I see two major problems: A tiny barrier island between sink and fridge, and a wall oven next to a doorway.

Many folks here over the past several years have remodeled their kitchen specifically to get rid of barrier islands like yours. They hate them, and they are always in the way. I know you are attached to the look of your pantry and fridge wall, but moving the fridge to one side or the other of that wall rather than in the center would help solve that problem.

Second, I have a wall oven in a doorway like yours. It is terrible. There is inadequate landing space. The oven door blocks the way. It pushes smells, smoke and noise into the next room (wall oven fans run like crazy). I've been in the middle of changing rack positions when someone who wants to come in the room just shuts the oven for their convenience, leaving me with two hands full of a hot pan that I then have to put down, go back and open the oven again.

I suggest putting both the oven and the fridge on the current fridge/pantry wall. This way you can access the fridge more easily, plus use the island as landing space for the oven.

Is your kitchen really big enough for an island? I don't see aisle width marked.

Thanks for you input, Marcolo. I absolutely agree with you about those issues.

The ovens bother me less than the island because that doorway is rarely used since it opens into a tight formal dining room. Nobody every takes that path to the kitchen. The direct path around the other end is always the one used. It's a straight shot from the front door down that hallway.

After 13 years here I can say that the island is the most used surface in the kitchen. Most of my prep is done there. I use it for serving when we have a crowd. It's the standard landing space for getting into the fridge. I'm open to other ideas, but those functions don't feel as good to me if I take it away.

I do agree that the fridge being behind the island is always an issue. The aisle between sink and island is currently 40 inches and the other side (with the current fridge placement) is only 30". Moving the fridge down and going to counter depth will bring that up to over 36 inches.

The biggest issue with this house is these many small, cramped rooms. Originally, I bought this spec house for a temporary home while we found land to build after we moved back to Austin. That plan obviously didn't work. Now I have some other issues that make it more convenient if we stay for a while longer, so I'm trying to make what I have more workable without major reconstruction or overspending the neighborhood.

This may be a kitchen where it makes sense to have a peninsula to the right of the DW instead of an island.

You could put the wall oven on the same elevation as the refrigerator.

Would you consider a somewhat smaller sink? That would allow room for the fridge to be next to the DW. If you are committed to a huge sink, you could move the DW to the other side of the sink to accomplish the same thing.

Putting the fridge on the sink wall and keeping all your perimeter counters in that L means that the wall where you currently have the fridge either could be empty or it could house shallow (12-15" deep) pantry cabs. You would then have room for a much larger island, even one with seating, if you'd like. This setup would eliminate the "barrier island" problem, too.

I'm going to echo what palimpsest said about the peninsula. If you put it to the right of the DW you could make it betweem 4'-5' long (depending on the aisle width you need/want) which would give you a total counter run of between 6'-7'. It would also depend on how wide that other side of the kitchen is and what is it used for. It would come out from that 34" bank of drawers that you have marked.
Depending on the space available in the area where the sliding glass doors are, you could do an overhang with some stools.

Seconding holligator's idea. I think this will give you the best kitchen in terms of workflow. Your aisles also look awfully narrow. Doing this would also allow you to widen them to the point where if anyone lands in a wheelchair again (hopefully not), it won't be an issue. Keep your pantry by recessing it into the studs.

Here is a link that might be useful: Cindyandmocha's kitchen with pantry recessed into studs (scroll down)

Thanks so much for new ideas to consider.

My gut reaction to the peninsula is "no," because I hate the boxed in feeling. That open area to the right in the layout is where my kitchen table is. Somehow the drawing scale seems a bit off. I went downstairs and walked around there to see how that would feel and I think the spacing is too close between a potential island and the chair at that end of the table. So that would effectively just move the congestion to another area.

The idea of moving the refrigerator is interesting however. I'll have to give that some thought. Presumeably that can't be too big a plumbing problem, since there's a sink and dishwasher over there already. Recessing the pantry would add a lot of room. I don't quite understand all the technical details of how that is done, but I'll look into it.

Other ideas? This is incredibly helpful.

Do you really need a wall oven? We just did a kitchen remodel where my tradeoff was wall oven vs. pantry. I opted for pantry since I rarely use two ovens. I ended up keeping the pantry (changed from a closet to a cabinet) and upgrading the range to a dual fuel Jenn air double oven/range (small oven on top)... one of the best decisions I made. Also went with the sharp drawer microwave... LOVE it!

