Happy Holidays Vicky & Co.,!!!

???...A QT. of water added to a Gallon?!?!? What the ____ is that painter thinking?? That's a pretty drastic thinning ratio...25%!!! He's absolutely KILLING the "hide" of his paint, not to mention his paint will now soak-into the ceiling even worse!

I'm not sure where the use of the NR-Flat on ceilings got started out there!

Ceiling Paints:
* Usually a "dirtier" white...not as white as "wall-whites"
* Are made to a thicker consistency to minimize spatter.
* NOT considered a "tint-base" because it's not as white.
* C2's Ceiling-Paint, C4150 retails for....~$20/gal.
* C2's NR-Flat........C4000-series retails ~$40+/gal.

Technical Specs's for all C2's paints instruct NO thinning.

Your ?'s:
1) YES, your original ceilings had to have been sprayed.
2) Depends on the painter! Spraying would leave the best/fastest finish.
3) Nothing "hidden" in original finish! Just a good "sprayer-technique"!
4) Primer would've GREATLY minimized the subsequent flashing. BUT...keep in mind also your initial coat wasn't very thick OR even.
5) Pretend you never heard that>>> Adding a Qt. of water to a gallon!!! (See earlier comments in this post)
6) This is tougher! IMO...
* Roll an even coat of primer.
* Hire someone to spray 2 coats of the NR-Flat Pearl.
* NO added water!!!
>>> This will be the BEST finish if you're fussy.
7) Stick to a spray format to ELIMINATE roller-flashing. Only a veteran painter can/should "effectively" use the 18" rollers!
8) Color-matching...the debate never ends! Largely depends on available colorants, AND how precisely they can be metered by the tinter & its software. Lighter colors are even harder, since the amounts are sooooo small!
>>> The COROB tinter C2 stores use is around $20K, & can meter extremely small amounts.

9) This is actually exactly why (in your case!) the ceiling should be sprayed! Find a good spray-person (after you prime!!)....and....End of ceiling problems!!

Faron

Thanks for the info. If I roll primer, then hire a pro to spray the paint on, aren't I risking putting roller edge marks on the ceiling with the primer, that will then show through the sprayed paint? Would it be better to spray the primer also, or would rolling primer be more forgiving than the paint has been for me?

If a pro sprays the paint on evenly (with no rolling) would the primer still be needed? The ceiling is currently painted (flawlessly)--not raw drywall, and there are no areas that need any repairs, so the "blank canvas" is the original sprayed paint. I guess what I'm asking, is if the uneven absorption problem you mention will still create problems, even if the paint will be sprayed on rather than rolled, and/or are there other reasons to prime over the existing ceiling paint before spraying the new paint on?

Also, a few spraying questions--just curious what you think:

1) My husband trained as a diesel mechanic and worked at this trade putting himself through school many years ago. During that time, he had occasion to do body work and paint cars (he says he's painted about 15 cars in his lifetime-but that was a long time ago). He says he can do a flawless spray paint job for a car repair. He thinks he can spray paint ceilings, no problem. I think car painting skills may not necessarily transfer to housepainting skills (though I will say, he can do a flawless sheetrock repair, having worked with bondo on cars in the past). Should I let him try painting the ceilings?

2) If he did try his hand at ceiling spray-painting, what would be the best sprayer to use, considering he's had some experience using a sprayer (on cars), we want to minimize overspray mess (I've heard some sprayers are worse for overspray than others), and mostly, we just want the finished product to look good?

Finally, any advice/tips on fixing the roller edge marks on the ceiling I already painted. Is it okay to hand-sand these off, then have the pro spray the ceiling, or would I just be making a bigger mess by trying to sand just those areas where the marks are?

The basic rule about primer is that it is always a good idea but never necessary. The way you get a ceiling to look good is to have the whole thing wet with paint at an even mil thickness and then to have the whole thing dry down at the same rate. Primer helps accomplish that because the paint isn't soaking into the substrate unevenly because it's sealed and no longer porous. The reason we have such a hard time painting ceilings is that we roll one half and then the other half and clearly the first half has already started to dry when you roll half number two that overlaps with half number one.

