairs in the house (if she eliminates one, does she still have a way to get to that floor of the house)?

What is on the other side of the door at the refrigerator end of the kitchen?

Could the dining room door be moved so that a longer run of counter/cabinets could be placed in the space (for example, if the dining room is along that whole wall of the kitchen, could she move the opening to opposite the stairs going downstairs)?

Can the pocket door between the fridge and the cabinets next to the range be removed?

Can the cabinet to the right of the "grandmother" be removed and the wall the "grandmother" is on extended to where the stairs go downstairs?

Could the "grandmother" of the kitchen be relocated to another room, the dining room for example?

Why doesn't she want to open the kitchen to the dining room (this might help in understanding what she is looking for in a kitchen space)?

What is the layout of the rest of this floor of the house - not knowing the rest of the layout for that floor, it is hard to see what other possibilities there are.

What is the "charm" about the house she is trying to preserve? For example, she could do this through era-appropriate light fixtures or hardware on the cabinets.

More questions....

Can the entire wall, not just pocket door, be removed (and the matching stub of a wall on the other end of the opening)?

What appliances does she plan to have? It looks like a:
* 30" range
* 30" range hood
* standard depth (31-3/4"D+handles), 34"W refrigerator
* 24" DW
* sink to fit a 33" SB
* What about a MW?

Does your friend already have all of these appliances? Are they "set in stone"?

First, I highly recommend sizing for a 36"Wx72"H refrigerator, regardless of what she's getting. The "excess" can be filled w/filler that can be removed if needed later. Why? Because fewer & fewer refrigerators are being made today with smaller dimensions than those. 10 years down the line, when the refrigerator needs replacing, you want to be able to put one in w/o drastic cutting up of existing cabinets to make it fit (or having to search far and wide to find one to fit).

Second, I recommend a 36" wide range hood, not 30".

Is she willing to move the DR doorway?

Does the sink have to be centered under the window?

Is the radiator still functional? Or, is it a left-over from when it was used to heat the room?

kitchen redo & Budge

Thanks for your excellent ?'s and pts. I'll email her & get back

thanks!

This has a little structural change. I killed the little wall with the pocket door. On the mother hutch wall, I embedded either a pantry or broom closet - full height to match the hutch.

The counter depth ref thing is fine, but it can't go in that corner because the door of the ref is too close to the wall. If you lift the ref out of the corner, its more accessible, closer to the sink, but the range is further. The range seems more protected back in its corner.

Dunno - it's pick your poison about the position of those two.

If they're thinking about a table in the little corner in front of the stairs, they must not use those stairs? If that's true, pop the doors off (they aren't original anyway) and install a utility cab or an open shelf unit and trim out with molding - not to hide the fact that its' sitting on a step - just to beautify it. Part of an old house is compromises and I wouldn't hide it.

{{gwi:1730301}}

bmore
You are so very kind ! I knew you would chime in
I'll send it off and get back
I was thinking the same about the stairs totally agree

Big gratitude!

What about something like one of these?

Sink wall 27" deep. I didn't think it was a good idea to go any deeper since the south wall is only ~24-1/2" deep and I don't think you want much more than 3 or 4 inches beyond that.

Until we know more (i.e., answers to the questions above), I think this is as far as we can go...

BTW...I put in a CD refrigerator rather than the standard depth b/c she has a narrow aisle already...only 36". If her budget can swing it, I actually recommend a built-in that's truly 24" deep.

The 9" wide tall cabinet could be a utility cabinet for broom, etc.

If she has no pantry storage elsewhere, then the second one is a better idea...

(FYI...A MW drawer has a drawer beneath it for storage.)

Buehl - Great job! That would mean relocating the "grandmother" - Working on that...
I do like the space much more, offers more function - increases prep etc..

I am going to try to answer some ?s

What is her budget? Not knowing her budget makes it hard to know what can and can't be attempted to change the space to better suit her needs.