I think the penisula would work better in this situation.

The pathway to the dining room is rarely used? Is there another way into the DR? Do you actually need it? Closing that doorway would open up alot of possibilities in your layout.

Gotta do the CD fridge. My new counter depth fridge (Kitchen-aid French Door, 72" high) is actually slightly larger than my old fridge and has WAY more usable space.

You appear to have a plan that, with a few tweaks, is what you're used to and what you've learned to work with. However, you know you have some issues (e.g., aisle widths & a barrier island).

A few questions and comments on your layout:

• While changing the refrigerator to a CD will add a few inches, it may not be as many as you think. Most CD refrigerators are around 30" deep (counting handles) [mine is 31"].

Are you measuring aisle width cabinet-to-cabinet or counter edge-to-counter edge? Cabinets (without the doors) are 24" deep. Once you add doors, they're approx 25" deep. Then add the counters, and the true depth of your run is 25.5". (Counters usually extend out past the cabinet + door/drawer by about 1/2" to protect the cabinet, the doors & drawer fronts, and the interior of the cabinets & drawers from spills...both liquid and solid.)

This means that if you're measuring the aisles cabinet-to-cabinet, then your aisles are, in reality, up to 3" narrower than you think. E.g., 1.5" more on the sink run + 1.5" more on the island means the aisle b/w the sink and island is 3" less than you think.

If you're already measuring counter-to-counter, then your aisles are probably what you think they are (or at least very close).
To add to the others, I echo the comments about the barrier island.
I also agree on the wall oven...however, if you really never use that doorway, then maybe it isn't much of an issue. So...

Why don't you use it? Is it b/c you have another door into the DR? Is it b/c you never use the DR b/c it's too small (and only one door)? Other reason?
How much time do you spend at the sink vs at the island? Of the time spent at the sink, how much of it is food prep work and how much is actual, dedicated cleanup (i.e., not prepping, just cleaning up)?

Are you interested in changing your layout if we can come up with a new one for you? Or, do you really just want to stay with what you have and not try to fix the issues?

We understand that you've learned to live with its shortcomings, but don't you want to make it better? If you're going to be spending all this $$$ on replacing cabinets, etc., doesn't it make sense to at least see if you can get a better layout? One that address more of your issues? I'm not saying to take down walls or move windows (unless you're willing to), but even working within your current footprint I think we can help you do better.

If you are willing to look at alternatives, then I suggest you draw up your kitchen and table space and post it here. Let us take a shot at making it better for you. Right now, we're kind of shooting in the dark b/c we don't have real dimensions to know what will and what won't work. Check out the "Read Me" thread for more info on layout help.

BTW...is the wheelchair going to be something you have to plan for in the future? Or was it a one-time thing?

Good luck!

Here is a link that might be useful: Read Me If...

buehl,

I'm totally open to new ideas. In fact, I posted here because I'm a bit disappointed in the limited options I've been offered by the design/build firm I've contracted with. I have the impression now that most of their work must be rip out and replace the cheap builder's cabinets, but really not change the layout much. Perhaps that's what the clients expect. I know it's more time and work to contemplate changes, but for this type of money, I'd like to explore all the options. I think they would have changed nothing if I hadn't made suggestions of my own, which were compelled because of appliance changes. I know I'm not a KD (although I am an artist, so understand some basic concepts), so I shouldn't be the primary designer here, but that's what I feel like at the moment.

I never expected to stay in this house, and there are many things I hate about it, chiefly the cramped size of the rooms (but it was huge compared to what we had before). Realistically, I'm not moving for several years at least, so I must make what changes I can. Since this is not the last kitchen, I don't want to go totally crazy. I'd rather not move walls, so it's a matter of what can I do with what I've got?

So here's the barebones layout that I spent all morning constructing (another thing I thought I'd get from the KD, but didn't).

Answers to specific questions:

• We know the CD fridge won't buy us a lot, but it's far better than the new monstrosities available, and the interior space is comparable to what we have in a SS now (and we have a freezer in the garage).

• I measured the aisles counter to counter, but the caveat is that we have no overhang on the current formica countertops.

