You misunderstand. There's NO ADVERTISING OF ANY KIND allowed on these forums.

This is very clearly posted at the bottom of the page.

It's more than that though.
You seem interested in protecting your investment but do you work the female dogs over and over, pumping out litters to keep that cash rolling in? Selling without regard to who buys the puppies and their intentions and willingess to care for the dogs properly?
How about doing health testing on the breeding dogs?

Do you breed to improve the breed or maintain breed standard or do you breed because it pays the bills?

Keeping your puppy mill clean is just the tip of the iceberg.

OH my, I am so sorry. I ony meant to help clear up a misconception. I thought this was a site where one could get information as to what to look for in a careful breeder. The name of my business never appeared on this site, nor my prices. And my dogs don't 'pump' out babies. They don't breed until their 3rd season and then only have three litters in their lifetime. Nobody with small children gets one of my puppies either. And if someone pays over a thousand for a dog they are likely to take care of it. I am amazed at this attack. I thought this was a friendly place. If my dogs were not up to standard I would be paying off the money back guarantee often, wouldn't I? This income supplements my social security. These dogs are my 'children'. The sweetness and peace I found here has been negated by this harshness. I wish I had never come here.

The Sunny One - I remembered your first post here a while back and the support you received at that time. I understand why you feel "attacked" with this response. It is hard to "read" the post with the actual "tone of voice" that it was really written with. I, too, have been taken back by some of the responsders at times. After a while you get to know how to handle them better.

One suggestion, maybe if you had responded under the original post that yours was related to, it would have been seen less as an advertisment and more as a part of the discussion.

I also think that RESPONDERS shouldn't assume anything other than what is written. Maybe then newcomers wouldn't be as offended when something harsh is said.

Please do know that there are many helpful and friendly people here and don't leave based on this one experience.
After all, remember your first time back with us was much more positive.

SunnyOne,

I agree with mboston. I didn't see your first post but I feel this one does not constitute advertising. Just information sharing. You don't mention your company name so why meghane got so annoyed is not apparent to me.

If you like this forum, come on back. Many friendly, good people here.

Hi sunny one, sorry you had such a negative experience. I too have been amazed by the comments I read here. As mboston said, it's hard to "read" a post with the tone of voice in which it was written.

I remind myself that it's easy for people who love animals and see so many terrible things done to them to automatically assume the worst about a post or the poster. Something of the same happened to me when I was out-of-town and took our little dog to a vet because he was having trouble walking. The vet told me the symptoms were the same as if he had been kicked in the spine or thrown downstairs, and clearly didn't believe me when I said that hadn't happened...boy was he embarrassed when he took an X-ray and found that the problem was constipation and he had to cure it with two (not one) enemas! Just trying to say that if a vet can misjudge someone, it's no surprise that folks on these forums do.

mboston, thanks for reminding us all that there are helpful and friendly people here.

The Sunny One, congratulations! You sound like a very concerned and caring breeder, the kind that I searched out when searching for our 3 boys! I ended up driving hours for our fellas and found that the breeder was just as careful as you are. She cares deeply about her babies and even a year later we still speak often. As she says, we are now joined!

I didn't think you were a spammer, apparently meghane did but I don'r see why she got that impression.

I also don't think my reply was rude or antagonistic. I thought your post was discussing why people don't like puppy mills. It wasn't very clear what it was about.

Back to the original topic (I think it was previewing puppies?)

When my puppy was born, the breeder held two puppy viewing days. She was very, very careful. She asked anyone who had been around dogs to be sure to wash their hands thoroughly. Of course, no other dogs could come. She also asked us not to attend if we had been around non immunized dogs or sick dogs. When we got there, she asked us to use Purell on our hands. She had a large blanket on the floor (underneath was a tarp) and we all sat forming a perimeter so the puppies (nine of them) couldn't get off the blanket. (She also had a roll of tissue paper and was constantly cleaning up after puppy accidents). The only people who were invited were folks who had put down a puppy deposit.
It was a lot of fun for us. Gave us a chance to play with the pups and get acquainted with each other. Pup will be six next month and the breeder is hosting a puppy birthday party at a nearby dog park. She does this every year so we see our pup's siblings and mom.

" my operation"
"there are times of socialization for the litter"
"my business"
"This income supplements"
"They don't breed until their 3rd season and then only have three litters in their lifetime"

The warning signs are there. Meghann is right, this is a puppy mill. A reputable breeder does not make money. It costs far more to keep the parents in good health, to show the parents to prove their value in both conformation and performance, to provide all the necessary health care for the puppies, etc. Not a single reputable breeder that I know makes money.

