First, overall I like it. I vote warming drawer at the top or at second drawer.

Things to think about, tho....

If you entertain, you want to make sure the wine-ref, glasses, ice, bottles and a sink are accessible to guests and out of your way. Maybe there's a bar somewhere else?

The ref and the breakfast area - altho its suggested the ref be close to the breakfast area, this is a little too close with the ref doors and seating interfering with each other. Sorta the other thing about the ref location is if you look towards the breakfast area, it cuts off your view of some of it. If you are seated in the breakfast area on the end, it cuts off most of the kitchen. It would drive me nutz. Actually, I'm a little confused about whether the breakfast area has any windows.

Maybe put the micro closer to the ref. They kinda have a relationship built on snacking and reheating.

I'm thinking the art desk would work out better if the desk had a different orientation, so you guys could converse?

The art desk and island seating - you don't QUITE have enough space for a simple seating aisle when the area behind the seated person contains stuff you'd like to access and its even a little narrow for clear walking behind a seated person. Most software counts distance between cabinets and not countertops, so the 42" aisle becomes 39" in real life (plus or minus protruding handles). In this situation, with a seat in the art area also using the aisle, it should be around 60 inches minimum.

I strongly recommend both dishwashers in the same general place. For me, it would be very difficult to keep sorted out what goes where when loading the dishwashers.

The cleanup area is buried deep in the kitchen. That means you have to truck dishes further and its a bit more difficult when entertaining. Having multiple people do clean up is also a bit more difficult - dishwashers now have taller doors and take up more aisle space when open.

I think I'm asking questions like - do you need two informal seating areas, which way do you want to face, how will you be able to interact with kiddo, what happens when kiddo has friends over, how does the kitchen get used when you entertain?

Cause I like this kitchen, but I don't know that it will GREAT for you or just somewhat better than you had. I'd love to see some more of the first floor to get better oriented.

Seems very nice.

I wouldn't want the dw's separated...Been there, done that, and I won't be doing it again. In my new kitchen they flank the cleanup sink and work much better.

No, do not move the warming drawer to the bottom...I can't imagine what a pain that would be to use.

I would put spices in the upper to the left of the rangetop...But that's where I keep mine, so it's a natural answer from me.

How many drawers you need for pots and pans depends on how many you have and what sizes. I have a 48" rangetop, and configured my drawers under and around it differently, so I have two 36" drawers under that hold pots and pans, and the lids are in a drawer to the side. My woks and things like waffle irons, etc. are in the drawers to the side, too.

Actually, I might want to swap the microwave to the other side of the rangetop. That way it's just as convenient for you, but others can get to it to do tasks or make themselves something without getting in the cooking/baking work area.

I measured my pots and think one 48" drawer below the range top will hold the pots and pans and I could put the 2 woks and pasta strainer in the deep drawer under under the DO. Am thinking I could put the many baking pans I have in the bottom 48" drawer under the range top.

I'm attaching the entire floor plan of the house so you can see the flow. I will have a large windowed hutch in the dining room which will hold wine glasses.

I understand Buehl's point about the location of the double sink, I just can't figure out where else to put the large sink. I can get a bigger island sink (not as large as the window sink) and use it for when we clear dishes from the banquette table as there will be a garbage disposal and garbage bin on the island nearby. Thoughts?

I know people are saying to "pair" the DWs but won't I ultimately end up using one for daily use and then the 2nd for the larger parties? I don't see myself using both on a daily basis. Rhome410's observation about flanking the clean up sink makes sense but my thinking was that the island DW would be closer to the banquette and likely be used more on a daily basis as my dishes will be in the upper on the left of the range top. If I move the MW as everyone suggests the the left, the dishes would be on the right upper.

I'm not sure what Buehl means by the view of the breakfast area (the banquette). Do you mean the view when looking at the banquette from sink/island area, or the view when sitting in the banquette looking out at everything.

I'm interested in the answers to some of the questions you've posed (and, perhaps, borrowing some of your layout ideas!)!

Can you describe more what you're doing with the pantry space? Are you doing pullouts or a small step-in? What does that do about your choices for the corner to the right of it?