• We only use the DR when we want to seat a large group. It's so tiny that the path around the furniture there is very tight (and there's not much there!). It would be a big detour to go around that direction into the kitchen, with obstacles, so we always go down the hallway that leads straight from the front door to the breakfast area (also narrow!:-[).

• The island is used for primary prep. Secondary area is between the cooktop and sink. Cleanup is always on either side of the sink.

I hope to never do the wheelchair thing again, but I had a bad, bad break to one leg (+ a fractured wrist and head crack) that required no weight bearing for three months. My next house will have shower facilities downstairs! But that's another story.

Thanks for all the input. I really thought I'd get more from the people I hired. Perhaps I made a mistake with them. The four kitchens I viewed looked very nice and they came highly recommended by people I know. Even so, I'm thinking perhaps I'm a very nontypical customer.

Forgot to answer a few questions:

• It would be a long hike around to the DR if the door was not there, as you can see from the diagram.

• I've been pining for double ovens since I came, since I had two before and know that I would use both. I don't want a range, because I'm almost 6' tall. I already toyed with the idea of raising the base cab height, but I know I will sell at some point.

No, if you're here and asking for real input (not just validation of what you have), you're definitely not a typical customer! The vast majority of us on this Forum have probably been labeled by our contractors & designers as "high maintenance" at best and "difficult/nightmare customer" at worst. I suspect the latter is closer!

Don't feel badly about it...it's your kitchen & you'll have to live with it long after the designers & contractors are gone. Plus, you're paying them...not the other way around!

Wall ovens...I understand about the ovens, I love mine and if I have any control, I will never go back to a range (I'm 5'10", but my children & DH are all taller than me...and we all much prefer the higher installation of wall ovens...and the fact that we have two ovens rather than one.)

Window...I love our counter-height window. It's one of the best things we did! We also had the issue that our KD's company wouldn't change our window, so we hired someone else to do it. We raised our bay from 22" off the floor to 36" off the floor and ran our counter into the bay. A bump out is definitely a plus with windows b/c it reduces splashing on the window and gives you more room behind your sink for the faucet, soap dispense, etc. as well as more room in general. (Sometimes dirty dishes overflow into the bay...when I don't have any decorations in it.) We did have an issue with the window installation in that it was approx 1/2" too high (I won't even begin to guess who made the mistake), so we put a trim piece in front of it to hide the "mistake" and painted it to match the rest of the trim in the house (white). [Check out MamaDadaPaige's and ErikaNH's bump outs in the thread below. My kitchen is also in the thread.]

I'll try to find some time this weekend to look at the layout some more. I'm just finishing up at work (10pm on a Friday night!!) and have a full weekend...but I may be able to fit it in.

Oh, quick question...I know you don't want to go "wild" since you're only going to be in the house for a few more years, but would you be willing to eliminate the Utility & Broom closets and move the DR door?

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread: counter height window pictures please

Actually, the space I labeled as utility?? is an unknown to me. The measurements don't add up, so I'm thinking its a hidden space with pipes, etc. going up to the next level. I really don't know what's there, so I can't know that moving it is an option. Otherwise, it would be a great idea.

Thanks for the link on windows! I must admit that my window over the sink is my favorite thing about the kitchen. I just wish it were taller. That's me again -- 5'11". I called a window guy today to come out next week and see what I can do there.

It really is fantastic the way this forum helps by offering different views and ideas about design options and ways to use the available space. Then you can better figure out what is most important to you to meet your own needs and situation.

Just a couple of comments to add to the mix on the island versus peninsula question. My space for kitchen, eating area and family room is very similar to yours, except that my dining room entrance is where you show your double ovens. When we moved in, the kitchen had a peninsula, not an island, between the eating area and kitchen work area.

The peninsula was our main prep area. It was nice to spread out along the peninsula and face directly into the eating area and family room where others were gathered. But we did have some issues with it.
- One problem was "traffic constriction" between the kitchen and the eating area. There were six of us, plus assorted friends, and someone always wanted to stand in the aisle space at the end of the peninsula! Talking about barriers, it is only when you constantly find yourself actually having to ask people to move out of the way to get through that you realize how many times that route is used.
- Also, the corner angle where the 2 counters met (window wall and peninsula)really wasn't usable for food prep. But, that same corner between the kitchen and the eating area is a natural collection spot for notes, left objects, the phone, etc, that is accessible from either side of the peninsula;)
- Unfortunately, our DW was to the right of the sink, so opening it meant no opening of peninsula cupboards or working there. If you do ultimately decide to go with a peninsula, getting at things and using the space near the corners of the "U" will be an important consideration.

