How many people/ages in the family?

I ask because my Sister-in-law has a similar setup and while I found the long run of the cooktop counter, I did not like how I had to walk the whole way around to get to the dining room table. Due to my 2 young children, we'd eat at the table, and to get anything for them (the next course, or napkins (near the sink) or milk, I found it annoying to have to walk all the way around.
My sisterinlaw uses that huge span of countertop for buffet/party setup; just wonderful.

You may be on the other camp, but I really dislike having my range on the peninsula. I would really move the cooktop/hood.

Amanda

We are just two now but will be having children. We were concerned about having to make the big walk around the peninsula.. we'll definitely have to give that more though. Regarding the cooktop/hood, in this current arrangement there's really nowhere else to put it unless we get rid of the window and switch it with the sink. But then we thought about it and the sink is often a very cluttered area, it's wet, there's dirty dishes that accumulate, or clean dishes drying in the dish rack, dish soap, hand soap, sponge, dish cloth.. it isn't something we want out in the open while the stovetop is used much less than the sink and is clutter free when not in use. What didn't you like about having your range on the peninsula? Thanks!

With or without prep sink. The island also could make a nice home for a micro - yielding a bit more wall storage.

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Another plan to try if you ain't scared of island cooktop is tall stuff on the bathroom wall - pantry, oven. Cleanup and ref on outside wall, cooktop on an 8' long double sided island - no seating.

I like your idea bmorepanic, though I've never had an island cooktop before, what is the concern everyone seems to have with them? My sister in law has one, it seems to be functional, though she has it right at the end of a 8'x3' island. She seems to like it but she also just spent a fortune on her kitchen so I don't think she'd admit if she didn't like it :)

Do you think it would be too cramped to keep the fridge where it was and fit the sink and stove on the same side?

I was thinking of bmorepanic's plan, too. The two corners in the original plan is awkward functionally and creates harder to access storage. You won't need the prep sink if you use the island corner adjacent to the main sink for chopping, etc. I'm not crazy about cooktops on flat islands, either. Mine's on an island, but I have a higher tier behind that partially shields it.

I like Bmore's plan. I would also move the laundry room door farther in and use that little "hallway" for pantry storage. You could build an actual closet on the exterior wall side or use pantry cabinets. It's basically the same way you have it, only the door to the laundry would be after the pantry. The "hallway" would feel more part of the actual kitchen.

You could incorporate a desk drawer into the island. Also, if you sink counter toward the breakfast nook, you probably could put your cooktop there. Mine will be like that. I'll have about 5 feet between my sink and cooktop. You could probably get 4 feet.

how much clearance should there be between counters?

Well I toyed with the large island idea I don't know, it didn't quite look right. I do agree however that having two corners is not ideal and that having only one entry/exit and such a long walk to the kitchen table would likely not work. Here's another idea. I cut out part of the counter, so now there is easy access to the dinner table, more usable counter and storage space along the exterior wall and still a fair amount of roominess inside the kitchen for multiple people to move around freely. The island is 36" deep on both sides. I'm still not sure what problem people have with island stovetops? I did a search and found a few posts from people who seemed quite passionate about it but no one every really explained why :) Sinks in islands are very very common and to me they would be much dirtier/messier/cluttered than a stovetop? I could always move the sink to the left and squeeze in a slide in stove somewhere on the right?

Houseful, I'm not quite sure I understand, do you mean have a door into the "hallway" with the pantry shelves on the left and have another door to access the laundry area at the end of the room?

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No, I mean to eliminate the door that is there. Just have the counter continue into the hallway and it will stop where the pantry starts.

I don't think you want your cooktop that close to the edge.

The last plan doesn't have enough counter to the right of the cooktop. People will be walking through that spot at risk of bumping pan handles, etc.

The other plans, and maybe this one if the cooktop is moved over, seem workable and nice to me. The walk around the peninsula doesn't bother me, as most things will go over it. (And things like napkins could be stored in shallow cabinets facing the dining area.) You should have seen the walk around a peninsula in our last house to get to the dining room on the backside of the sink wall. It really wasn't a big deal. The dining room was an addition and I was just happy to have it. And the pass through we made of the window over the sink served us well, and your peninsula would work the same.

The idea that made me panic was the idea of keeping papers, phone, etc. right by the fridge and under the microwave. I think that would be a valuable piece of kitchen real estate and would hate to have paper mess mixed in.

Bmore's plan is fantastic. The island would be very cool looking and very useful. It think I prefer it, but would figure out which benefits you most in offering adequate storage where you need it most.