If you keep your dishes by the rangetop and mainly use the island dishwasher, that becomes your main cleanup area...and your zones are all combined. You lose the zone separation that a kitchen this size and with this wonderful layout can offer you. I'm not sure what you'll use the big sink and its area for if not for everyday dishes?

If you have enough dishes that you need to fill the extra dishwasher, you want to be able to reach both at once to fill each most efficiently. If one sits without being used, it gets smelly, and if you make the mistake of leaving a few dishes in it and forgetting, they get fuzzy. (I hate to admit why I know that) It's just better, in my experience, to try to use them both equally, and to keep them out of your work area.

Ahhhh, Bianco Antico....make sure you are there to place your template so the parts you like are featured, and if there are any parts you don't really care for, get cut out!

Good luck!

I really like the space and the height from the vaulted ceiling. Based on the layout, though, I think I would end up using the island sink, dishwasher, and trash 90% of the time and would rarely use the large sink, dishwasher, and trash on the east wall.

This might sound crazy, but I almost wonder whether it would make sense to swap the range/cooking area with the cleanup area? That way your main sink, dish storage, refrigerator, and trash would be near each other and close to the breakfast, dining, and living areas. You could still have a prep sink on the island near the range.

I had the same thought as Mereanne about swapping the cleanup and stove areas (not crazy!). It might require some other changes, because any one change seems to beget a chain of them, but I didn't know if the windows are set in stone or can be changed/moved?

yes, the f ridge where it is will block eyesight from work areas to the table and back.

I think I'd want the f ridge on the other side - toward the corner. and swap the sink and r ange. the pantry and art cabs on the outer side of the f ridge. I'd put double doors on the pantry and art cab so they don't open so wide into the aisle.

you could move the sink more in toward the corner (on the now r ange wall) and the f ridge also. I wouldn put the f ridge up against the bench.

how about a low level counter at the end of the island for the art table?

Tx for all the follow up. Here are some answers.

Let me clarify current layout: The wall with the rangetop and fridge has no windows b/c it would look out onto an ugly house. The double sink looks out to the rear of the back yard and the desk side has a large southern view of the pool. To the right of the desk on the other side of the storage is a sliding french door to the patio.

If I swap the rangetop and sink, I wouldn't have any windows on the new rangetop side (facing the rear) unless I lose my upper cabinets. I will explore this with my architect. If I enlarge the island sink (recommendation on size?), I could use that for clean up and use the double sink for pots/pans. Thoughts?

Doubledoors on pantry and art cabs is a good idea.

Will explore swapping the fridge with the pantry however I didn't want the SS of the DO and SS of the Fridge to be next to each other and wanted to keep the DO away from the banquette. I could put the fridge where the art storage is but then lose the art storage, which will also have a book shelf on the exposed side (western side).

Good suggestion about using the DWs fairly equally to avoid smells. Will be sure to keep that in mind.

I think the pantry will have pullouts so I can get more items stored. To the right of the pantry is an appliance garage, which may not be clear in the floor plan/elevations.

Tx all for thoughts...

Hi,

Altho I appreciate the compliment of being mistaken for Buehl, I am not she.

Ok, let's try the dishwasher again.

Where you are placing the dishes and the dishwasher assumes that only one person will ever be involved in daily cooking and the same person sets the table and does the cleanup.

So, in everyday use, you're planning on sacrificing your cooking zone to clean up duties? If you have table setting help, you're encouraging them to walk through your cooking zone because they have to to get to the dishes? And everyone who wants a drink of water has to enter the cooking zone to get a glass and fill it at the prep sink?

Adding to the interest, pans for handwashing need to travel over to the clean up sink to be washed as will every other dish where somebody who doesn't want to empty the prep dishwasher because its full of cleans just sticks their dirties in the dishwasher by the clean up sink. Which of course, eventually becomes clean, but is full of stuff that can't be put away while you are cooking.

From the dining area, dishes need to travel around 33 feet in each direction, possibly to and from the two dishwasher locations, in little piles that you can carry.