- A - She has saved for a relatively high end renovation - custom cabs, wood flooring, high end appliances

What are her needs -how much does she use her kitchen? How many in her family?

-A - Right now it is just she and she has taken a long distance position, so is only home on weekends.

How long is she planning on staying in the house (does she have to worry about resale)?

- She will be in the home for quite sometime, but yes sensitivity will be given to resale... you never know!

Are the stairs up and down the only stairs in the house (if she eliminates one, does she still have a way to get to that floor of the house)?

- I believe those are the only stairs, she would rather not eliminate either

What is on the other side of the door at the refrigerator end of the kitchen? -
- I'm taking a bit of a guess - the rest of the first floor which she would not be opposed to closing that off if something can be gained design wise

Could the dining room door be moved so that a longer run of counter/cabinets could be placed in the space (for example, if the dining room is along that whole wall of the kitchen, could she move the opening to opposite the stairs going downstairs)?

-I suppose that could be considered but again measured against what the gain would be.

Can the pocket door between the fridge and the cabinets next to the range be removed?
Yes

Can the cabinet to the right of the "grandmother" be removed and the wall the "grandmother" is on extended to where the stairs go downstairs?

- Good ? & I'm not sure of that right now - that is where 2 sets of stairs are (Up/Down) so may be tricky

Could the "grandmother" of the kitchen be relocated to another room, the dining room for example?
- Working on that one - possibly

Why doesn't she want to open the kitchen to the dining room (this might help in understanding what she is looking for in a kitchen space)?

- Peservation of the original architectural intent of the house

What is the layout of the rest of this floor of the house - not knowing the rest of the layout for that floor, it is hard to see what other possibilities there are.

What is the "charm" about the house she is trying to preserve? For example, she could do this through era-appropriate light fixtures or hardware on the cabinets.

- Orig intent of architect - old home character

* 30" range - YES
* 30" range hood - Yes
* standard depth (31-3/4"D+handles), 34"W refrigerator
** Design will determine refrig dimension
* 24" DW -yes
* sink to fit a 33" SB - design will drive that answer
* What about a MW? - Yes, what ever works

Hope that gives you more to go on -

I really do appreciate the help!

Hi update fr. the owner of the kitchen

add this to my above response, hopefully that provides some good insight?

"In terms of design, I am open to all suggestions. However, at the end of the day, I am likely to stay in my rut and to try to create a vintage kitchen within the existing space, without moving walls and doors. I've learned a lot about this approach from Nancy Hiller (weblink below) and also by reading the book Bungalow Kitchens (Jane Powell). "

http://www.nrhillerdesign.com/
http://books.google.com/books?id=xg_XzghnjRYC&dq=bungalow+kitchens&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=LTrKSZLBJsXHtgeX8q2qAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result
- Show quoted text -

bump?
anyone

What does she think of the layouts so far? That may help us and others...

BTW...it sounds like she doesn't want to remove the short wall w/the pocket door...is that correct? She loses 9" of counter space and a lot of flexibility of layout if that's the case...

Buehl
Thanks for your responses - She is liking the plans - Looking into where to relocate the "grandmother" - I think that may be doable to the DR - I like your plans first one more, but I think a pantry would make sense since there is no other pantry

I'm running more "up the flagpole" - I think opening the Up stairs, removing the doors would be wise as well. I don't see where closing the refrig end casement would gain anything - other than claustrophobia - unless I'm missing something. The pocket door/wall can be removed

Keep the ideas coming - I know this is a little less than optimal with how the board normally runs but I'm doing my best to help her out & appreciate the help/time/insight

I appreciate that threads move a record pace here, hoping there is still some interest.

here's the owners response to many of the ?'s

am no floor plan guru.... What a great challenge - the end result will be such a transformation. Is she planning on any additional renovations/remodleing to the rest of the house, and if so, what and when? Yes I have a lot of projects in mind, mostly in the spirit of restoring as opposed to building additional rooms or making significant changes such as moving walls.Would she be open to consulting with an architect? Sure, if the price is right. Since being "historically sensitive" is important to her, the right architect could have some ideas regarding the whole layout of this floor.

