Water Softener Advice Needed!

11 years ago

While building a new house in rural SW Colorado IÃ¢ÂÂve done my best to follow the good advice on this forum - IÃ¢ÂÂve obtained a well water test from an independent lab and received equipment recommendations from a local, independent, water treatment pro.

Now IÃ¢ÂÂd like to run the results by the experts on this forum.

Water flows from the well at 2.5 gal/min. into an 1800 gallon cistern. Total coliform and E. coli tests were negative.

The house has 4 bedrooms 3.5 baths - normally occupied by only two adults, but we expect frequent visits from family and other guests - as many as four additional adults at a time. Plumbing into house is one inch; no water-hog appliances, only single head showers.

Lab analysis results (most measurements are mg/L, ND = not detected):

General Chemistry:
Alkalinity, Bicarbonate 800
Alkalinity, Carbonate 20.0
Alkalinity, Hydroxide ND
Alkalinity, Total 820
Chloride 22.0
Conductivity 1510
Flouride 1.04
Nitrate/Nitrite as N ND
pH 8.21
Sulfate 75
TDS 935

Dissolved Metals by ICP:

Calcium 13.7
Hardness 120
Iron 0.093
Magnesium 8.66
Potassium 1.13
Sodium 380

Dissolved Metals by ICPMS:

Antimony 0.0019
Arsenic 0.0016
Barium 0.394
Beryllium ND
Cadmium ND
Chromium ND
Copper 0.0055
lead 0.0009
Nickel 0.0027
Selenium 0.0039
Thallium ND
Mercury 0.0002

The local water treatment guy (who comes highly recommended) proposed the following:

Softener - WS Series Fleck 7000SXT metered softener, model number WS-2000MN-7M from Puregen, with WQA gold seal 8% resin. Puregen lists the following specs for this model:

App. Capacity @6 lbs. per cu. Ft. - 40,000
Mineral Tank Size - 12 x 52
Brine Tank Size - 18 x 30
Rec. Service Flow - 2.3-15 GPM
Est. Peak Flow - 18 GPM
Cu. Ft. resin - 2

RO system (also from Puregen) - ERO-5100ERP1000, listed at 5 stages, supplying 100 GPD, with a steel, 60 liter, NSF storage tank, that will service four locations via homerun, ÃÂ½ inch tubing: kitchen sink plus icemaker, MBA, kitchenette, laundry/dog room.

Hope IÃ¢ÂÂve provided the information needed for any advice, suggestions, cautions, etc.

Thanks in advance for any help!

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Comments (6)

H2OME
11 years ago
Hi Solarvision,

From looking at your water report, you have good water. Pretty good indeed. The only exception might be an ever-so-slightly elevated fluoride level. (Maximum Contaminate Level) is 2.0 and the (Public Health Level) is 1.0.

You should know however that I am not an independent contact. I am a regional manager for a manufacturer called LifeSource Water, inc. out of Pasadena, CA.

www.lifesourcewater.com

PLEASE NOTE: We do not like salt or potassium based water softeners for both the effects on humans and on the environment. We reduce fluoride by about 35% and the fact is, we can do a superior job on protecting appliances, and you'll never have to add chemicals or worry about polluting your down-stream sewer or septic systems.

If you'd like, my email address is david @ lifesourcewater.com.

If you contact me, I will send you spec sheets for what we can help you with.

David McMurray
760 805-4455

PS: Reverse Osmosis wastes a ton of water and it turns it acidic. I can explain as to why this is a bad thing. Please reconsider both salt water softeners as well as RO. I promise to be short, sweet and informative.
User
11 years ago
Keyboarding for dollars... at least David is open about wanting to make a buck off someone else's web site.