I would definitely take the cooktop out of the island/peninsula. Have you thought about putting your fridge at the end of your sink counter against the wall, swapping the dishwasher to the other side of the sink and moving the stove to the micro wall? That way you wouldn't visually close off your sink area from your eating area. You would still have the same amount of counter space for prepping and entertaining. I think having the stove away from kids or company is important. I remember a friend's son climbing up on the counter stools and crawling over to a hot stove... scary. Also, having the stove on the wall keeps the cooking mess out of the buffet area when you are entertaining.

Altagirl but were you refering to the first or second plan or bmore's? I don't understand what you mean about how the sink area is closed off or how moving the fridge would change that? Sorry.

rhome410, Storage is not a concern for us, no matter we do there will more storage than we need. What is most important is functionality.

Thanks!

Agree that you need more space on the edge of your cooktop - is it actually a range? Minimum 14 inches of counterspace on both sides.

No one will be able to pass when the fridge is opened - a wider isle will help when there are multiple people around the kitchen. Will you be able to stand in the aisle and fully extend the freezer drawer. Can't tell it there is enough room.

Perhaps vary your cabinet heights. Perhaps do the corner by the door with some more decorative corner cabinetry. Consider more drawers than doors for the lower cabinets.

I, for one, have loved my past 20 years with island cooktops. Much more social for me than facing the wall. No problems with kids and the island cook-top in our experience. I appreciated being able to cook and not have my back to the action. This is definitely one of those preferences each person needs to choose.

The dishwasher might stop traffic, too, if the door is open. Not enough room to pass.

Thanks for the advice plumeriavine, I moved the cooktop and oven over to the left so there's 18" of counter space on the right side which should be enough. We've really thought about it and we're the kind of people that tend to have a cluttered sink area so we definitely don't want it on the island and I really like the idea of having the cooktop on the island. I know its a love/hate thing and everyone is different but the L shaped island is quite large (it works out to be the equivalent of 11'x3' of counter space) so I can't see splatter being a problem or it being anymore of a danger for the kids than it would up against a wall.

I don't think anyone will be able to pass when the fridge is open, but I don't see it as an issue. They can wait two seconds or go around :) Same with the dishwasher, it will only be open a few minutes a day but it definitely won't be a high traffic area.

We're definitely considering more drawers for the lower cabinets, they seem a lot more functional than doors. What would you recommend for the corner door cabinetry? Or varying cabinet heights?

Thanks!

I really like Bmorepanic's first layout...it puts the refrigerator where it's needed most, near the table area and on the periphery so it's easily accessible from both the kitchen and outside snackers.

The range is protected from casual traffic b/c people will most likely come from the "top", so no going through the kitchen to get to the refrigerator from the table area, etc.

Seating at the island is more conducive to conversation and visiting b/c people are not sitting like "ducks in a row".

The Prep & Cooking Zones are separated from the cleanup Zone.

Future children & current adults will not be at-risk from a cooktop with insufficient safety margins around it (24" sides and back).

Venting will be less expensive and the hood will not be a "commanding presence" in the kitchen and blocking the "view" b/w the kitchen & table area and kitchen & LR.

The hood, if it's at all noisy, will not be "in the ears" of those sitting at the island or those in the table area and, to a lesser extent, the LR.

Greater & more useful expanse of work space on the rectangular island than the "L" island.

I would also have at least a 15" overhang, which I think Bmorepanic has in that layout.

I still don't quite understand the whole safety margin thing. On any cooktop or stove you have a safety margin of 0" on the front. So how does only have 18" on the sides and back create a safety issue that supersedes that fact that there is 0" on the front? Also people say put it up against a wall so that your splatter will go on the wall, again I don't understand. When I cook and things splatter, it goes in all directions not just towards the back and if I'm frying bacon or something greasy it's not going to be on the back burner anyways because I'm constantly tending to it. In my life I have never cooked anything that has splattered more than 12" past the edge of the stove nevermind 18" or 24"? I'd say for 99% of things splatter barely travels a couple of inches. What the heck are you guys cooking? :)

Regarding the hood being an eyesore, I find them to be quite nice visually, I think it adds a nice touch to a kitchen but I guess not everyone feels that way. I was thinking that because the space is so open, it and the drop lights would help create a sense of perimeter around the kitchen. I'd also like to be able to put tile in the kitchen so there's differentiation between when you're in the kitchen and when you're not but with bmore's plan I don't see how that would be possible without it looking bizarre? It's a very open kitchen design in a very open layout, I think when you have an open layout it's nice to have a kind of boxed in feel to your kitchen, so that you feel like you're in a seperate room even though you aren't. Does that make sense? :) We just don't want to take the open thing too far.