Here are some additional questions in no particular order:

What is her budget? Not knowing her budget makes it hard to know what can and can't be attempted to change the space to better suit her needs. IÂve been told not to spend more than 10% the value of the house  so letÂs say $40-60,000 for the kitchen  but of course itÂs always nice to spend less.

What are her needs -how much does she use her kitchen? How many in her family? Currently the kitchen is underutilized, as I live in the house only part-time, but in the past it has served a family of 4. I like to cook and sometimes have dinner parties.

How long is she planning on staying in the house (does she have to worry about resale)? Probably not going to sell the house for a long time. Although resale is always a consideration, I would like to design a kitchen mostly that pleases me.

Are the stairs up and down the only stairs in the house (if she eliminates one, does she still have a way to get to that floor of the house)? Stairs that start near the base of the window and radiator go up to a second floor which is a converted attic space. Stairs across from the refrigerator go down to a basement.

What is on the other side of the door at the refrigerator end of the kitchen? A pleasant, mid-sized room with lots of windows that is currently used as an office, but has also been used as a family room and as a bedroom.

Could the dining room door be moved so that a longer run of counter/cabinets could be placed in the space (for example, if the dining room is along that whole wall of the kitchen, could she move the opening to opposite the stairs going downstairs)? Could be done, but the downside is that it alters the traffic flow and air circulation  it isolates the kitchen from the rest of the house.

Can the pocket door between the fridge and the cabinets next to the range be removed? Could be done, I appreciate the gain in space, but my general attitude is that there are increasing numbers of contemporary kitchens and decreasing numbers of vintage kitchens, so I would like to try to work with the space as it is, albeit awkward in some respects. The goal is to have a terrific little vintage kitchen.

Can the cabinet to the right of the "grandmother" be removed and the wall the "grandmother" is on extended to where the stairs go downstairs? Theoretically, yes.

Could the "grandmother" of the kitchen be relocated to another room, the dining room for example? Theoretically, yes.

Why doesn't she want to open the kitchen to the dining room (this might help in understanding what she is looking for in a kitchen space)? Could be done, but again, my general attitude is that there are increasing numbers of modern homes with spacious kitchens, with islands etc. and decreasing numbers of vintage kitchens, so I would like to try to work with the space as it is.

What is the layout of the rest of this floor of the house - not knowing the rest of the layout for that floor, it is hard to see what other possibilities there are. See attached. Not to scale, but it will give you a general idea. The house is tudor revival, built in 1925. The floorplan is typical of small house floorplans for that era  although itÂs not exactly a bungalow, the renovation issues are similar.

What is the "charm" about the house she is trying to preserve? For example, she could do this through era-appropriate light fixtures or hardware on the cabinets. Bungalow style, arts and crafts are a good starting point to describe the style and charm of the house. Most of the main floor is preserved i.e. still vintage.

Next

More questions....

Can the entire wall, not just pocket door, be removed (and the matching stub of a wall on the other end of the opening)? Could be done, but I am not convinced itÂs the right thing to do.

What appliances does she plan to have? Open to all suggestions but the current plans are below. It looks like a:
* 30" range - probably
* 30" range hood - probably
* standard depth (31-3/4"D+handles), 34"W refrigerator  most recent idea is an 80 inch tall refrigerator with a 24 x 24 inch base. Conserv makes these, also others.
* 24" DW - probably
* sink to fit a 33" SB  probably smaller  canÂt remember exactly. Maybe 24 wide??
* What about a MW? Â nice to have, willing to forfeit for lack of space.

Does your friend already have all of these appliances? Are they "set in stone"? HavenÂt purchased anything yet. So far, the major work that has been done is to strip paint from the woodwork, including the vintage hutch.