Pity David doesn't have the ethics to observe the TOS on this forum.
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Hi Bill, International Filter has been around quite a while. They assemble and sell softeners to independent water treatment dealers. They offer industry standard, quality components. I prefer the "SE" (simple electronics) 5600SE over the non-electronic. It's easier to fine tune the softener. Controlling softeners is something that intergrated circuits are well suited for and they have proven very reliable. Both the Clack WS1 and Fleck 5600SE only come in the "Noryl" material which is state of the art and very reliable. I'd have a PRV (pressure reducing valve) installed at the house service pressure between 60-70lbs. Higher than that and you may have some problems. While a 48k softener might be correctly sized for 4 people if you have 8-10 people then it'll be regenerating WAY TOO OFTEN. To calculate the correct softener size for your house and family it would help to know the water conditions Since you're dealing with a local dealer you should be getting a parts AND labor warranty. A labor warranty of only one year doesn't show much faith in the product by the seller. This (second) dealer seems to be giving you some "iffy" advice, but seems to be cheaper than the dealer in your first post. Seems like they charge less because they know less. It doesn't matter how large the brine (salt) tank is. It's best to keep only enough salt in the tank to cover the water. That cuts down on salt "bridging" and gets you in the habit of checking the salt and softener once a week.
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Water softeners are sized based on the water conditions, # of people, # of bathrooms, and other variables. Based on what you posted you should be looking at around a 3.5 cu ft softener and with it setup to operate at an efficient salt dose will regenerate every 7 days. You might get by with a 2.5 cu ft softener but it will not operate as efficiently (will use more salt) and have a lower SFR. As for installation... if the water service is accessible in the basement and there is a drain and an electrical outlet you're basically looking at local plumber rates and materials. Plumbers can install softeners, and some install them backwards, so an install by a water treatment pro is preferred. Before you make any decisions may I suggest... Hit the Yellow Pages and call at least three local water treatment pros. Make sure you call at least one of the big dogs like Kinetico or Culligan for comparison and at least a couple independent pros. Give each an opportunity to offer suggestions and provide you with a quote to meet your water treatment needs. IGNORE ANY THAT DON'T TEST YOUR WATER THEMSELVES as they can't speak intelligently to water treatment without knowing what needs to be treated. Ask lots of questions. Softening the entire house or just the water heater (IMO a bad idea)? Warranty, parts & labor or just parts, how long and on exactly what? Install, permits required, licensed plumber? Routine maintenance and costs? Do they stock parts? Response time for emergency (water leak) calls? If they don't explain things to your satisfaction that is a good indicator of how you'll be treated after the sale. Are all your treatment needs being addressed? Ask your neighbors if they have any water treatment experience. They might tell you who's good or who to avoid. Come back here and post the specific recommendations and hardware components with the costs and we'll give you our opinions.
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If you have sediment, absolutely install a sediment filter upstream from the water softener. Although your softener will act as a sediment filter if it must, it will damage the resin. A sediment filter can either be a backwashing media filter (looks similar to a softener), or a cartridge filter. Both work very well. A backwashing filter will cost much more to install, but can mostly be ignored once it is operational. Filter cartridges are cheaper to install, but filters should be changed every six months or as needed. If you choose filter cartridges, look for "Big Blue." Go with the 4" diameter, not the 2". You didn't mention any other water parameters. Since you are on well water, it is important to have a comprehensive water test to include: TDS, pH, hardness, alkalinity, sulfides, iron, manganeses, bacteria, any others recommended by your local lab As to softener size, if hardness is your only issue you should be looking in the 1.5 - 2.0 cuft size range. However, if you have iron and/or manganese in your water they will greatly affect proper softener size. If the home has been there for years without a softener and you don't see signs of iron (rusty stains) or manganese (black stains that aren't bacterial), then they likely won't affect softener size, but even tiny amounts will affect resin life, so best to be certain. Since you are not happy with your Kinetico rep (for good reason), either Culligan or the independent will be fine. My preference would be the independent dealer over Culligan solely because Fleck parts are readily available from multiple sources whereas Culligan parts are only available from Culligan. You want to ensure your new softener meets some basic standards: High quality American or German made resin. This will provide a tight size distribution for optimal flow within the resin, longer resin life, and more reliable, predicable water softening. Since you have WELL WATER: 8% crosslinked resin. Top basket. This serves two purposes. It sets up a proper water distribution during normal operation and prevents resin loss during backwash. Gravel underbed. The gravel underbed is there to set up proper flow patterns, improve backwash, keep the bottom basket in place, prevent basket failure, and prevent channeling. Many softener sales companies like to leave this out or sell softeners with a vortex system instead. Vortex systems weigh less than gravel so they cost less to ship. In addition, they are a more expensive item that adds profit for the softener salesperson, but provides no additional benefit to the homeowner . It simply adds another piece of equipment that can break. Fleck or Clack valves. These set the industry standard. Be aware that you will not be able to purchase Clack valves online. This is not a problem if you purchase locally. The valve should regen based on water usage, not time. Noryl bypass. Most softeners are available with either Noryl...
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Solarvision
Original Author
11 years ago
I'm getting close to having to make a decision on my water softener equipment. Would sure appreciate some advice - am I OK with the recommended equipment?

Alice, Lurker... anyone?
User
11 years ago
I was on vacation with no access to phone or internet (wonderful, by the way).

The proposed softener is large, even if sized for 6 people. It may be that they were trying to size purely for the number of bathrooms, assuming all four would be in use at the same time, but this softener will cause you to use a lot of extra salt. Additionally, with only two people normally in residence, an oversized softener will be more prone to channeling.

How many fixtures you reasonably expect to be using concurrently?

Base purely on your water analysis, you could use a 0.75 cubic ft softener. That would, however, be a bit small for the size of your house. A 1 cubic ft softener would be adequate. If your guests are there frequently, 1.25 cubic ft would be better. I wouldn't go larger than that.

Your water has a bit or iron. While it is not likely to be a problem, it does mean that you shouldn't go longer than a week between regens and that you should us 8 lb salt per cubic ft of resin during regens. For comparison:

1. 1.0 cuft -- 5 gpm flow (9 peak) 34 lb salt per month.
2. 1.25 cuft -- 6.5 gpm flow (9.8 peak) 42 lb salt per month
3. 2.0 cuft -- 10 gpm flow (15 peak) 68 lb salt per month
Solarvision
Original Author
11 years ago
Thanks Alice. Really appreciate your taking time to give me advice.

I can understand the dilemma of sizing a softener to meet the needs of only two full-time occupants, while still having the capacity of dealing with up to four guests.

Truth is, the frequency of guests in our new home is only a guess at this point. Most of the time it will just be me, my wife, and our Australian shepherd. Peak water usage for us would be a shower, load of dishes and a load of clothes which, of course, could be easily lowered with a little crew coordination.

I'll check with my installer to see what the thinking was behind the size of the softener he recommended and post back what I find out.
Solarvision
Original Author
11 years ago
So I checked with my installer. He confirmed that the 2 cu. ft. size he recommended was based on the number of bathrooms in the house.

I told him I was more comfortable going with a 1.5 cu. ft. unit based on the reasons given by Alice in his post (above).

Would welcome other thoughts/comments...

Water Softener Advice Needed!

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H2OME

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