Do I think that you need to prime the ceiling if you spray it? No, I think you can get it to look pretty good without the primer, but if you are going to great lengths to get this ceiling to look good and you are going to prep for spraying it, you might as well prime it too.

You can rent an HVLP sprayer or an airless sprayer. HVLP (high volume low pressure) are the ones with little overspray and airless are the ones with a lot of overspray. Overspray probably won't be much of a concern though for you because you need to prep that room tight no matter which sprayer you use. Even with the HVLP you need to cover everything because overspray floats around after the paint hits the air. I would close that room off fully with plastic and tape at the entrances so that overspray doesn't leak out of that room and go all over the house. Also, close off your cold air returns and vents. If your husband has experience spraying I would say he can handle an HVLP because they are so slow it's hard to get into too much trouble with one. But, the key is going to be applying the paint evenly and quickly and then leaving it alone to dry so I'm not sure how much experience I have had spraying to where I could accomplish that but I'm sure I didn't get it on the first few tries.

Yes, you should be able to sand off the roller marks with some 150 grit sandpaper. If you go too far though you may make a hole that will then have to be patched so be careful, especially since that paint probably isn't fully cured.

By the way, as picky as you seem to be about this ceiling, have you considerd a light sand texture? I have done that before where I just mix a very small amount of sand in the paint and then apply it in a very random swirl type pattern with a 4 inch brush. It's just an idea but it can be very subtle to where it is hardly noticeable in certain lighting, but it hides every flaw, lap mark, seams, etc beautifully. Yeah, I know it's cheating.

Paintguy, thanks for the tips.

As we've been pondering what to do, we're leaning toward hiring a pro to do the ceilings, rather than have my husband try it. We had the first guy come to take a look to give us a bid yesterday.

He took a look at the ceiling I painted, and said he thought that my problem was that I was putting even pressure on the roller, rather than putting more pressure on one side so the paint got "pushed" in one direction, rather than squeezing out both the sides.

This makes sense to me for the 3 or 4 roller edge marks I got on the ceiling, but maybe not for what I'm calling the "flashmarks" which is more just a different sheen showing on each separate roller pass. He said he thought the sheen difference was from the even pressure also. What do you think? Would even, rather than angled, pressure on the roller cause flashing?

He said he would roll the ceilings, but I'm still concerned about using C2, given that you and other experienced painters have said you have had trouble with the flashing, as I assume you guys are using the roller with the right pressure--so if you're still seeing flashing, maybe roller pressure is not the reason (?)

If I want to stick with the C2, should I give this painter a miss, and look for one that will spray the ceilings? It sounds like spraying prep is a big deal, so would most painters be more likely to roll than to spray? (We have just bought the house, and there is no furniture in yet, but still, carpets, flooring and fixtures would need to be protected, since the house is empty he said he could spray, but it would cost more). He seemed to think there was no reason to spray, that he could get a flawless ceiling by rolling--I have concerns though, given what you and others have had to say about rolling C2 on ceilings. Do you think I should insist that he spray, rather than roll?

Funny you mention the thing about adding the sand. We have a friend who is a major do-it-yourselfer, who is doing a huge renovation on his house all by himself--he's undaunted by tasks that most would never attempt on their own. In true "renaissance man" form, he is always coming-up with innovative ways of doing things. He has flawless ceilings, and I asked how he did it. He told me he added sand to the paint, and I was shocked, as I'd never heard of that! But it sure looks great!

I think though, if we can get an affordable bid, we'll let a pro tackle those ceilings for us. Having attempted to do this myself, I've gained a real appreciation for the value of hiring someone who knows what they're doing with paint. I think my future painting efforts will be limited to small jobs that involve walls only, when we're not under pressure to paint the whole house quickly in order to move in.

Let me know what you think about having the pro spray vs. roll the ceilings--assuming we stick with C2.

