Toilet Flange chipped-what to do

16 years ago

Our house is 3 years old.

When we first moved in, we smelled a sewer smell from the guest bath toilet.The toilet would rock back and forth.

I contacted the builder and he sent the plumber out. After about two hours, the plumber stated he replaced the wax seal with a thicker one but due to a defect in the toilet,(he claimed the bottom of the toilet was not level) it would never sit level. He did state he rigged it to not move but he did not know how long it would last.

We only use this toilet maybe 12 times a year. In the last week we began to smell the sewer smell again. I walked over to the toilet and on the left side the bolt was loose and would just spin around.

My husband and I bought a new wax seal and unbolted the toilet. The photo below is what we found. When I removed the old wax seal, on the left side, the area is chipped out. The bolt just spins. With this section chipped, there is nothing to hold it in. There was a piece of foreign plastic wedged to try to hold the screw in place. That is what we think the plumber meant by rigged.

We removed the bolts and set the toilet in place. It sat level so the problem was not with the toilet but the fact the toilet could not be bolted tight on the left side.

Also, we noticed he used a wax ring without the rubber flange attached. We were going to replace it with a wax ring with a rubber flange. Do we need the rubber flange on the wax ring?

What can be done at this point?

Thanks in advance.

{{!gwi}}

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Comments (11)

ctbosox
16 years ago
I'm not a plumber, it appears the flange is screwed in, which you could then pull out, but not if its glued in, there are replacement parts for flanges, half moons and whole ones which fit over current ones. sorry I'm not more helpful, but there are parts out there you could use to fix yourself, good luck
brickeyee
16 years ago
The chip is not important.
The flange height relative to the floor is probably the problem.
The toilet MUST rest on the floor, NOT the flange.
Flanges are set flush or very slightly proud of the floor.
The underside of the toilet is recessed to accommodate the wax seal that makes the final plumbing connection to the flange.
Once a toilet rocks the seal is almost invariably destroyed.

The flange appears to be set below the surface of the floor.
While a seal can sometimes be made, the distance from the top of the flange to the seal surface of the toilet becomes critical.
If the wax ring is not thick enough the seal is not made or quickly fails.
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If the flange is secure, you actually can leave the flange "as is" with the layers right under the flange ring. I write that because if you damage the flange it can create a whole new can of worms if the flange or flange-to-pipe connection was damaged and had to be repaired/replaced. However, I'd cut the plywood back closer to the flange, I'd cut back at least to the same size as the first layer that's on top of the plywood in the photo. You might find that the closer to the flange you cut, you can then dig out the layers under the flange. If you get there, then you can simply install new layers of your flooring sandwich around the flange. The new layers don't have to go under the flange, the new layers can encircle the flange. However, if yo have, say, a 3/4" gap between the top of the subfloor and the bottom of the flange, then just cut some small wood blocks (say four blocks, 1" square and 3/4" high for example or sized as needed) that will fit snugly between the flange and the subfloor, and set the blocks around the flange at the 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock positions. Keep the blocks clear of the flange bolt locations. The flange itself should be securely attached to the waste pipe beneath. Use a putty knife or equivalent to scrape away the residual wax. Toilets are pretty easy to install, but if this is your first time I do have a recommendation. Use a waxless adapter. Something like the Fernco. Size the waxless adapter to the size of your waste pipe. The thing is that wax rings are "one and done" things. If you set the wax ring, then set the toilet, but then you have to pull the toilet up again to reset it, technically you would want to scrap away the deformed ring and install a new ring, even though the ring you just installed is only 10 seconds old. Once a wax ring is deformed you can't really count on it to give you a good seal the second time the toilet is set. With the Fernco, you set it on the base of the toilet. Then you can set the toilet, pull it, reset, pull, reset, etc. It's good forever, so to speak. You can set a toilet that is fully assembled. Again if you think the weight might be a problem, you can remove the tank from the bowl. then just position and set the bowl. Then reinstall the tank on the bowl. Then shim the base, snug the bolts, and there you go. And as always, do NOT overtighten any of the bolts that go through the china. Snug them up but don't crank down so hard that you overtighten them. You don't want to crack the china. If the base wobbles on your new floor, don't try to make it wobble-free by cinching down hard on the flange bolts. Use toilet shims between the tile and the toilet base. Then snug up the flange bolts. Buy a new set of flange bolts too. Good luck and happy toileting!
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There is a flange made that fits into the pipe in the floor and has a rubber seal. The flange then screws to the floor. However, I don't think you should rely on the flange making the toilet solid. The stool has to be in good contact with the floor if it is to be solid. Long ago I also saw a kit that was esentially a frame that went over the floor and the toilet mounted to it. Of course you still have to find a way of making the frame level/solid. If you only added the wood to your subfloor to have something to screw to I would suggest you remove the wood you put in and use a flange as I described in the first part of my long response. If the areas are rotted where the toilet bolts down, I have run long bolts and put nuts and washers on from underneath in the cellar. Weird, but works. In old apts. we used to put down 3/4" plywood....rounter the edges and fill with wood putty so they were smooth and then sand and paint. We cut a hole in the middle, mounted a flange and mounted the toilet. This is not beautiful, but is functional. And remember, these were inexpensive apts. and didn't require anything beautiful.
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If you should go that route: While they are trying to minimize their own losses, I would keep photos of its exact location and get a lifetime warranty in writing - for materials and labor, from all involved - for future repairs or replacement. If they don't want to do that, you have your answer for their true assessment of the situation. Remember, too, that the contractors who are doing the work might not still be in business further down the road.
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catbuilder, What did I say? I said I don't want to drive him off the edge; he's already close to going out of his mind from the kitchen remodel that is also happening right now. But I also say I won't go for a hackjob. Decision time is 1-2 weeks away it looks like. oneandonlybobjones, We have a plumber we already use for stuff like this, and I'm thinking he'd probably quote $300 for this job, which DH thinks is money not worth spending (and of course, I disagree). My wifely instincts are telling me that if I wait a few weeks DH may be willing to revisit the issue, otherwise he and I are gonna be at a stuck point because unless there is a proper solution that doesn't look like a hackjob I'm not gonna go for it. Closest thing so far is the toilet riser but it's plastic, which is a no-go in my book. I'd go for it if it was same material as toilet and less than $300. I'm really shocked though that it appears that there aren't already toilets manufactured with high bases. I have contacted 2 toilet manufacturers so far and got no response! Wow!
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lsst
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks ctbosox and brickeyee!