I'm not perfectly happy with any of these plans, they all have issues, I think it's back to the drawing board! Might have to change the house layout, the kitchen is too important. I'll be back :) We aren't building for a while so there's time to iron things out.

15" overhang noted! I wasn't sure what the standard was.
Thanks!

Safety with cooktops in front v behind has to do with the activity you're engaging in when in front of v behind the cooktop. Do you cook from the back? No. So your attention is not on the pots on the stove and whether or not the empty burners are still hot. When you're in front, you're generally focused on the burners. I think in your plan it's not a giant issue because of the space you have behind the cooktop, though.

The kitchen plan you originally provided seems to fit your needs and likes pretty well. The fridge is accessible by those in other areas in the house or at the counter, there is good prep space and clean up space. I

My main concern in your house plan is flow. From where are you coming in to plop down groceries? I would like a nice flat counter there. If it's from the front door, then your seating area might be in the way of that. Also, squeezing through two points to get to the laundry room might become tiresome. If you remove the shower in the bath (do you need it on the first floor?) and move it down, you can open into the laundry from that main hall and be more convenient to the stairs without bumping elbows on cabinets and appliances.

Ok I've made some changes but it meant losing the window in the kitchen. Normally I would never do such a thing but there will be a lot of windows in the room. What do you think? I moved the stove to the wall like you all suggested, and moved the sink to the peninsula. We do almost all of our prep by the sink so I guess it makes sense to have it there facing the rest of the room, I'll just have to make an effort to keep it clutter free. I also tried what someone suggested and move the pantry/laundry room back so I could have the pantry cupboards in the kitchen. It's growing on me, I'm not usually a big fan of big pantry doors in a kitchen but they're kind of hidden this way and it keeps the laundry room seperate. Well, what do you think? As always, your feedback is greatly appreciated!

PS. What is the standard overhang for a kitchen counter bench to comfortable accomodate seating?

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And here it is with the pantry as part of the laundry room for comparisons sake. Not sure which I prefer. Again, all finishes are just the program defaults, we're at the most basic design level here :)

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Hi qwib, just a couple of observations:

I lived with a peninsula counter for many years; it was between the refrigerator/sink wall and the kitchen table. I did get tired of walking around the peninsula every time someone wanted more milk, etc. And at a party a guest told me she felt "stuck" on the sink side of the peninsula.

Also, is that little area in the garage near the door in your plan for cubbies (coats, boots, etc)? That would be clever and a nice way to keep the clutter out of the house. Especially if it weren't too cold. (I say this on a snowy day... no one wants to put on cold boots before going outside!) It looks like you have a ton of space in your garage. If it were me, I would make that little space much bigger and wall it off into a mudroom... more a part of being "inside" than out in the garage. I'd want access from the back yard directly into the mudroom and I'd put the sink in there too. We only have 2 kids and 1 dog, but believe me after the kitchen, the mudroom is the busiest part of our house! Some day you'll have not just shoes and jackets, but sports equipment, toys, etc.

Sorry, I know you're focused on your kitchen plans right now... but I would gladly double the size of my own mudroom if I could!

Yes chicasgoans that area outside the garage access door is a closet and a shoerack/bench. I just put that in quickly but that will likely turn into a mudroom with a door to the backyard as I imagine that will be the most travelled path to the yard for the kids. Like you said, I was focused on the kitchen :) If there's one thing everyone seems to agree on it's that we need a mudroom!

Regarding the peninsula, it's a tough choice. We played around with different island configurations and with the whole living area being so open, it just didn't seem like the kitchen had it's own defined space. Does that make sense? We toyed with putting the fridge closer to the garage door area as some suggested but I like where it is, it's literally in the center of the house and easily accessible from all directions. Having it by the garage door also requires an island configuration. My main concern is losing the window in the kitchen, I don't know that it's worth it? I'm definitely aware of the walking around the peninsula issue with regards to fridge access, setting the table, etc.. but I also really like the idea of having such a long continuous counter. It's hard to know what to sacrfice because it's becoming clear that you can't have it all :)

For some reason the photo I uploaded in the previous post isn't working so here it is again, this is with the pantry shelves on the other side of the door in the laundry room instead of in the kitchen.

And here is kind of the idea we'd be going for i guess, though not with such a deep counter :)

Wow imageshack is terrible, sorry for the confusion but nothings loading so I've uploaded the photos to photobucket instead, here are the rest of them:

Hi qwibble,

I can completely understand wanting the kitchen to feel like a separate space, and the peninsula counter and lighting will define it nicely. I also understand not wanting to lose a window. But if I'm reading your plans right, that window would have looked into the garage? Or was the garage moved in the later floor plan? You'll have lots of light from the other sides of the space, so that's great.