Did the painter say that he can get a flawless ceiling with the C2? Has he used that product before?

The differential in sheen is the C2. When you roll, you want to put even pressure on the sleeve. I don't see how using even pressure would cause flashing. I think what that painter is seeing on your ceiling is something he thinks he can correct with proper technique but he can't because that is the very nature of that product and that is why I quit using it. I'm sure he can get it to look better because he is a pro, but probably not perfect.

Most painters will probably give you a strange look when you ask them for a price on spraying the ceiling. The norm is to cut and roll. Most people don't notice the flashing and lap marks though, so this is a special situation. If you are getting estimates from painters that say they can give you a flawless finish, then I would let them achieve that in whatever way they can. Just make sure you show them exactly what your problem is with the ceiling so they know what is unacceptable.

He seemed to be familiar with C2, though I probably should specifically ask him if he's rolled it on a ceiling though. You're right in that I shouldn't worry about how he gets it on the ceiling, so long as it looks good when it's done.

Do painters typically spray ceilings on new construction? I got to thinking, of the three houses I've lived in during my adult life, all still had the original ceiling paint. Maybe that's why I'm looking for perfection--as I'm accustomed to looking at ceilings that have been sprayed. (Though I always thought they rolled after spraying to gat some "stipple" marks). Is there a way to tell by looking if a ceiling has been sprayed or rolled?

Sorry to be so anal about this, but I'm trying to get a feel for what to expect from a rolled-on finish with a different paint that's not so prone to flashing.

Yes ceilings in new construction get backrolled usually. The sprayer is just a way to get the paint on the walls and ceilings faster. Some guys may spray and backroll the first coat and them lay them all off with the sprayer and not backroll for the second coat. But really the reason new construction ceilings look so good is because they are using that ICI Ultra Hide like I mentioned earlier which is very cheap paint fluffed up with cheap fillers. They are also using thick nap sleeves like 3/4" or even 1". I know that may be funny because a 1" nap is supposed to be for very rough surfaces but they use them because it lays the paint on very thick and you can cover a lot of ground without dipping so much. There are other cheap flats that painters may use for new construction but I bet that is one of the most popular. I don't know how you could tell if a ceiling had been sprayed or not.

How far away is Paintguy from ya Vicky?!?!?
Sounds like he's the man for YOUR ceilings!!

As PG says...stress this with your painter>>> That your expectations are a little higher!!

After your initial coat(s) of NR-Flat Pearl, 2 sprayed coats professionally applied should look pretty stunning!
>>> I'd consider re-priming though first!

Faron

Thanks paintguy (and Faron). I really appreciate all your time advising me on this. I guess I'll get started on seeing if ICI can match the C2 color for the ceilings. I remember before you said that was your favorite for ceilings, but then said the BM might be easier to work with, so I tried BM instead (but the color wasn't a close match, so I did not end-up using it). Since a professional needn't worry about how difficult it might be to use, the ICI is probably the best way to go for the ceilings to look good. Thanks again for all your help!

Vicky...
I hope all goes well!

It'll be tricky though matching the Pearl. I think that one has 5 colorants...out of C2's 16.
Light colors are EASILY influenced by tiny amounts of colorant. ICI doesn't have the same colorants-or as many-to "build" a color with.

Faron

Thanks, paintguy, for the hint about the light sand texture! Preparing to spray sounds very labor intensive, whether or not you prime first.

I. too, will be painting a large ceiling area, over an open floor plan and staircase (with probably 20 ft from bottom of stairs to ceiling.)

I successfully painted 9 ft ceilings in the 2 bedrooms on a ladder with a brush. Took 5 coats, yes, ok, I admit it, on the MBR ceiling, but at least we look up to a beautiful, etheral color from bed! And I ended up creating both colors myself (BM base tinted with artist colors and pigments) because I just couldn't get the colors right any other way.

But the for LR area ... with its high ceilings ... I figured I'd call in the pros.

Thanks for this post. Very useful info.