First, I highly recommend sizing for a 36"Wx72"H refrigerator, regardless of what she's getting. The "excess" can be filled w/filler that can be removed if needed later. Why? Because fewer & fewer refrigerators are being made today with smaller dimensions than those. 10 years down the line, when the refrigerator needs replacing, you want to be able to put one in w/o drastic cutting up of existing cabinets to make it fit (or having to search far and wide to find one to fit).

Second, I recommend a 36" wide range hood, not 30".

Is she willing to move the DR doorway? Theoretically, yes.

Does the sink have to be centered under the window? No.

Is the radiator still functional? Yes. Or, is it a left-over from when it was used to heat the room?

Pic of the exterior of the home

Floorplan of home

Many Thanks to any of you who are willing to take a stab at this

I totally agree with Beuhl with regards to making the refrigerator space flexible enough to take a larger refrigerator if necessary.

In a world of fairly standard dimensions, refrigerators are the exception, and you will not easily be able to make a refrigerator space larger in the future.

Thanks Palim

First, what I'm about to say is difficult to write about instead of talking about face-to-face. It may seem a trifle blunt (OK, maybe more than a trifle), but it's meant to help, not hinder or cause bad feelings. You can't see my body language to realize that I'm just trying to get everyone to really think about what they're doing and what the potential consequences are for certain decisions...especially when spending $40,000 to $60,000...definitely not a "budget" kitchen (especially for the small size of the kitchen!)

I guess I just so want everyone to end up with not just a nice looking kitchen (and "vintage" in this case)...but also a functional kitchen. Unless you've experienced it first-hand, you have no idea what a joy it is to go from a dysfunctional to well-panned out functional kitchen...I want everyone to experience what I have in the past 10 months or so...a real love for my kitchen and my absolute favorite room in our home! It has truly become the heart of our home!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

OK, here goes.....

Regarding the pocket door...b/c of its location, if she keeps it it will be difficult to make that area functional. If she truly wants increased functionality, then she will need to make a few compromises.

It should be noted that even if she removes the pocket door & its wall, the kitchen will by no means be made a "contemporary kitchen" or "spacious". It will remain the "terrific little vintage kitchen" she feels it is.

Vintage does NOT mean dysfunctional and I think if you went back in time to the 1920s & 1930s and talked to her parents then, they would probably look at you askance and ask...

* Why would you leave a door to a room that's obviously no longer needed and makes it difficult to create a functional kitchen?

* Why would you put up with a dysfunctional kitchen just b/c it was built that way (which, btw, did not include room for DWs, etc.)?

Are you sure that wall & pocket door are even original? Even if they are, it may have been solely b/c of the need to keep the ice box separate from the rest of the house b/c of the need to keep that room cold to slow down the melting of the ice...something that is no longer needed.

Remember that back when this house was built...

* People didn't buy & store food in the quantity & variety that we do today; have all the dishes/utensils/flatware/pots & pans/glasses, etc. that we have today; have the gadgets that we have today; etc....so they didn't need the pantry storage or dish storage that is obviously needed today. [They stored food in cellars & root cellars, had one plate/bowl/cup/fork/spoon/knife per person for everyday use, had only one or two cooking pots, maybe a couple of pans or trays to bake bread on, etc. If in town, they visited the markets more often, if in the country, they kept hens, cows, gardens, etc.]

* People were more practical and would probably just shake their heads at the idea of keeping something [pocket door & wall] that is obviously causing problems for a functional kitchen just because it was built like this or was always like this.

I'm not saying to open it up and make it an up-to-date kitchen with big windows, an open airy feeling, and all the latest gadgets & appliances...but I am saying to look at it objectively and with an eye toward making it functional while keeping the "feel" of a small, cozy, vintage kitchen (which I think is really what she wants).