So for me, I'd combine the kitchen, breakfast and dining room into god's own open, airy, unpretentious and comfortably furnished dining room (not saying anything whatsoever about the proposed plan) and maybe use two tables that can be combined. I might do a little bit of division between the dining and living areas because I like the drama of revealing a decorated table. I'd probably implement the separation as something like an open bar-buffet between the two areas - maybe working towards having a small under-counter ice-ref and a bar sink there.

First part of the kitchen would be the cleanup area with consolidated dish storage on one end. Both dishwashers would be here. If you heat plates for service - as opposed to keeping food warm, the warming oven would be in this area.

Next would be food stores - both dry and cold with the micro. Next would be prep area with sink and art table, next would be a "Y" path to cooking or baking. I would try to dead end visitors at the prep area - so cooking and baking do not become hang-out zones.

That tall end wall has the promise of being a terrific focal point cooking wall.

Sight lines: In the architect's proposed arrange, the person sitting beside the ref can not see through the ref. It is taller and broader. They will not be able to see the rangetop and I think not the prep sink because of several sheets of steel. The person at the range probably won't have x-ray vision and be able to see the person seated beside the ref because of those same sheets of steel.

I think you could make the East wall really dramatic and beautiful with the range flanked by large windows on either side instead of upper cabinets. Doing so would bring tons of light into the kitchen and make it feel incredibly open. The cleanup and pantry areas could then be on either the north or south walls. I would keep the dishwashers and trash in the cleanup area. That way, you'll have those functions consolidated in one space and I think that will give you cleaner lines too, rather than breaking up your base cabinet and/or drawer runs with dw and trash in two different areas.

I would probably recommend against putting a large cleanup sink in the island just because the island is a focal point... and you wouldn't want it to be a focal point for a bunch of dirty dishes. Prep sink would be fine, though.

Check out Elizpiz's photos of her range wall with vaulted ceiling and windows to the left and right.

Here is a link that might be useful: Elizpiz Kitchen on FKB

one thought i immediately had was placing art desk next to banquette, moving the blocking fridge out of the original area somewhere over where the desk was. This would keep the seating area more open....

Wow...thx for all the thoughts. I am definitely taking the conversation about swapping location of clean up sink and range top to my architect, as well as the fridge blocking the banquette. I will keep you posted.

is the house to the N (of the plan as shown)a 2 story house? if not you could have windows on either side of the range. frost the lower half of them. you'd still get lots of light in.

the range there still bothers me tho...has more to do with the sink/dw/fridge tho than the range being there.

I'm back with two new options.

Option A puts the double sink on the south side of the kitchen facing the larger side of the pool The 48" rangetop is now flanked by two windows with a beautiful Modern-Aire 54' hood. The north wall now has a "wall" of tall kitchen items - fridge, pantry and double oven.

Option B keeps the double sink on the East wall facing a window flanked by upper cabinets and the rangetop on the north wall.

Thoughts?

It looks like you scrapped the art desk in both new options?

I like option 1. You can include a nice bar/coffee area to the right of the sink. It's a little skimpy compared to what you had before for dish storage near the DWs, but it's better than creating a barrier island by having the pantry/DOs on the wrong side as in 2.

Think about if you need the corner uppers to wrap around to the range wall. As you show it, they are rammed right up against the window trim and that might look awkward. Letting them end against the range wall and not turn the corner might look a little cleaner. Nuccia's gorgeous kitchen is a good example of what I mean (click link).

Here is a link that might be useful: Nuccia's Kitchen

Well, Tracie.erin and I pretty much saw all the same things!

No art desk?

In option 2 the oven location doesn't make much sense. The workspaces and relationships just seem to work better in Option 1. I, too, would just run the cabinets from the sides to the range wall without wrapping around. Can the window over the main sink be adjusted so that you have room for a decent upper between the window (plus trim and a little space) and the east wall?

Can you move the dws and sink a foot to the west so that you have room for a lazy susan corner cabinet? That would still leave you 4 ft for dish storage, plus uppers, which would be great. I'd put the trash across the aisle in the island so that you can reach it while loading the dishwashers. If you put it in the end cabinet closest to the stove, you can also reach it from the stove area. That's how I have mine and it works great.

Do you need 36" for the microwave? I use mine for thawing and other tasks while I'm cooking and baking, so I'd want to swap it with the pantry.