On your island plan as shown, moving the island to the right more away from the stove would help to open up your flow between the sink and fridge areas. I agree that you might want to think about putting your wall ovens beside the fridge. Especially if you have an island, as then you will have the island available and any space beside the fridge is less needed.

You are very wise to be thinking about accessiblity at this stage. Especially in a smaller space, ease of use, traffic flow and adequate aisle space might really define your choices. Well, have fun and best of luck on this journey!

Northsong, you write in past tense, leading me to believe you got rid of the peninsula. Is that the case? How did you change the kitchen? Does it function better?

When I said I didn't like the "boxed in feeling," your description is exactly what I meant. Narrowing down the entrance to a room as busy as the kitchen sounds impractical. Right now, even with the island, it allows a lot of movement for multiple people.

Hi,

Yes, we did get rid of the peninsula after much, much deliberation. Instead we put in an island, longer than yours is, ending equivalent to where the counter to the right of your dishwasher shows. I have no regrets. Traffic is much less of an issue, because now there are "alternate routes" for getting about. I like that all sides of the island can be used and by more than one person, whereas working from the eating area side of the peninsula wasn't practical.

Before I had to take everything out of the dishwasher and close it before I could put anything away, and no one could work at the peninsula while that was going on. Now, I just stand to the right of the DW, open the adjacent bottom drawers to the right and the cupboards above, and put everything away without moving from the spot -- luxury!

In the island itself, all facing the window wall, I have a pullout double trash with a single drawer over it across from the sink/DW area, and in the middle 3 wide drawers, and on the left 3 narrower drawers.

We also put in a counterdepth FD fridge to eke out every last inch on aisle space.

I understand the arguments and concerns about islands, and agree that should be taken into consideration. All in all though, perhaps because of the relatively small size of the kitchen, I am not finding the island to be a hindrance. I enjoy the convenience of having it so "central" as a work area and handy to all of my appliances.

Good points!! I do just what you describe at the DW - stand there and put all the plates and utensils away without moving. I would hate to lose that. A peninsula there would certainly mean the DW would have to move.

You describe a much longer island, good for prep space, because we too use both sides. Further around to the fridge though. As I wander around in there lately, I try to walk further out, as if the island extended more, just to see how much of an inconvenience it would be. I think if we move the fridge to the center and extend the island about a foot, it would actually still be more convenient than on the near end where it is now.

I hadn't considered putting the trash pullout in the island. That might be a very good option, since we're really doing most of the prep there. I wind up pulling the can we have now out from under the sink and placing it beside the island.

Thanks for your point of view. Since there seems to be major concern over the island, it's especially nice to have a defense of the current layout.

Would you be willing to at least modify the DR doorway? Make it a bit wider and shift it to the left? In your layout, it looks like it's been modified...

Here are two layout ideas. Both retain the island but remove the "barrier" it causes. You still have rather narrow aisles, but if the DR doorway is never used, it may not be an issue. Both of these layouts have a 38" aisle b/w the sink and island and a 36" aisle b/w the island and "bottom" wall.

The island is 27" deep...24" deep cabinets + 1.5" overhang on all sides (1.5" + 24" + 1.5" = 27").

In both, I moved the refrigerator to the left wall. This eliminated the "barrier" and placed the refrigerator so it's easily accessible from the sink, the cooktop, the island, and "outsiders" looking for a snack. However, to eliminate the need for significant filler b/w it and the wall, I shortened the wall so it's no deeper than the refrigerator carcass/box. This will allow you to open the doors fully. If the wall remains 50" deep, you will need approx 12" b/w it and the wall. Yes, you could take the 12" cabinet from the right of the cooktop and move it the other side of the refrigerator, but that would significantly reduce your Prep Zone and Cooking Zone shared workspace.

I moved the ovens to the bottom wall along with two pantries and 24" of landing space. In this location, the island makes a good Baking Center (working on the oven side of the island).

The 12" pantry is "first" for two reasons...(1) to give you pantry space for your most commonly used items close to the Prep & Cooking Zones w/o the island being a barrier and (2) to have a bit of "safety buffer" b/w the ovens and the doorway when "turning the corner" (which shouldn't be often since the DR doorway is not used).