I think the "feel" will be helped more by sticking to "vintage" choices...like wood species, finishes, & styles for cabinetry; "period" counters & flooring materials; "period" decor; and appliances with a "vintage" look.

However, in the end, it's her kitchen. If she insists on keeping the same basic footprint and all the walls & doors intact, she may end up w/the same problems she currently has...a refrigerator too far away from the eating areas & prep areas, not enough work or landing space around her range, very little prep space overall, an inefficient work flow, etc. It may "look" nicer b/c of expensive components, but it will be a "show" kitchen rather than a "working" kitchen. I know she only lives there part time and is alone, but reading b/w the lines, it sounds like that may not always be the case... (Plus, if she's thinking of resale as well...functionality may also be key to selling.)

100 years from now I suspect that the current "contemporary" or "modern" kitchen will also be outdated...I would hope the owners of our home aren't either so mired in the past or blindly nostalgic that they wouldn't be willing to remodel the kitchen for their needs. Sure, keep the late-20th/early 21st century feel, but NOT the dysfunctional-ism that may have evolved over time.

I hope this helps and I really hope I didn't offend her (or anyone else)! As I said in the beginning...I want everyone to share in my joy of having a truly functional kitchen that they love!

Ouch!!!! That should be:

"...to go from a dysfunctional to well-planned out functional kitchen..."

(and I thought I had read & re-read it enough!!)

Buehl
Thank you for your time and obvious passion about kitchens and designs. Even if I had not read your preface I would not have taken offense to your response. Well said & well taken. I share your passion for a "working" kitchen vs "show" kitchen and we have all seen those.

I totally agree with you - Personally I think the pocket door & the "grandmother" are a hinderance to a good design so I'll work on that. Other than those 2 things & perhaps opening the stairway I don't see any other glaring design impediments - but that is why I'm here. I know good design when I see it, but honestly I'm better at other things not the design.

I wonder if the pocket door can go where the Up stairs are now. I would imagine since it is attic space that it does need some type of door. Several things that have come up that I don't see, right now in any case, how that improves function/design
- moving DR opening
- not centering sink on the window
- closing the other kitchen casement opening to the rest of the 1st floor.

Thanks for your undying devotion!

Mostly math - buehl said everything there is to say.

The aisle is 39 inches from the front edge of the hutch to cabinet edge of the range wall.

If the ref moves to where the hutch is, it will still stick out into the aisle by 3 to 4 inches (even using one of the 2x2 refs). The range will also stick out into the aisle by 3 to 4 inches (they are around 30" deep including handles). If those two are on opposing walls, the space available in the aisle will be around 30" when both are not in use.

If the ref is in the area behind the pocket door, the exact specific ref chosen needs to be deeper than the walls so its doors can open into BOTH doorways - if an sxs, or into the office doorway for a single door ref for cleaning.

Below is a bit freaky. Involves entombing the pocket door - take the moldings off and store them and do a tiny wall-let where it opened. Also involves worlds smallest addition - believe this can be a simple bumpout without a foundation.

{{gwi:1730312}}

bmore -
Always willing to help! and thank you -

Interesting -

but... the space by the stairs has now become dead space? and kit is cut off from 1st floor?

This is hard.....

It belongs to office according to the 1st flr plan? What office doesn't need another closet with a staircase inside?

Jejvtr, thank you for understanding where I'm coming from. I have to admit I opened this thread with some trepidation!

I have to agree with you on moving the DR opening, not centering sink on the window, and closing the other kitchen casement opening to the rest of the 1st floor...I think all of those are fine the way they are. You'll find that when we start a design process we ask all sorts of questions just to find out what our options are...many are never used, but it gives us information "just in case".