"My dogs, my operation, my business"??? How many dogs? How many different breeds, how many litters per year? A reputable breeder has one breed, rarely two, breeds only those animals that have proven to be outstanding specimens of that breed, knows the breed and its problems (and makes buyers aware of the breed's potential problems), breeds only one, possibly two litters per year, often even fewer. "Three litters in a lifetime?" Many reputable breeders only breed one litter from an outstanding female as that is sufficient to put her (proven) outstanding characteristics into the breed population.

"There are times of socialization" What does that mean? The puppy is played with once a week? Socialization involves much more than members of the family playing with the puppy occasionally. Puppies should be exposed to a variety of people (obviously keeping cleanliness in mind) of all ages, and should hear, see, smell, taste, touch, and experience as much as possible to prepare them for living with a family. Perhaps you do this, but it certainly is not clear in your posting.

Perhaps this is a legitimate "responsible" breeder, but if so it is not apparent from the wording of the posts and the reluctance to answer the very good questions raised by Quirky at the beginning. This is not meant to be "an attack" (although it probably will be perceived as such), but is meant to point out reasons red flags were (and still are) raised by the OP's comments.

Sunnyone's been her forever. Did I meet you in Oklahoma? You have Yorkies right? One breed, healthy, pet quality puppies.

Three litters in a lifetime is nothing like a puppymill that breeds every 6 months when they come into heat.

If you want a purebred puppy not from a petstore where are you supposed to go?

I'm an adult dog pound person myself but some people want puppies and that is their right.

If you want a purebred puppy not from a petstore where are you supposed to go?

You go to a reputable breeder (and I am not saying that sunny is not, simply that this post does not indicate that). Reputable breeders can be found by contacting breed groups. Reputable breeders can be found by going to dog shows, finding dogs you like, and speaking to the people there. Reputable breeders can be found by speaking to trusted veterinarians, groomers, and trainers.

Three litters in a lifetime is fine if they are litters that were bred for a reason other than "it's a female, she can have puppies". Reputable breeders choose their breeding stock carefully - both male and female, often sending the female to a male at a different location, not just the male they happen to have around. As Quirky indicated, breedings should take place for the improvement of the breed.

That is why showing is actually important - to identify the dogs that are the best representative of their breed. Even if the buyer wants a "pet" dog, and does not care to show it, breeding stock should be evaluated. In many breeds, such as sporting breeds or herding breeds, performance is an important issue as well, so the ideal breeding stock will have participated in events that evaluate its performance as a hunting or herding dog.

Quirky also mentioned health testing. Reputable breeders will have all breeding stock tested for pertinent health issues - hip dysplasia in large breeds, eyes in many breeds, elbows in many breeds, etc.

Are you asking me if you met me in Oklahoma or Sunny? Because you did not meet me and I do not have Yorkies. But I was not sure who you were asking.

The reason I responded to this post, although I seldom contribute to the forum, was not to attack sunnyone, but to question some of the comments made and to add my $0.02 regarding reputable breeders.

I will second everything that prairie_love has said. My father and his wife are breeders, and everything he/she has said is spot on.

prairie love: reputable breeders do make money. Only most of the ones I know use the money to show their dogs. And the amount would never support anyone but it might supplement. I love it when people say they don't mean to attack and then do just that. Oh and your red flags are simply semantics. Your making judgements with very little real information, just words. That's just my .02.

I don't know a single reputable breeder that makes money. They LOSE money, or at best, break even, once you add in the cost of genetics testing, vet bills, transporting dams or sires across the country, taking care of the puppies for the first few months of life, etc. Anyone in this to make money is a puppy mill breeder, plain and simple.

My stepmother may be able to charge $1500 - $1800 a puppy, but her breed generally only has a few puppies per litter, and she usually keeps one or two herself. Once you add in all the above costs, she makes no money.

I'm so sorry!

I didn't realize that this was suppose to be a continuing discussion about what to look for in a breeder. It didn't sound like that to me last night. It sounded like "well MY place isn't a puppy mill so come check this out." Which sounded like an ad to me.

Again, I'm very sorry.

Not your fault, Meghane (and I apologize for the previous misspelling of your name). In the OP's second post s/he says

"I thought this was a site where one could get information as to what to look for in a careful breeder."

I took that to mean that is the topic under discussion. Perhaps not.

bluesbarby - like rivkadr, I know of no breeders that make money. Yes, some of the money may go back into show entry fees, but as I said previously, that is part of being a responsible breeder. It's overhead. And sorry, but I do not consider it semantics when one refers to their "children" as a business or operation.

prairie_love, thanks for all the good points. And for laying the info out so clearly.

FWIW, none of the reputable breeders I've dealt with make money -- they either lose it or just break even.