The 12" cabinet to the right of the cooktop is an ideal place for cutting boards...it's in the primary Prep Zone (b/w the sink and cooktop) as well as very close to the island and the secondary Prep Zone. For trays, cooling racks, etc., I suggest storage over the ovens. We have ours there and it's perfect! (I'll post a pic of it in another post.)

The trash & recycle pullout (2 bins) is in the island on the end closest to the cooktop. This puts it in close proximity to the Cooking Zone and cooktop as well as in the two Prep Zones and Cleanup Zone.

To the right of the DW, I put a Dish Hutch...with the upper cabinet to the counter to maximize dish storage. It puts the dishes within easy reach of the DW as well as the "breakfast" area and, to some degree, the FR.

The only plumbing that may have to be moved is for the refrigerator if you have an icemaker or water dispenser. This shouldn't be too much of an issue since no waste pipe/drain and drain vent are required.

I also included a zone map for Layout #1. The same basic map applies to Layout #2 as well, so I did not do one for that second layout.

Here they are. Note that I made some changes b/w them. Most of the...

And because I don't think you have enough to think about or choose from :-D

Three peninsula layouts.

Layout #3: What I don't like about this is that the peninsula isn't convenient for prepping b/c it's too far from the Cooking Zone and cooktop. I think this type of layout works better when either the Prep Zone or Cooking Zone is in the base of the "U".

..

Layout #4: Sink in the peninsula and deeper peninsula to give you more room behind the sink. The primary Prep Zone is in the big expanse of counter looking out the window. Do you have a nice view? 70% of the work/time spent in the kitchen is spent prepping. If you have a nice view this may be attractive to you.

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Layout #5: Corner sink, also with the primary Prep Zone facing the window.

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Layout #3 with Zones:

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Layout #5 with zones (the zones in layouts 4 & 5 are essentially the same so I did not do a zone map for both)

Here's my tray storage over my double ovens:

Notice the placement of the shelf. Since you can retrieve the cooling racks, cookie sheets, etc. by grasping the bottom corner, you don't need to be able to reach the top of the trays. This means the shelf the trays are sitting on can be a little higher. Because of this, you can create a storage area under the trays to store long platters, griddle, etc....and still be able to reach everything!

OMG! buehl, I can't believe what you've done!!!!

I was hoping for a single alternative and here you've given me five. And posted in the middle of the night, no less. Please tell me you didn't loose sleep on the weekend over my kitchen. That's so beyond friendly. I can never thank you enough.

Is kitchen design what you do professionally? I can't believe you knocked those out "in your sleep" almost literally. This is what I expected from my chosen firm, but didn't get. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

Now I have lots to ponder.

I do think moving the doorway could be an option. When I did the measurements myself it sunk in how much bare wall would show down at that end beside the ovens/fridge.

That dining room door is off center to begin with (new build, too) to accommodate that corner pantry. Everything there looks a little wonky, with no centers really matching up -- dining table, chandelier, doorway -- the eye (mine, at least) notices. I'll look at that and see if it might not actually fix some things.

Yes, my window looks out on the back garden and, as a birdwatcher, I like to stand there and work and see all the activity.

I already planned tray storage over the ovens, but didn't think about the shelf. Yes, us tall folks can totally do that! Great idea.

OK, I'm off to really peruse the drawings in detail.

OK, I submitted the idea of swapping the fridge and ovens around to the KD. He's supposed to draw up that possibility so we can see how it looks, and give us some insight into the pros/cons of the work required.

I also requested several other modifications:
-trash pullout in the island
-a taller fridge opening, with a shelf for cookbooks now, that can easily accommodate a change in the future (if Miele made a 36" french door, I'd buy it in a heartbeat, but I don't want an even bigger SZ).
-robot vacuum garages in the island toekick

Thanks for all the input. It makes me feel much better about the entire design process to have real options to consider. I'm certain that the peninsula does not appeal to me for multiple reasons, but at least I looked at that option. I'm not convinced that I really want to swap the fridge and the ovens, but I'm looking at it in depth and whatever I decide it will be an informed decision and not an ignorant one.

Thank you to all who made suggestions, especially buehl for the five incredible plans.