I do like your layouts with the sink on the peninsula, esp. the one with the tall pantry in the back corner. I like that it's a short walk from table to sink for clearing dishes. I also prefer the cooktop against the wall (just ask your builder about ventilation for the hood and where it will go. Maybe through the garage roof if there is not a 2nd storey above the garage.)

About using the floor to define space... Some people love their tile or stone floors. Others find them to be cold and hard on the feet and back. Wood is more forgiving and thus more comfortable. Plus, if you drop a glass or a jar, it could survive the landing on a wood floor but will shatter on a tile or stone floor. (I'm speaking as someone who just dropped a full jar of salsa on the wood floor last night. It survived.) I think it would be pretty to keep the wood floors in the kitchen, and if you want to define the space further use an inlaid border in a contrasting wood.

Yes the garage was moved after the window was removed, the window was the only thing preventing the garage access from being off the kitchen. You can see the old plan in the first post in this thread. Regarding flooring, don't let the ugly software tiling steer you wrong :) I didn't change any of the defaults. I must admit I'm not a fan of wood in the kitchen. I really like how tile/stone looks and of course how it can really help define the space in an open concept layout. Plus it's much more resistant to water damage. Not really concerned about the hardness vs wood, my wife and I both walk around in crocs or sandals most of the time. Thanks!

bmore? buehl? anyone else? let me know how i'm doing! i definitely need the experienced feedback, i've never done this before :)

Move the sink further from the corner. It allows people to get to the water or the drain from either side. The way it is right now, the space in front of the sink is shared by the space in front of the range - one person "controls" access to both things. Also, there's not counter edge between the sink and range for prep. This is coming from someone who mostly happily used a 20 inch space.

The sink run of cabinets needs to have a healthy chuck of filler at the corner (if not using a cab designed for a corner) so the the doors and drawers of the sink run can be fully extended and not hit the range. As an alternate to the oversized chunk of filler, consider making the cabinet to the left of the range at least two feet wide.

About the garage-mudroom, with all respect, kids will take the shortest distance! You can plan on them running back and forth out the french doors.

The other plan you might try is putting the garage back where it was and exchange the kitchen and living room.

I see what you mean, how much space do you think we should have between the corner and edge of the sink? In your experience where do you think we're most likely to prep? The big swatch of counter to the left of the sink is nice for someone helping out or baking but I wonder if we'd just end up working in the corner between the sink and stove most of the time in which case should I move the sink over even more? I want a 15" pullout garbage but it needs to be on the side of the sink where most of the prep will be done. Regarding the mudroom, the kids will use whatever path I tell them to use :) The 'mudroom' would definitely get used in the winter, in the summer when it's just sandals or running shoes i'm sure the patio door will be the way to the backyard.

I hope the "power of positive thinking" works out for you in regards to the kids. I am influenced by how little my 6 siblings and I paid attention to anything like that kind of a dream containing 7 well-behaved children in place of the little devils we basically were. :) Its also a heck of a lot of new heated space.

If you switch one of the two end cabinets into the corner - that would be enough to get around 3 feet of counter before the corner. There's a theory floating around that you can't actually use the counters in a corner for prep. I mostly agree with that - the times I've had corners, it's felt too uncomfortable, I couldn't quite get my arms in the right place or something.

Yeah but I don't want the sink in the middle of the island, I want the longest piece of undisturbed counter possible. If I'm not going to prep on the right side of the sink then i might as well just put the sink as close to the corner as possible and prep on the left with 7 feet of counter space? If I put a lazy susan in the corner and move the garbage pull out to the other side of the dishwasher I could put the sink 13" from the corner. That would also move the stove down 13". It's just hard to predict where we'll be most comfortable prepping.

Regarding kids, I don't think we'll have six :) They won't have a choice to get dressed off the garage door in the winter because thats where all their clothing and boots will be. I could wall in a small 8x6 room with a closet and bench/shoerack with an electric baseboard. I live in Quebec, we pay very little for electricity, around 5.5-7c/kwh.

That fine, probly? You need to consider some space to sit stuff down beside the sink - so no closer than about 2 feet to the end.

It will change the seating dynamic a bit (nobody wants to be behind sink). I might take the opportunity for one or two full depth cabinets for the dining room side - possibly one for kid stuff and one for linens, service pieces or china. Or some such things.