I just had a thought regarding Bmorepanic's idea of closing off the attic stairs...what if instead of the pocket door the owner put in shallow cabinetry like Bmorepanic suggested but make that cabinet a "hidden door"...pull/swing out the cabinet itself, and you have access to the "hidden stairs" (or "secret passage"!) behind it. She could store seldom-used items in the cabinet itself and still have a bistro table & a chair or two.

jejvtr, tell your friend that house is just adorable!!!!
we have a 1926 house (plainer but similar). our kitchen remains separate from the dining room (no door, but a doorway separates them). i understand where she is coming from. some things that i can add (having redone our old kitchen) are:
1) that by living there only part time, she seems in a good position to do this kitchen in slow fashion which is best for a lower budget and an older kitchen (our DIY budget was around 10K. and our kitchen is actually larger than hers--includes the old porch they had). if possible, can she put a temp kitchen in place in the dining room, remove old grandma hutch to storage, and rip out the present kitchen to the studs? then she will know very quickly whether it's best to remove or keep walls, etc. that pocket wall could hide a beam or something, who knows.
2) i have learned that walls that seem illogical in 1920's houses have their own logic that is not visible at first (must remove plaster). Even though we wanted to change them at first, after looking inside, we have often chosen to leave things right where they are and NOT for historical reasons! ;-)
3) if she opens the room to other spaces, she loses her wall cabinet space, so i understand that.
4) at least she still has a radiator, our kitchen rad was removed by the POs and replaced with.....no heater at all.
good luck, it is challenging. kren

I am in agreement that function should trump preservation in some cases. The appearance and charm of that hutch could be recreated with fully functional cabinetry somewhere else in the kitchen.

Kitchen essentials haven't changed much in the last century with the exception of the dishwasher, so we tend to want to preserve more of the original even if it no longer works that well.

In contrast, most of us would not hesitate to totally revamp a bathroom with a 6 gallon flush toilet and no shower head. I guess it has to do with how much we are inconvenienced.

That said, it would be great if the design worked out without making the kitchen a dead end and/or kept the access to the office. Although the plan may work out better with less openings and traffic patterns.

bmore
Thanks! I really felt like duh, but realize I'm not "seeing" it all because it's not my space -
Now I'm wondering - if there are other options to your design - rather than increase office space, ? Tiny butlers pantry & "grandma" hutch could go in there - I guess the problem with that would be the necessity of a doorway ... just roaming thoughts

beuhl - I understand the need for those ?'s and have asked the same. When i see them again, I ponder, am I missing something - which in the floorplan/design phase I easily can -
those stairs are the "down" stairs to basement -but the ideas on both stairs/pckt door should continue to be entertained - Just depends where they lead us in the overall design give/take

kren - I will pass your kind words along. Your points are all well thought and taken -

palim-
I think if "grandma" hutch moves it will need to be relocated as the kitchen is really confined. The DR seems to be the most logical place.
So very true about the bath reno as well as the dead ending issue/s

I really do appreciate this - my first time with this type of relationship/reno - I suppose it does mean I'm TKO and love old homes - I met this woman 1x & here I am. Funny....

THANK YOU ALL!

Understood about the hutch being there or in another room.

What I didnt explain well was that new cabinetry in a more functional arrangement could be tricked out to look hutch-like and period appropriate for the house, referencing the look while improving the use.

I like buehl's thought about the hidden stairs. This has been very interesting thread.

I have to tell you, I first read jetvtr's comment as wanting to have tiny butlers in the kitchen :)

Me too!

I am not a layout guru, so take this for what it is worth... it was fun to try!

This is an attempt to satisfy her desire to keep as much as possible original. Starting with bmorepanic's suggestion to build the wall out for the fridge, flip the current sink and cooking walls. Leave the pocket door, and put in a pantry in the cold room. Leave the dish hutch (would be behind the sink and DW). I can't do a layout image unless someone can tell me how to import the image into a Mac and make changes to the plan using layers.

palim
understood now, thanks

bmore - too funny - yes, I would like tiny butlers running around, probably more efficient than I -
Interesting thread indeed! -

cot - I partially following, but being the visual person I am, I don't have the total pic

Thanks again!