The flange is set below the surface of the tile. The flange was screwed in before the tile was placed.With the initial install, the plumber installed a too thin wax ring in both upstairs toilets and we had the sewer smell almost immediately. He then replaced the wax rings with what appears to be two rings instead of the one.

Even though the flange is screwed to the sub floor, would the flange be glued to the sewer pipe? It is between floors so I do not have access to it from below.

How would I go about raising the flange to tile floor level?

I am so glad to hear there are parts to fix it if I can not remove it to start over.
lsst
Original Author
16 years ago
Due to the chip, the toilet can not even be secured on the left side.
Thanks!
lsst
Original Author
16 years ago
I did a google search and came up with a toilet flange repair ring.
Also, I came up with toilet flange extenders.

Could I attach the metal toilet flange repair ring to the existing flange(to repair the chipped part) and then add the extenders to bring it flush to the tiled floor?

If so, can these be purchased at the big box stores or do I need to go to a plumbing supply place?
lsst
Original Author
16 years ago
We went to the big box stores and found Oatey extenders in 1/4 and 1/2 sizes.

Our flange is PlumBest and the screw holes do not line up.

I plan on calling my local plumbing supply places to see if anyone carries PlumBest brand.

The 1/4 is a little lower than the tile floor and the 1/2 is slightly above the tile floor. Would the 1/2 inch extender work best as it is slightly above the tile?

I really appreciate all the help you guys contribute to this forum!
bus_driver
16 years ago
Buy the Oatey extender. Buy 4 #14 stainless steel flat head tapping screws in the longest length you can find, probably 2 1/2" long. Use #12 screws if #14 unavailable. Orient the Oatey ring so that it will hold the closet bolts in proper position. Choose the 4 holes in the Oatey ring that will be used for the #14 screws. Using the Oatey ring as a template, drill clearance holes for the screws through the flange below. Install the commode. If there is any problem understanding these directions or if directions with greater detail is needed, then this is not a do-it-yourself job and a plumber is needed.
diveguy1
16 years ago
1sst,

This is EASY to solve:

Use a waxless Fernco wax free toilet seal. It handles the problem of the flange being below the floor level without any spacers and no wax ring too boot. You'll want the FTS-3 since it looks like a 3" drain.

Here's a quick link - http://www.fernco.com/FTS.asp

To fix the chip in the existing flange I'd use epoxy. With a quick hardening type this could be completed and buttoned up in under an hour.

Bob
homebound
16 years ago
I would use a stainless steel washer on the bolt. Hold the bolt in place temporarily with the plastic washer that comes with the toilet bolts, or use a piece of cardboard with a slit cut into it and push it on the bolt. Then use a "jumbo" wax ring, or alternatively, one of those Oatey spacers as mentioned (1/2" would work for you) + a thick wax ring.
lsst
Original Author
16 years ago
Thanks everyone!
I ordered a Plumbest 1/2 inch extender from my local plumbing supply. It should be here by Friday.
lsst
Original Author
16 years ago
Update,
I ordered a Plumbest 1/2 flange extender and it arrived Friday.

I purchased a new toilet to install. ( Just in case something was wrong with the original)

The tile floor turned out to be not level. I now know with the flange cracked and too low and the floor not level, there was no way for the wax and toilet to stay secure. All of this could have been repaired during the building of the house-UGH

I installed the extender with #12 ss screws and caulked eveything and allowed the caulk to cure.

I shimmed the toilet and have it secured in place and so far so good. I will install the tank tomorrow.

I would not have known what to do without your replies to my post .
Thanks again!

Toilet Flange chipped-what to do

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Toilet Flange chipped-what to do

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