Don't know that area but I have always wanted to to Beaver Creek, Arkansas to camp and fish. It is a beautiful clean lake and I had seem some monster fish some out of there. Have to add that to my wish list of places to go someday. Make sure it has some ammenities so he will feel more comfortable and will take you back again. He migh like it.

resin: Thanks for the tall tree information. Interesting that the Nordmann is reported to grow so tall. And interesting about the Sitka spruce in Prairie Creek SP. I had spend a fair amount of time there and saw some wonderful Sitka spruce there, but I am surprised that one there is so tall. The oldest Norway spruce here, that I have seen and have some halfway reliable information about the probable ages of, is about 180 years. I am sure there were trees planted earlier, but I don't have any specific information and haven't seen them. The oldest forest planting, I am fairly sure, is the "Rothkugel" east on the town of Bartow in West Virginia, on the national forest there. This was not planted as a pure stand, and the Norway spruce are growing in a mixed hardwood stand. They were planted in 1907 on an area that was logged and then burned. They were planted with black locust--all gone now--and European Larch, of which there are a few scattered individuals and groups remaining. I think what happened is most of the planted trees were overwhelmed by the growth of brush and weeds, before they became tall enough to compete effectively. There is no evidence of any of the NS trees dying in this stand--there are some people over here who think NS is not long lived, but these trees are now over 100 years old and seem very youthful. These trees are scattered and in small groups because of factors during their establishment, not because of any subsequent mortality. Anyway, the NS are "head and shoulders" above everything else, and the last time I was there and tried to estimate their height--about 10 years ago--I thought about 140 feet. And they seemed to be growing at about 6 or maybe 8 inches per year. I am not sure how well that growth rate will be sustained. But these trees are growing in a very ordinary soil--I would guess a class 3 forest soil. If they were on a class 2 soil their growth would be significantly faster. And to my eye--and I really have to guess based on a combination of characteristics I can observe--these may not be a particularly good strain. The stand near Glady, WV I describe in an earlier entry here already has taller trees, even though it is about 25 years younger. At Glady the soil is also just a class 3 soil, but the trees seem to me to be of a superb strain for fast growth in that area. The only stands of NS I know of growing on a class 2 soil are the two on my own timberland, and one of those two stands seems to me to be of a excellent strain for fast growth, and the other is not bad. The better trees are averaging growth of 28 inches per year, in spite of the frequent weevil attacks. It is about 35 years since they reached the baseline height of 4.5 feet, and the tallest trees are now 85 feet tall. According to growth curves developed at SUNY Syracuse, their present growth rate will continue for at least another 15 years, but based on my observations at Glady, there will be a slowing not too long after that--I would guess in an additional 10 years or so. Anyway, If I live to be 95 (my father made 98), I will see these trees up to about 140 feet or so. --Spruce

Jsvand5, I don't know of any commercial source for Goose Creek seeds, but two people listed Goose Creek in the 2008 Seed Savers Exchange Yearbook. If you aren't a member of SSE yet, this would be a very good time to join because the 2009 Yearbook is just now going to the printer and will be out in a month or two. The Yearbook is a very good place to look for varieties that you can't find anywhere else, as many members list those for which they have enough seeds to offer. Laurel, there was never any patent granted for Goose Creek, nor will there be. Jimmy Williams applied for a patent on November 11, 2004 but it was never granted. Goose Creek was not "invented" by Jimmy Williams, and as noted above, the stages of ripeness described for Goose Creek are not unique to Goose Creek. Jimmy Williams can apply for a patent if he wishes but he won't get one. The United States Patent and Trademark Office has a public web page at http://patft.uspto.gov/ where anyone can look up patent applications as well as the patents that have been granted, and you will see that there is an application but it has NOT been granted. Anyone who wants to can go to the web page and verify this for themselves. Here is a link that might be useful: 2008 SSE Yearbook

A number of years ago we did the out-and-back Narrows hike in late May or early June (around Memorial Day). Water was moving but current not too strong. It was beautiful but seemed there were a lot of folks out that day and I would like to do the hike again without seeing quite so many people. Same trip it snowed at Bryce Canyon. We stayed at Flanigan's outside of Zion and I would stay there again. There very well might be nicer places but budget was a big factor in our choice of lodging on that trip.