Well, it seems every pet board I run across, the same debate is raging!
My view, show breeders expect pet puppy buyers to subsidize their showing hobby. Testing is usually done once, except for eyes, so how can you justify the price in every puppy, every litter? Seems to me the cost of testing would be paid off in one litter, probably one puppy at the price some people charge.
And I don't believe show breeders are necessarily bettering their breed, either. Look at GSD's, over angulated, wobbly dogs that look like cripples. Capt. Max would horsewhip some breeders if he could see what they have done.
How about English Bulldogs? They have gone from an athletic bull baiting breed to one that can't get out of its own way. Breathing trouble and for gosh sakes, they can't even reproduce naturally anymore! Way to "better the breed" show people.

My view, show breeders expect pet puppy buyers to subsidize their showing hobby.

If you don't want to pay the price, then don't buy a purebred. The fees that you're paying for a puppy are for vet bills, genetic testing, and the general care for the first few months of care of that puppy's life. Most breeders also transport studs across the country -- have YOU ever shipped a dog across the country? It is NOT cheap.

Testing is usually done once, except for eyes, so how can you justify the price in every puppy, every litter?

Testing must be done on every dam and sire. You don't breed the same dam and sire with every litter. In fact, with a good breeder, you might only end up breeding a female once or twice in her lifetime.

As for your points about overbreeding -- GOOD breeders breed to the betterment of their breed, and try to AVOID the things that you have mentioned.

So you agree, all breeders of show GSD's and English Bulldogs are not good breeders?

And if I want a purebred dog, I have to pay your price, a price that subsidizes your showing hobby? And anyone else that breeds nice healthy purebreds but does not show is a backyard breeder? Even if they do testing?

So you agree, all breeders of show GSD's and English Bulldogs are not good breeders?

Of course not ALL breeders of show dogs of any breed are good breeders. I know many show breeders that are not good breeders. There are always bad apples in any bunch.

And if I want a purebred dog, I have to pay your price, a price that subsidizes your showing hobby?

I have NO idea what you are talking about. Showing is one of the ways that you can tell if a dog is meeting the ideal of its breed -- that's often one of the whole points of getting a purebred, no? You want dogs that are bred from champions -- you can't have champions unless they are shown.

And anyone else that breeds nice healthy purebreds but does not show is a backyard breeder? Even if they do testing?

They may be nice, healthy purebreds, but they won't be champions. And that is important to a lot of people. It's one of the ways that you can tell that a breeder is at the top of what they are doing. YOU may not like it, but it's the reality of the situation.

The average person can not look at a purebred dog and tell if it is well-formed and meeting the ideal of its breed (at best, they can say "That's a Labrador Retriever, that's a Malamute, that's a Pug") -- I've seen many, many "backyard breeders" that are turning out healthy "purebred" dogs. It doesn't necessarily mean that they're coming anywhere close to the ideal of the breed, and in some cases, they are coming so far from the ideal of the breed, that they look like another dog breed altogether.

I guess I'm not making my point clear.
I'm saying that ALL show breeders of GSD's and English Bulldogs are BAD breeders, just look at what they have done to the breeds. They have changed the standards to fit their extreme desires and they are NOT bettering the breeds. Champions are not everything, look at the increasing scope of genetic diseases, despite testing out the wahoo. The life span of some of these champion bred dogs is terribly short.
Champion bloodlines does not mean as much to the average pet buyer as it does to the show breeders that want to win at their hobby. And in turn to sell their show bred puppies. To claim only show dogs are worthy of being bred is pretty darn elitist. I would rather have a real GSD,even if from a "BYB", with decent conformation, health, temperment and longevity, than a champion genetic freak that wobbles its way around the ring and is scared of its own shadow, not to mention dying at horribly young ages from a multitude of inbred, genetic diseases.

The politics of showing are well known, as is the cheating to win at any cost. So no, I don't believe showing is the end all and be all of breeding a decent dog.

There are some problems in some breeds that do have to be tested for every year since they may not show up until the dog is middle aged and has already been bred. In Dobermans a good breeder will test liver function every year as well as do an annual holter monitor looking for early signs of cardiomyopathy.

Lisa

dobesrule, I know Dobes are a fairly recent breed, not sure how old, but I was wondering is there any info on the prevalence of these diseases years ago?

gsdrule, I simply can not agree with you. I think you've just got something against showing, maybe because your dogs aren't good enough to win in the ring.

Let me add that I know plenty of GSDs, and English Bulldogs that don't have the problems that you're talking about. So either you're hanging out with a lot of really bad breeders, or you just don't know what you're talking about. Or you just like to tar all show breeders with the same brush.

No, I don't show, have no desire to. I don't hang out with breeders at all. I just have family pets. What English Bulldog breeders do you know that have free whelpers? That have dogs that don't collapse in a panting puddle when the temp is above 70?
What show GSD's do you know that don't have a back like a ski slope and wobble around the ring on their hocks?

Let's not forget the German lines that have a hump in the middle like a hyena. Look at the old pictures of GSD's and tell me the breeders are doing the right thing. From the '70's to now, it has gotten so bad, it's disgusting. To me and a lot of other people that want a real GSD, like they used to be.