We got rid of the art desk. Lot of thought around this but figured that I would be trying to force fit my daughter to sit there rather than hang out on the island where she will probably end up. This let me have more freedom to move things around a bit.

Yes, there would be a lazy susan corner cabinet. There will be a trash on the north side of the island as well as one next to the double sink. The south side of the island (opposite the double sink) would have drawers flanked by a wine fridge). So that puts the DWs and trash flanking the double sink.

I don't really need 36" width for the MW but could use the width above for platter storage. The location is good next to the banquette. I will have a "cover" over the MW so that it looks better. I won't mind opening/closing it. Plus I want the counter space next to the banquette so I don't block sight line.

Really appreciate your help here. Big change from my first plans presented a few weeks ago.

I really like Option A with the range hood on the vaulted wall and a beautiful modernaire hood. I confess that I am very biased, however, because our kitchen has a similar size, shape, and layout and also has a vaulted ceiling. We have a 40" range with a 51" modernaire ps26 hood.

I agree with tracie.erin and rhome on the corner uppers. Better to have them die into the wall rather than turn the corner.

If you install windows on the range wall, it would be great if they are large and allow lots of light. Willow Decor has a blog posting about kitchens with windows in the place of upper cabinets that is fantastic and shows how strikingly beautiful large windows can be in a kitchen. We have windows flanking our range on the vaulted wall, but they are original to our quirky house and are extremely small. If I had to do the project over, I would probably enlarge them.

I like the wall of cabinets that you have included in Option A. One thing you might want to consider is installing the microwave under the counter in the island so that you have an immediate landing area for dishes that you heat up. Katieob and Mamadadapaige did this in their kitchens and not only does the microwave look great but it is totally practical. We copied their approach in our kitchen and are thrilled.

Here are a few photos of our range wall. I haven't posted any pics yet on GW because we just had twins 3 weeks ago and our project just finished last week! The photos are kindof dark, still working on fixing that.

Disregard the yucky stools in these photos- DH and I have yet to agree on stools so we are using these temporarily!

That must be why I like that option, also, as it's close to my layout. I don't have the same hood or windows around the range (BEAUtiful kitchen, Mereanne), but I can vouch for the layout's function. :-)

Thanks for this great advice. Mereanne, your kitchen is beautiful! I will have the same hood (30" high) and am trying to figure out how to do the top. it is the PS26 and flat on top. I got a great deal otherwise, I would have preferred the PS29 that arcs into the wall.

All of your help is definitely helping me but I am still in need of your invaluable advice. Below are top down views of the two scenarios we've been describing. They are NOT to scale.

Option A:
I prefer this layout, with the range top flanked by windows because, as you all described earlier, the work zones lay out better and the cabinets storing dishes are closer to the eating areas. The windows flanking the stove would be 30" and, unlike in the picture below, I would now have the cabinets die into the East wall rather than corner around. The double work sink faces south into the larger part of the yard.

However, a # of people said that the north wall becomes too "dense" with the fridge/pantry/DO all next to each other. However, there is still plenty of counter space on each side of these units. Please see picture below.

It has now been suggested that I replace the DO with a 48" full range, thus creating more space on the north wall and perhaps add some open upper cabinets. I am open to this however, I already own the Wolf DO but may be open to selling it if the consensus is really strong to go with the range top. My DH had wanted a full range and I convinced him that since I'm approaching those mid-century twilight years (!), I don't want to be bending so we went and got a great deal on a used Wolf DO! Is the north wall ok with fridge/pantry/DO or should I switch to a range top?

I am grateful for all your help...

If it were mine....I love my wall ovens as opposed to range ovens so close to the floor, and I also love the drawers this arrangement allows under the cooktop for pots and pans. I also happen to think a 'wall of tall' is kind of cool, so I'd stick with what you want, and the way it is. The joy of how it functions as you use it will outweigh the change in the look. I am mostly blind to 'look' as I'm working and thoroughly enjoy the wonderful function of my kitchen. And it's not like your new kitchen won't look gorgeous with the wall ovens!

I agree with rhome- I'd choose the wall of tall.

My only suggestion/comment is to widen the aisle between the island and the cleanup area. It's going to be hard maneuvering around the dishwashers if the aisles are very narrow.

I'm back with what I hope is the final layout. Everyone has been soooo helpful here that I thought you all may want to see where I've ended up. To save costs, the wall cabinets are now going to be paint grade white, and the island will be a dark espresso rift white oak. Same beautiful Bianco Antico Granite.

I invite any thoughts before we go to build. One last thing I was considering was to put the trash pullout under the island 20" sink and adding one more bank of drawers but they would be rather skinny at 16". Thoughts?

The island will measure out at 44" with the countertop. The aisles will actually end up being 40" on the north and south sides with the 1" counter overhang.

North Wall

East Wall:

South Wall:

Please see my last post. Would love some wise thoughts!

I think I love it! :-) I would pull the uppers on either side of your sink window back a bit so they're not crowded right up to it. I think it'd look nice if there was about as much space between cabinet and window there as there is between the big windows and the cabinet fronts on each side. I hope that makes sense. You have so much room and it will give you a more spacious feel if the cabinets don't make that window into a tunnel.

You weren't planning seating at the island, right?

rhome410 -

I like the idea of pulling the windows back a bit. Nice idea. I will pass it along to my architect.

Below is the sketch of the island. There will be one seat at the end and two seats on the island.

I don't think I'd want seating in a 42" aisle and backed up to the dishwasher and cleanup area...? Will it be used often, so that people are in your work area?

I wonder if there isn't a way to
(1) Move the warming drawers towards the range
(2) Move the wine cooler to the cleanup side
(3) Extend the or move the island a bit towards the seating end

So that the stools were mostly beyond the dishwashers - maybe the appliances and trash alternate taking full depth and short depth.

Hmm, is that English?

The warming drawer is actually at the end of the island closest to the rangetop.

The wine cooler was on the other side of the island but we had to make the island more narrow to accomodate for the aisle space.

Placement of island tbd.

The placement of stools on the island do back up to the dishwashers but I expect my daughter/husband to be using the stools mostly as I cook and we will eat at the banquette. There really is no other place for the stools.

Sher
Lucky you!

I've read through most of the posts - honestly got a little lost along the way.
One thought - Since your range will be on exterior wall have you considered just venting straight out w/sleeker cabinet depth hood (see Rhome's) rather than up & out which will diminish the efficiency of the hood?

Also, I agree re: windows & cabs for that matter to not butt right up against each other - keep everything slightly restrained w/space btwn - creates for more architecturally appealing design.

Many friends whom have went the route of 2 DW's in their remodels - actually regret doing so. One is Never used - which means giving up precious space, additional costs, running plumbing - If there were a designated butlers pantry I would think that would be most useful. I cook a lot! & DW is run everyday - Typically most pots are hand washed - So, I would ultimately opt for great run of counter around the main sink for handwashed items. That's where they will land.

Not sure where you ended up w/refrig & banquette seating - but that appears to be a potential bottleneck -

Also trash pull out - I think the most efficient designs have trash, sink, DW - because that is the order for prep/clean up - just a thought

I know how exciting it is to get to "production" but would caution once you are in production and have 2nd thoughts about function it is very costly to change. Take time, and a deep breath before signing off on plans - Don't let your excitement or others false deadlines get in the way of your getting your floor plan to meet your needs for a long time to come.

best to you

Jetvtr, thanks for the advice. We entertain a lot and have always found we could use two DWs. This will be quite a large kitchen for me b/c of the space and already feel that I have ample storage.

The fridge and banquette are quite open. In my original post, there was no site line visibility when seated on the north wall of the banquette but with help from GW, I now opened this up as shown.

The windows will have more space. It was just a hand drawing.

As for the hood, I've been able to get a killer, killer deal on the ModernAire #26 hood and am quite happy with it. 1400 CFM should be enough power.

tx again.

I can't wait to see this one come to be. There are certain kitchens I know I'd just love to have, and looking at the drawings and plans, I think this one!! It seems like it will have a wonderful feel to it with the layout and the windows/views...and the banquette area in addition just adds more appeal.